How did Sastre do it?

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Dear Wiggo said:
Which is incredibly easy to see after the fact, but on the day, in the stage - is that still the decision you think Evans can make? My memory from those stages was the Schlecks were riding strong, on the front.

Personally, I think hindsight makes race tactics incredibly easy.

On the day, it's a call you have to make.
Isn't that one of the purposes of race radio's, to allow the ds to advise their riders of the best plan of action at crucial moments?
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Angliru said:
Isn't that one of the purposes of race radio's, to allow the ds to advise their riders of the best plan of action at crucial moments?
Yes, definitely. Where were the cars when Sastre flew the coop?
 
Dec 7, 2010
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ralphbert said:
IMO Sastre is class as a person. Loved his interview at the 09 Tour after Pharmstrong slagged him.
That was beautiful. It was a scene captured in Cervelo's Beyond The Peloton series.

Responding to Armstrong's remarks about the 2008 Tour being a joke, Sastre said...
"Well, I believe that is not correct. It is his point of view; his words; his life. I'm not interested in any of that. I think he is a great champion. He won 7 Tours de France, a World Championship, and he is a great rider. But behind every rider must be a person. And on that point, maybe he needs to learn something more." :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo7UJf_iOcg&index=12&list=PLCEB86E0F6FAC7943&t=2m55s
 
staubsauger said:
Wasn't Sastre the first big gun to immediately fade away after the Biopassport was introduced? Right before Menchov!
Wasn't the biopass in effect before Sastre's downturn? I mean, the guy was suspect because of the era he was competing in, but he was kind of past it when he started to fade away. At his age, tying it to the biopassport is perhaps a bit too easy.
IzzyStradlin said:
Sastre had attacked early and was solo almost the whole climb.

The Schlecks somehow got Evans in a bizarre cat and mouse. They would jump, Evans would chase, then slow, over and over again.
Fränk was in yellow. Not going to be allowed to go anywhere. Andy had lost minutes but was clearly strong, and Evans couldn't let him ride over to Sastre. Weird race, tactically. So strange the way the Schlecks couldn't forgive Sastre for attacking there, as if Fränk wasn't going to lose a bucketload of time to Evans in the TT. Also Evans' only real ally at that point was Kohl, who had flushed his final bloodbag after being told to tone it down, and it seems Evans took too long to realise Bernhard wasn't able to give him the assistance he needed. The Schlecks also had the aid of Valverde running interference.
 
Libertine Seguros said:
Wasn't the biopass in effect before Sastre's downturn? I mean, the guy was suspect because of the era he was competing in, but he was kind of past it when he started to fade away. At his age, tying it to the biopassport is perhaps a bit too easy.

Fränk was in yellow. Not going to be allowed to go anywhere. Andy had lost minutes but was clearly strong, and Evans couldn't let him ride over to Sastre. Weird race, tactically. So strange the way the Schlecks couldn't forgive Sastre for attacking there, as if Fränk wasn't going to lose a bucketload of time to Evans in the TT. Also Evans' only real ally at that point was Kohl, who had flushed his final bloodbag after being told to tone it down, and it seems Evans took too long to realise Bernhard wasn't able to give him the assistance he needed. The Schlecks also had the aid of Valverde running interference.
Andy was so strong on that stage that I think Evans may have been a little put off. I remember watching him cover every single move easily with a cheeky little smirk on his face and thinking that he can win the Tour in the future.

I still say that the '08 TdF was Sastre's one big chance to bag a big one. No Contador, CERA positives occurring left, right and centre, most of Sastre's contemporaries had been eliminated by Puerto and other scandals and the big juicers were still figuring out the Bio Passport.

If you look back at a lot of press conferences with domestiques that year, many were surprised by how long they were able to hang on in the bigger mountain stages compared to previous years. On the earlier climbs of the Alpe d'Huez stage, the likes of O'Grady, Sorensen and Cancellara tore the field to shreds while riders like VanSummeren and Froome made it to Bourg d'Oisans with the big guns.
 
yespatterns said:
That's reminiscent of a certain sky rider of late though.
Excellent point. Sastre seemed to ride at his own pace, rather than worry about attacking or following someone.

And while we can argue about whether Evans should have known to chase him down, Sastre was incredibly strong (for whatever reason) in that Tour. His time up Alpe is the best of any rider since 2006, and I believe one of only three (Quintana and JRod are the others) under 40 minutes in that period. No one else, including Evans, has even broken 41 minutes.
 
Merckx index said:
Excellent point. Sastre seemed to ride at his own pace, rather than worry about attacking or following someone.

And while we can argue about whether Evans should have known to chase him down, Sastre was incredibly strong (for whatever reason) in that Tour. His time up Alpe is the best of any rider since 2006, and I believe one of only three (Quintana and ARod are the others) under 40 minutes in that period. No one else, including Evans, has even broken 41 minutes.
Well that's because its only been used twice since, and on neither instance did the GT riders truly have a go at it.
 
All this talk about tactics in the Clinic.....are there no mods awake now?:rolleyes:
I seriously had no idea some posters new so much about strategy; most posts make it look like it's all to do with the Clinic:D
 
The little Spaniard with sad eyes dopes?
Sastre responds:


At least the tiny climber beat Froome in the long ITT (52km) on stage 20:
1. SUI CANCELLARA Fabian CSC 1h04'11" 80
2. LUX KIRCHEN Kim THR 40" 50
3. USA VANDE VELDE Christian TSL 44" 35
4. GBR MILLAR David TSL 01'16" 25
5. RUS MENCHOV Denis RAB 01'34" 15
6. AUS EVANS Cadel SIL 01'44" 10
7. GER LANG Sebastian GST 01'58" 5
8. USA HINCAPIE George THR 02'07" 3
9. SWE LÖFKVIST Thomas THR 02'08" 2
10. ESP SASTRE CANDIL Carlos CSC 02'13" 1
11. CAN HESJEDAL Ryder TSL 02'15" 0
12. USA PATE Danny TSL 02'33" 0
13. GER VOIGT Jens CSC 02'37" 0
14. GBR FROOME Chris BAR 02'39" 0

Lets play a game. Name the clean boys in the list above.
 
Apr 21, 2012
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Merckx index said:
Excellent point. Sastre seemed to ride at his own pace, rather than worry about attacking or following someone.

And while we can argue about whether Evans should have known to chase him down, Sastre was incredibly strong (for whatever reason) in that Tour. His time up Alpe is the best of any rider since 2006, and I believe one of only three (Quintana and JRod are the others) under 40 minutes in that period. No one else, including Evans, has even broken 41 minutes.
Agreed. Sastre's time (39:32) was so good it was actually better than his 2004 ITT time (39:57), which raised a few eyebrows, even though his 2006 39:01 is more suspicious.

IMO Sastre had perfectly timed his BB the day before and knew he would be the strongest on Alpe d'Huez, and that's the reason why he attacked at the bottom of the climb to take as much time as possible. The final ITT proves his absolute power at threshold was still very high 3 days later (for his weight)

That's enough to explain his win. Maybe he was also on Fuentes' files but escaped as Contador, Cance and Schleck, maybe he had another doctor like many spaniards at that time (think about Pereiro or Zubeldia, in 2006 they didn't need Fuentes to be in the Tour top 10), maybe he had a suspicious test for CERA wich was covered up for legal / PR reasons (I agree another disqualified TDF winner would have been a nightmare for ASO/UCI)

Sastre's last seasons (2009-2011) were clearly a step down, IMO not because of the biopassport but because of a less risky doping strategy in order to keep his clean (teflon ?) image. Maybe 2011 was clean (20th in Vuelta, 30th in Giro), but come on, 2005, second in rocket-fueled Vuelta behind Menchov :D
 
Apr 21, 2012
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Dazed and Confused said:
At least the tiny climber beat Froome in the long ITT (52km) on stage 20:
1. SUI CANCELLARA Fabian CSC 1h04'11" 80
2. LUX KIRCHEN Kim THR 40" 50
3. USA VANDE VELDE Christian TSL 44" 35
4. GBR MILLAR David TSL 01'16" 25
5. RUS MENCHOV Denis RAB 01'34" 15
6. AUS EVANS Cadel SIL 01'44" 10
7. GER LANG Sebastian GST 01'58" 5
8. USA HINCAPIE George THR 02'07" 3
9. SWE LÖFKVIST Thomas THR 02'08" 2
10. ESP SASTRE CANDIL Carlos CSC 02'13" 1
11. CAN HESJEDAL Ryder TSL 02'15" 0
12. USA PATE Danny TSL 02'33" 0
13. GER VOIGT Jens CSC 02'37" 0
14. GBR FROOME Chris BAR 02'39" 0

Lets play a game. Name the clean boys in the list above.
Interesting.
To only lose 29 seconds to Evans on 53 km at 48kmh, Sastre needed to be within 15 watts behind Evans (with same CdA). 13 watts but 8 kilos less than Evans is exactly what is needed to put 2 minutes into him on Alpe Huez.

Sastre 60kg 13.8km@8% 21.0kmh 376 W 00:39:32
Evans 68kg 13.8km@8% 19.9kmh 390 W +02:15

Sastre 60kg flat 48.0kmh 357 W +00:29
Evans 68kg flat 48.3kmh 370 W 01:05:55

Which means at least 0.5 Watt/kg more. Clean Sastre ?!

(By the way, Froome 2008 ITT would mean 355 watts, quite far from his 400-420 range post 2011...)
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Maybe Hesjedal is a super talent after all. He finished ahead of Froome. As for the game, didn't Lofkvist recently retire because he wasn't getting results or something along those lines or was that Gustav Laarson. To me that could be along the lines of "I've had it and I'm not going down that road."
 
coinneach said:
All this talk about tactics in the Clinic.....are there no mods awake now?:rolleyes:
I seriously had no idea some posters new so much about strategy; most posts make it look like it's all to do with the Clinic:D
How many gts have been won by strategy? It's a part of the sport that's overrated and romanticised.

It's also a weird comment for you to make considering you are a fan of the most tactically inept team in the history of the sport, who's only strategy ever has been to ride as fast as possible until everyone else could not keep up, and who's extreme ignorance of how cycling works actually cost them.a grand tour where they had the strongest rider and strongest team.
 
The Hitch said:
How many gts have been won by strategy? It's a part of the sport that's overrated and romanticised.

It's also a weird comment for you to make considering you are a fan of the most tactically inept team in the history of the sport, who's only strategy ever has been to ride as fast as possible until everyone else could not keep up, and who's extreme ignorance of how cycling works actually cost them.a grand tour where they had the strongest rider and strongest team.
Please explain to me how a tactic that fuels back to back TDF victories can be called 'inept'. When you have the strongest rider, that is the smartest tactic to use. It would be much more accurate to call them one of the most tactically-limited teams in the sport.

In regards to Sastre, I do wonder if the lingering injuries due to his earlier crash hindered Evans just enough to prevent him from following. In my memory, he just didn't seem to have the legs and was laboring up the climb, but YMMV.
 
djpbaltimore said:
Please explain to me how a tactic that fuels back to back TDF victories can be called 'inept'. When you have the strongest rider, that is the smartest tactic to use. It would be much more accurate to call them one of the most tactically-limited teams in the sport.
In races where they haven't been able to simply bludgeon everybody with Froome's and Wiggins' super-strength, though, they have had some tactically super-inept moments.

Such as claiming the roadbook to be their Bible in one of the fawning books about their success, but not reading it enough to know that there was a small climb of 1km @ 10% close to the finish of a País Vasco stage, which had been talked about on the forum all day, and toasting all their puncheurs trying to lead out Appollonio for a sprint (Samu and Purito duked out the two-up sprint, for an idea of the type of finish it actually was). The pursuit of Boonen in Roubaix in 2012 was really boneheaded, leaving Stannard to work alone despite having a number of riders behind him well after the point it was clear he had nothing left in the tank and Boonen's lead was increasing.

Plus, you know, having the man in the leaders' jersey wasted as a domestique in the 2011 Vuelta, having him get dropped on a gradual and easyish MTF, and then lose the GC on bonus seconds.

At times, Sky's success has been despite their tactics rather than because of them, as at times they've disintegrated around Froome or missed moves, but because of how strong Froome and/or Wiggins have been at other points in the race this has not cost them as much as it could.
 
Dazed and Confused said:
The little Spaniard with sad eyes dopes?


At least the tiny climber beat Froome in the long ITT (52km) on stage 20:
1. SUI CANCELLARA Fabian CSC 1h04'11" 80
2. LUX KIRCHEN Kim THR 40" 50
3. USA VANDE VELDE Christian TSL 44" 35
4. GBR MILLAR David TSL 01'16" 25
5. RUS MENCHOV Denis RAB 01'34" 15
6. AUS EVANS Cadel SIL 01'44" 10
7. GER LANG Sebastian GST 01'58" 5
8. USA HINCAPIE George THR 02'07" 3
9. SWE LÖFKVIST Thomas THR 02'08" 2
10. ESP SASTRE CANDIL Carlos CSC 02'13" 1
11. CAN HESJEDAL Ryder TSL 02'15" 0
12. USA PATE Danny TSL 02'33" 0
13. GER VOIGT Jens CSC 02'37" 0
14. GBR FROOME Chris BAR 02'39" 0

Lets play a game. Name the clean boys in the list above.
Uhh maybe Pate but he has never really got close to a result like that again though has no reason to try these days.

Team breakdown is pretty funny I guess.
 
The Hitch said:
How many gts have been won by strategy? It's a part of the sport that's overrated and romanticised.

It's also a weird comment for you to make considering you are a fan of the most tactically inept team in the history of the sport, who's only strategy ever has been to ride as fast as possible until everyone else could not keep up, and who's extreme ignorance of how cycling works actually cost them.a grand tour where they had the strongest rider and strongest team.
Not a fan, no, never liked the way they ride, though I've always liked some riders like wiggins, cav, & EBH ( none of whom are really with Sky anymore)

I agree with you about stratagy costing Sky the Vuelta in '11: doesn't that disprove your point about it being overrated?
 
May 8, 2009
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Libertine Seguros said:
In races where they haven't been able to simply bludgeon everybody with Froome's and Wiggins' super-strength, though, they have had some tactically super-inept moments.

Such as claiming the roadbook to be their Bible in one of the fawning books about their success, but not reading it enough to know that there was a small climb of 1km @ 10% close to the finish of a País Vasco stage, which had been talked about on the forum all day, and toasting all their puncheurs trying to lead out Appollonio for a sprint (Samu and Purito duked out the two-up sprint, for an idea of the type of finish it actually was). The pursuit of Boonen in Roubaix in 2012 was really boneheaded, leaving Stannard to work alone despite having a number of riders behind him well after the point it was clear he had nothing left in the tank and Boonen's lead was increasing.

Plus, you know, having the man in the leaders' jersey wasted as a domestique in the 2011 Vuelta, having him get dropped on a gradual and easyish MTF, and then lose the GC on bonus seconds.

At times, Sky's success has been despite their tactics rather than because of them, as at times they've disintegrated around Froome or missed moves, but because of how strong Froome and/or Wiggins have been at other points in the race this has not cost them as much as it could.
Not sure not backing Froome in 2011 is that inept, every man and his dog was predicting he would fade in the 3rd week.
 

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