HemAssist . What do forumites know?

[Race Radio]

The story I heard, from an Armstrong teammate, was the Lance found the stuff himself. During his research while he was sick with cancer he came across it. He contact the people at Baxter himself and paid a significant sum to purchase the remaining supply.

Wonderboy was very proud of himself. He found the "$hit that kills" by himself, without Ferrari's help. This led him to brag about it to a few people.

While there have been a few reports of HemmAssit being found, in Frigo's bag or in a raid, the fact is it has never been found. It was the holy grail of doping but nobody was ever able to get their hands on it....but Armstrong. Whenever something was found in a raid that could not be identified someone would say it was HemmAssit, but it was not. The fact is the stuff is very difficult to store and transport, you do not just put it in the fridge.

 

[Cobblestoned]

The story I heard, from an Armstrong teammate, was the Lance found the stuff himself. During his research while he was sick with cancer he came across it. He contact the people at Baxter himself and paid a significant sum to purchase the remaining supply.

Wonderboy was very proud of himself. He found the "$hit that kills" by himself, without Ferrari's help. This led him to brag about it to a few people.

While there have been a few reports of HemmAssit being found, in Frigo's bag or in a raid, the fact is it has never been found. It was the holy grail of doping but nobody was ever able to get their hands on it....but Armstrong. Whenever something was found in a raid that could not be identified someone would say it was HemmAssit, but it was not. The fact is the stuff is very difficult to store and transport, you do not just put it in the fridge.

If you often tell storys to yourself there will come the point when you think it is reality.
Armstrong and the holy grail...
Amerika was on moon first, so Hemmassist is best ever drug and holy grail...all other pharmacompanys are amateurs and would never be able to produce something like that. No one elso ever had HBOCs because Frigo didn't.

You should really do a remake "Monty Python/Lance Armstrong and the Holy Grail" together with that movieboy. That would fit.

I really want to play that killer rabbit.

 

[pnwrider]

I thought about the rogue manufacturing process, but then I looked up how hemassist is made. You need to start with a decent amount of human hemoglobin which is then modified, these kinds of drugs are really difficult to make. It's not nearly as simple, as say Viagra, which is just a salt (sidenafil citrate).

There is a good chance Baxter made a large volume of product in trying to get the Swiss manufacturing facility online.

 

[Cimacoppi49]

Feds told SI about HemAssist.


http://twitter.com/nyvelocity

It should be easy enough, relatively speaking, to link the supply to Armstrong. This is getting very interesting.

I'm willing to wager that an indictment has been handed down under seal and that Armstrong can expect to be arrested on his way back into the US. Anyone have a return date?

 

[Mambo95]

I think it's more likely it came from his cancer treatment. I think in his book he says he tried to get the best, new stuff he could? It must be nigh-on 10 years since I read it now though so I might be wrong.

It wasn't used to treat cancer patients. It was used on people who had suffered massive blood loss (e.g victims of shootings, stabbings, industrial accidents etc).

 

[BotanyBay]

I thought about the rogue manufacturing process, but then I looked up how hemassist is made. You need to start with a decent amount of human hemoglobin which is then modified, these kinds of drugs are really difficult to make. It's not nearly as simple, as say Viagra, which is just a salt (sidenafil citrate).

There is a good chance Baxter made a large volume of product in trying to get the Swiss manufacturing facility online.

This is why I think we'll see some deaths. Someone will try and reverse engineer this crap and some idiot will take it and die.

 

[Cobblestones]

The story I heard, from an Armstrong teammate, was the Lance found the stuff himself. During his research while he was sick with cancer he came across it. He contact the people at Baxter himself and paid a significant sum to purchase the remaining supply.

Wonderboy was very proud of himself. He found the "$hit that kills" by himself, without Ferrari's help. This led him to brag about it to a few people.

While there have been a few reports of HemmAssit being found, in Frigo's bag or in a raid, the fact is it has never been found. It was the holy grail of doping but nobody was ever able to get their hands on it....but Armstrong. Whenever something was found in a raid that could not be identified someone would say it was HemmAssit, but it was not. The fact is the stuff is very difficult to store and transport, you do not just put it in the fridge.

ok, my guess that maybe Lim was the connection was just that, a wild guess without any evidence.

What I think makes your story believable is that nobody ever got HemAssist except for Armstrong. I asked a couple of pages ago how Frigo could mistake simple saline (clear fluid) with HemAssist (likely deep red or purple fluid). It only makes sense if no one ever knew how this stuff did look like.

Now I'm not quite sure about the storage problem. One of the selling points of artificial blood or HBOCs is that it's easier to store than actual human blood. We know that infrastructure exists in cycling (Kohl's confession etc.) so HBOC transport and storage should be simpler.

The question which still remains is the contact who sold a whole batch to Armstrong. A simple google search tells me that 117 patients in I think 17 locations participated in the European study. The US study was cut short because of the high number of deaths compared to the control group so we can assume that fewer people need to be considered on this side. This is still a sizable number of people involved, but it's not impossible to track them and interview at least key personal. With some work it might be possible to find out who sold stock of HemAssist to Armstrong. My guess is Novitsky has this information.

I guess when the study was concluded and Baxter withdrew HemAssist, there was some stockpile which was pretty much worthless to the company, but probably someone found a way to make a profit by selling it the Armstrong. What really boggles the mind is how anyone would even consider taking an experimental drug for which the clinical trial was cut short because of too many deaths.

 

[Oldman]

If you often tell storys to yourself there will come the point when you think it is reality.
Armstrong and the holy grail...
Amerika was on moon first, so Hemmassist is best ever drug and holy grail...all other pharmacompanys are amateurs and would never be able to produce something like that. No one elso ever had HBOCs because Frigo didn't.

You should really do a remake "Monty Python/Lance Armstrong and the Holy Grail" together with that movieboy. That would fit.

I really want to play that killer rabbit.

Why is that so difficult to imagine? I have two friends with Parkinson's that are involved in limited clinical trials. They would beg for more but their treatment is limited. You don't think I high-profile case like Armstrong wouldn't attract as much opportunity as possible? Now you're being naive and to discount his willingness to take advantage of that opportunity is even more so.

 

[BotanyBay]

The best part

HemAssist: Not illegal. Not on the banned substances list. So he gets a free pass as far as bike racing goes.

 

[Darryl Webster]

HemAssist: Not illegal. Not on the banned substances list. So he gets a free pass as far as bike racing goes.

Perhaps Im wrong on this but Im quite sure HemAssist woul be covered under generic desciption.
The banned list isnt merely proprietry branded and available products.

 

[BotanyBay]

Perhaps Im wrong on this but Im quite sure HemAssist woul be covered under generic desciption.
The banned list isnt merely proprietry branded and available products.

Starting when, though? I know the rules used to be substance-specific, but are now more generic as far as oxygen vectors of any sort.

 

[DirtyWorks]

HemAssist: Not illegal. Not on the banned substances list. So he gets a free pass as far as bike racing goes.

There was never a question for me about Pharmstrong keeping titles. Look at MLB's records. I don't think there's even an asterisk next to some of them. Pat wants the same outcome. Let the sands of history obfuscate the doping.

Every limited indication suggests there wasn't a test for it either.

This is why I'm waiting for the indictment, or not.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Starting when, though? I know the rules used to be substance-specific, but are now more generic as far as oxygen vectors of any sort.

PDF http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/W...hibited-list/WADA_Prohibited_List_2010_EN.pdf

 

[Doctor Blood]

While I have no doubt Cyclists, including LA, have attempted to and acquired HbOCs and used them, I doubt they have been of significant advanttage.
I could be wrong and time will tell.

One of the problems with HBOCs is that they (as does free hemoglobin) scavange nitrous oxide resulting in smooth muscle constriction and abdominal pain (probably other mechanisms as well). Also pulmonary hypertension. This was a documented problem with HemAssist.

One could see the advantage of these compounds clinicaly- trauma especialy- they could be given by techs in the field without cross matching- reduce blood supply demand. The fact that none have made it should tell you something.

So while I have no doubt these compounds have been acquired and used- I doubt they have been of any utility. I could be wrong as athletes may have tinkered and found a dose that may enhance performance without side effects.

 

[biopass]

I could be wrong as athletes may have tinkered and found a dose that may enhance performance without side effects.

PFC anyone?

 

[Cobblestoned]

Why is that so difficult to imagine? I have two friends with Parkinson's that are involved in limited clinical trials. They would beg for more but their treatment is limited. You don't think I high-profile case like Armstrong wouldn't attract as much opportunity as possible? Now you're being naive and to discount his willingness to take advantage of that opportunity is even more so.

I wouldn't doubt that and never did. But I doubt that it was the holy grale and that this kind of drugs, in this case hemmassist, was only used by the one and only Armstrong. Just read, for example, the articles linked here in this thread.
It's all this exaggeration and possession that sucks. Look, other people are not stupid or were sleeping.

This is what I call naive if you think that.

But anyway, I had a good laugh while I was thinking about Floyd running behind Lance and clapping the coconuts.

 

[Oldman]

I wouldn't doubt that and never did. But I doubt that it was the holy grale and that this kind of drugs, in this case hemmassist, was only used by the one and only Armstrong. Just read, for example, the articles linked here in this thread.
It's all this exaggeration and possession that sucks. Look, other people are not stupid or were sleeping.

This is what I call naive if you think that.

But anyway, I had a good laugh while I was thinking about Floyd running behind Lance and clapping the coconuts.

I agree on the points of exaggeration and that this is not the Holy Grail of drugs...otherwise it would be more widely used and replicated. Lord knows the counterfeiters don't care if latent physical damage occurs from a designer drug so if LA had it; someone else did too. I do find it hard to fathom Lancey being stupid enough to schlep his stock through customs and then involve his teammates. If he didn't have a prescription for it he could be in deep toilettrout. And I don't mean a scrip from Ferrari's pad.

 

[blackcat]

The story I heard, from an Armstrong teammate, was the Lance found the stuff himself. During his research while he was sick with cancer he came across it. He contact the people at Baxter himself and paid a significant sum to purchase the remaining supply.

Wonderboy was very proud of himself. He found the "$hit that kills" by himself, without Ferrari's help. This led him to brag about it to a few people.

While there have been a few reports of HemmAssit being found, in Frigo's bag or in a raid, the fact is it has never been found. It was the holy grail of doping but nobody was ever able to get their hands on it....but Armstrong. Whenever something was found in a raid that could not be identified someone would say it was HemmAssit, but it was not. The fact is the stuff is very difficult to store and transport, you do not just put it in the fridge.

private plane.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Thank you !
Some things I wrote now detailed by experts.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/experts-call-armstrong-hemassist-connection-unlikely

The holy grale

 

[Kennf1]

Thank you !
Some things I wrote now detailed by experts.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/experts-call-armstrong-hemassist-connection-unlikely

The holy grale

Interesting stuff, but right now all we have are sound bites. The guy from Baxter says that because of its side effects, you would only want to use it on occasion. Today he comes out and says he doubts there's a connection with Armstrong. I'm not following his reasoning. When the experts say that HBOCs are not all that effective, what does that mean? That they provide zero benefit, or merely a 5% increase in capacity?

One thing seems apparent, those drugs are not as effective as epo or a good 'ole fashion blood infusion.

 

[Race Radio]

-------

You seem confused again. You say everyone had it now you give us a link that says nobody did.....which is it?

 

[Race Radio]

Starting when, though? I know the rules used to be substance-specific, but are now more generic as far as oxygen vectors of any sort.

1987. It would be banned under methods and/or processes

 

[runninboy]

This is why I think we'll see some deaths. Someone will try and reverse engineer this crap and some idiot will take it and die.

No one would be that stupid.
Here is a little i know just about generics vs name brand drugs.
generics sometimes are made by the same company that produces the name brand drug. When they do it is usually the exact same drug, because it is not so much the "recipe" as the equipment and method of making the drug.
I found out from a prominent neurologists that tolerances of generics are allowed to be more lenient than with a brand name drug.
So much so that a person could take a pill that it is 15% under dosage. and follow that the next day with a pill that is 15% over dosage, a 30 % swing.
Which accounts for some people not responding the same to generics.
On top of that the worst offenders are the slow release meds, getting the generics to release evenly over a period of time is very crucial with people with neurological disorders.

Anyway the point of all this, the recipe of a drug is not nearly as important as the equipment used to make the drug. It cost millions to get the tolerances to where they need to be. Generics are frequently made using equipment not nearly as sophisticated and the end result of such is a poor copy of the name brand.

Only a fool would attempt to manufacturer a drug that in its original form might have contributed to death. Likewise anyone caught distrbuting such drug could be held liable in the event of a death by a user.

 

[lean mean &green]

Interesting stuff, but right now all we have are sound bites. The guy from Baxter says that because of its side effects, you would only want to use it on occasion. Today he comes out and says he doubts there's a connection with Armstrong. I'm not following his reasoning. When the experts say that HBOCs are not all that effective, what does that mean? That they provide zero benefit, or merely a 5% increase in capacity?

One thing seems apparent, those drugs are not as effective as epo or a good 'ole fashion blood infusion.

an obvious discrepancy in the CN article is that they reference research published in 2007 as evidence that armstrong wouldn't have experimented on his own in the late 90's. WTF?

 

[Cobblestoned]

You seem confused again. You say everyone had it now you give us a link that says nobody did.....which is it?

You are lost, rrrradio. What about the holy grale of doping and your movie ?

Keep cool and accept. Read again carefully what i wrote and mean in here and don't turn my words. Understand. Compare with the experts.

Hemmassist was only one HBOC drug of many and not confirmed as the one and only or holy grale. Point.
Many other and perhaps better products of that kind than Hemmasist. Point.
Cyclist had access to HBOCs and used them. Point.
Ask to them how, why or in what combination they used it and if it helped. Should be no problem for you i think.
If, then it was used selectively for hard stages, TTs. Point.
Even good old German Freiburg Uni scientists know HBOCs and studied them. Oh wait. Really. Freiburg. Wait....

You can do it if you want to. Don't be sad. Compare.