How Clean is Columbia HTC?

[Laszlo]

I'm having a hard time buying the systematic doping theory. It seems to me that if that was going on there would be honest people blowing the whistle. Then there is the eventual liability of strange cancers and infant deformities, chromosome damage etc. that gets pegged as resulting from doping that was pushed/ ignored by aministrative controls- the award for damages could be huge, not to mention the bad publicity. The risk never makes sense to me.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I'm having a hard time buying the systematic doping theory. It seems to me that if that was going on there would be honest people blowing the whistle. Then there is the eventual liability of strange cancers and infant deformities, chromosome damage etc. that gets pegged as resulting from doping that was pushed/ ignored by aministrative controls- the award for damages could be huge, not to mention the bad publicity. The risk never makes sense to me.

In cycling you mean?
Guess it depends what you call "systematic".

But let's take 1998:
Telekom - Riis admitted doping in 96, other riders admitted the same (Aldag, Zabel). Freiburg report suggests doping widespread into the team.
Festina - Doping under medical supervision for the team, most riders involved.
Mercatone Uno - Pantani, no need to say more. Police raid in Giro 2001: 6 riders and 7 staff brought in and accused.
Mapei - Had a pretty vocal anti-doping boss. Which discontinued the team in 2002 because the doping issue was getting "larger". Had a few positive riders though.
ONCE - led by infamous DS Manolo Saiz, implicated in Operation Puerto. Organized doping alleged since the nineties. Banned substances found by police in 98 at hotel. Left TdF1998 as a protest against the anti-doping crackdown.
Rabobank - I don't have much memories of doping problems in the 90's for this team, someone will surely correct me.
Casino-AG2R - Alleged that they were to receive some of the products brought by Voet, according to him and Festina riders.
Banesto - Former rider Thomas Davy testifies of organized doping. Left TdF1998 as a protest against the anti-doping crackdown.
GAN - Dunno about that one.
Lotto - Dunno about that one.
TVM Farm Frites - Busted by police. DS, doctor and soigneur convicted of doping.
Saeco - Dunno about that one.
Française des Jeux - Former rider Thomas Davy testifies of organized doping.
Cofidis - Busted in 2004 with allegations of widespread abuse. Team staff implicated.
Polti - Jaksche claims he was introduced to EPO in 97 in said team by the staff.
Asics - Tv crew found banned substances traces in their hotel.
Vitalicio Seguros - Left TdF1998 as a protest against the anti-doping crackdown.
Kelme - Had Fuentes, famous doping doctor, at the helm of their medical staff. Left TdF1998 as a protest against the anti-doping crackdown.
US Postal - Doped riders in the following years of 98.
Riso Scotti - Left TdF1998 as a protest against the anti-doping crackdown. (Not sure on that one though.)
Big Mat Auber - - Alleged that they were to receive some of the products brought by Voet, according to him and Festina riders.

So maybe not systematic but clearly widespread. And yet no one did blow any whistle.

 

[podilato]

You forgot to add the teams Gewiss and Carrera. Have a look on wikipedia for Dr Ferrari, Dr Concconi and Dr Chechini. (I hope I have the spellings right.). It is truly depressing.

 

[Epicycle]

Phonak under Pino and Freuler, Saunier Duval, Liberty Seguros, Quick Step. Surely many more cases of recent systematic doping but those seem very likely top level teams. Euskaltel is a good candidate too. Probably a good portion of Riis and Bruyneel teams also have gotten help from the management.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I was just using the teams at TdF in 98. It's probably one of the most documented period for doping, with the extensive police searches, the Festina trial, etc... plus all we uncovered since.

Lazslo brought up the point that systematic doping would have been blown, but for all we know, doping was pretty widespread in 98, probably since a few years, yet the facade was clean.

 

[Laszlo]

Quite a number of teams listed, but on what evidence ? Individuals busted belonging to certain teams does not mean the team is doping.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

Quite a number of teams listed, but on what evidence ? Individuals busted belonging to certain teams does not mean the team is doping.

Was Manolo Saiz paying Dr. Fuentes for himself?
I did try to leave out individual cases of riders because of that. When the team doctor, the DS, or the soigneurs do the doping, wouldn't you agree that it is team organized?

I'll go through with my list again, by using a narrower definition to please you.

Telekom
Summary of the Freiburg Report by L'Equipe (but you can search for Der Spiegel if you prefer)

In its Monday edition, the German magazine Der Spiegel reveals the findings of a commission of inquiry into the work of two doctors who practiced in the Telekom team. The conclusions are, without doubt, of systematic doping between 1995 and 2006 within the Telekom and the T-Mobile, to the benefit of riders like Andreas Klöden, last team leader of the time (2nd in the Tour in 2004 and 2006 ) to be still active. For two years, the independent commission established by the University of Freiburg focused on the work of doctors Lothar Heinrich and Andreas Schmid, who were dismissed by the University Clinic of Freiburg in 2007 after acknowledging their involvement in doping at Telekom until 1999.

Doping – A well managed system (?)
After hearing 77 witnesses, analysis made on 58,000 blood samples and verification of invoices and other's expense, the commission concluded that "the two doctors had provided and distributed drugs to riders at least until 2006."They were responsible for the purchase of drugs (EPO, growth hormone, testosterone, corticosteroid) from a pharmacy in a town in the Black Forest where they have spent 20 855 euros in 2006 alone ... The doping products were sent to riders, sometimes by express delivery.. The two doctors also oversaw the operations of doping in the premises of the University Clinic of Freiburg also conducted blood tests to ensure that doping controls completed by riders would be negative.

In May 2007 more than 7 Telekom riders has confessed to have used EPO in those years: Aldag, Bölts, Dietz, Henn, Holm, Riis, and Zabel. The 2 doctors from the Freiburg University: Dr. Andreas Schmidt and Dr. Lothar Heinrich, has admitted to make the doping products available for the riders. We are still waiting for the former team manager Godefrot to announce his part of the story. The revelations was all started by the former soigneur Jeff D’hont, that alleged doping was going on from 1992-1998 at Telekom.

http://forum.teamcsc-saxobank.com/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=51898&TOPIC_ID=5013&FORUM_ID=5

Festina
Festina trial. DS, doctor, soigneurs and riders all admitted organized doping. All their testimonies point out that organized doping was in place in other teams, as no riders was surprised once they joined Festina about the system.
System in place from 93-94.

ONCE
This is what Alex Zulle declared to the police in 1998

I acknowledge having made use of EPO for about 4 years ... The first time, I was riding for the Spanish team ONCE. I used these drugs for each important race such as the Tour de France, the Giro, the Spanish Tour, having two injections of EPO 2000 per week, for about 3-4 weeks before each race and for the duration of the race ... While I was part of the ONCE team, this practice of using EPO operated in the same way, and I can say that the 20 or so riders consumed EPO under the control of Drs Terrados and another one called José ... I can't prove it but I think that these days you can find EPO in all the big teams ...

In today's cycling races, every rider knows that if they don't use EPO, they'll be left behind ... . For the first time, during the Tour de France this year, I took growth hormones as well as EPO ... It was Dr Rijkaert who gave me every two days during the first week of the Tour, a dose of growth hormones that I injected myself ...

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/sep98/sep9.shtml

Manolo Saiz, everlasting ONCE DS, was arrested while paying Dr.Fuentes for "services"... autologous blood transfusions.
Fuentes worked for ONCE at one point.

Banesto

"In Banesto, there was a system of doping with medical supervision"

Thomas Davy, who rode with Banesto from 1995 to 1996, told the court. (Festina trial).

TVM Farm Frites
9 of 12 riders positives. Staff convicted of doping in a trial.

Française des Jeux

Francaise Des Jeux also had their soigneur Jeff D’hont implicated in the Festina affair, and Jeff D’Hont was convicted 9 month prison for assisting riders with dope. Even though a journalist found doping trash in the hotel rooms where D’hont treated the riders from Francaise De Jeux, this never had any consequence upon staff or riders on this team.

http://forum.teamcsc-saxobank.com/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=51898&TOPIC_ID=5013&FORUM_ID=5

Add to that... from Festina trial

He added that Belgian soigneur Jef D'Hondt was providing the EPO when he was with La Française des Jeux in 1997. "I know for sure I got the EPO from Jef."

Erwan Menthéour, another former professional (and book writer) said that during his time at La Francaise des Jeux in 1997, his director Marc Madiot simply didn't want to know whether his riders were doping. "Madiot said 'If you test positive, I am not there'," claimed Menthéour.

He too criticised former FdJ soigneur Jef D'Hont ("Mr Dopor"), who is also on trial. "If Marc Madiot hired him for Francaise des Jeux, it was not for his qualities as a masseur, but for his competence in doping matters. That's what he was there for - Madiot is much too intelligent. He did not want to take responsibility for doping," said Menthéour.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/oct00/oct27news.shtml

Cofidis
7 riders on trial. Millar got off with Lelli, on basis that the PEDs were not proven to have been taken on French soil. Millar admitted nonetheless.
A polish soigneur was convicted. He joined the team in 97. The trial brought forward he had brought over 30 Polish riders, encouraged them to dope so that they would make it in teams, and take a cut on their gains (!)
Menuet, team doctor, admitted as a witness he ran into doping problems in 1998 when he joined during the Rominger days.

http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/actualite/2005-06-22-lemonde.htm

I also translate: "The riders, which have all admitted to the facts, assured that the federal instances and the team management knew about it"

http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/actualite/2006-11-06-nouvelobs.htm

Kelme
Here is a summary of Manzano's testimony in 2004 that ultimately became Operation Puerto. Manzano rode from 2000 to 2003 for Kelme. In 1998, Fuentes was the physician for this team as shown here.
Fuentes is a gynecologist but started "following" athletes in the eighties.
Systematic doping at Kelme in 98 doesn't seem too far fetched, wouldn't you say?

USPS
From 1999, Dr Ferrari became an advisor of the team. Do I need to describe his pedigree? He was only cut off when his trial highlighted his doping practices.

I could add a ton of citations from caught riders about how widespread the doping is, but they are so common it wouldn't serve much purpose.

So, I tried to keep the most clear cases of organized and/or widespread doping, circa 98, in the équipe that started the TdF this year (and only them). I did not add up individual cases that are suspicious (US Postal, among others.).

What is interesting, IMHO, is that you have there all the top teams of the time. Telekom: Riis and Ullrich, former two winners. Banesto, former team of Indurain. Festina. ONCE with Jalabert. USPS I do not need to tell their soon to be achievements. Only one or two are missing (Rabobank?). And they all are under suspision of having doping programs, since the mid nineties at least.

I kept 9 teams there. That's more than 1/3 of the TdF lineup that year. Feel free to take a look at the lineup of other teams and play "who got busted since".

On top of that, "organised doping" also occurs besides/over the team: before Fuentes there was Conconi and his assistant Ferrari. All those doctors ran dope rings for athletes, and started giving "advice" back in the eighties. It's not doping on the side, popping up some PED in a dark room. That is a thoroughly organized and supervised doping program. The austrian ring currently investigated and the Freiburg report also shows that medical facilities are used to facilitate doping.
Those 3 doctors alone served as "advisors" or "trainers" for a large part of top riders of this last decade. Their names obviously makes the rounds in the pro cycling community, through DS, doctors and riders. They held positions on several teams as medical advisors.

 

[groverjones]

Wonderful list there, "ThisFrenchGuy", which I think leads to the conclusion that there was systemic doping at least in '98 - '06.
You'd assume that with T-Mobile still doping up to '06, the other teams would have very similar programmes, ableit with higher and higher degrees of skill and subterfuge.
The riders aren't speaking, because they are ALL benefiting from the doping. It's the culture of the team in cycling that I think keeps it all under wraps. The trade team is, I guess, like the pro cyclists family. So much time is spent with each other.
Zabel said in "Hollentour" that you had to trust your roommate, and be willing to share everything with him. These people aren't just your team, they're closer than that.
Cheers.