How Fitting

[El Pistolero]

Crikey, this thread is bonkers!

I am a British national born in England, which is a part the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

And that's "Great" as in "Wider" not as in "Brilliant".

To call His Bigness Sir Ship A Hoy "British" is correct but quite general as it goes to his nationality. To call him a "Scot" is also correct and more specific as it goes to his domicile.

Today I live in Bruxelles/Brussel/Brüssel, an administrative region, an administrative city, originally a Flemish city and now the capital of Belgium (which consists of the Flemish and Walloon and German administrative regions a plethora of original kingdoms and duchies) and unofficially of the European Union of which there are 27 Member States each with its own capital and 23 official and 3 unofficial languages spoken. All of which is much harder to deal with.

Flanders of the middle ages and early modern times is not the same as the Flanders of now. Brussels was never part of the county of Flanders, but of the Duchy of Brabant. After Belgium declared its independence Brussels was made the capital of Belgium. Brussels was a city were most people spoke Dutch(this is what you meant), and the Walloons migrated to it during the 19th century and now most people speak French in it.

 

[L'arriviste]

Flanders of the middle ages and early modern times is not the same as the Flanders of now. Brussels was never part of the county of Flanders, but of the Duchy of Brabant. After Belgium declared its independence Brussels was made the capital of Belgium. Brussels was a city were most people spoke Dutch(this is what you meant), and the Walloons migrated to it during the 19th century and now most people speak French in it.

Yes, I'm aware of that. It's just that certain of my Flemish friends consider it a Flemish city and I was deliberately trying to make my post as confusing as possible. Without wanting to go too far OT, I read an interesting book recently in which the author explained that Flanders has never really existed - it is just a collection of ideas, feelings and traditions. From all I've learned to date as a foreigner in this fine place, that's the view I take. And to most of us who are reasonably tolerant - as with the British, English, UK thing - it doesn't matter so much.

 

[blutto]

...in a related issue I found it interesting that pre-drug scandal David Millar was usually referred to as either British or English( despite numerous protestations by him to the contrary)...post scandal there was a greatly increased tendency to have him tagged as a Scot...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Pharazon]

...in a related issue I found it interesting that pre-drug scandal David Millar was usually referred to as either British or English( despite numerous protestations by him to the contrary)...post scandal there was a greatly increased tendency to have him tagged as a Scot...

Cheers

blutto

or, it might be there's lots of talk about him being a scot at the moment because he fought for a year to get his Scottish ban overturned so he could compete in the Commonwealth game for SCOTLAND..

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Is it really though? I don't differentiate between Wiggins being "English" and Millar being "British". They're both British to me.

to you it is and maybe most in europe but to people inside the uk it isn't. scotish people don't like to be seen as english and when they are called british many make the mistake of also calling them english.

 

[blutto]

or, it might be there's lots of talk about him being a scot at the moment because he fought for a year to get his Scottish ban overturned so he could compete in the Commonwealth game for SCOTLAND..

...nawww...it started immediately after he was "disgraced"...which would have been several years ago...

Cheers

blutto

 

[euanli]

When you are winning you are British, when you are losing you are Scottish.

Case example the London based British media's reporting of Andy Murray this summer. Even going to the extent of claiming he was English because he lived in Sussex.

 

[Andy99]

 

[pedaling squares]

The Channel Islands and Isle of Man are not part of Britain nor the UK so I guess they're getting even further ripped off when their victories are considered British. I was born in Guernsey and have to prove my connection to the UK via my parents' births to obtain a UK passport. I think Teamskyfans linked to a chart that explains all this on another thread that had equally little to do with professional road racing. I found this but didn't look further. So who gets credit for my recent victory in the Hungry Hamster Hill Climb and Sausage Eating Contest? The Bailiwick of Guernsey, the UK, or Canada? Or should England get the glory as they are the unofficial heart of the Commonwealth?

 

[El Pistolero]

Perhaps the racer should get the glory?

 

[*G*K*S*]

So are "whinging poms" just the English, or is the entire UK included?

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Yes, I'm aware of that. It's just that certain of my Flemish friends consider it a Flemish city and I was deliberately trying to make my post as confusing as possible. Without wanting to go too far OT, I read an interesting book recently in which the author explained that Flanders has never really existed - it is just a collection of ideas, feelings and traditions. From all I've learned to date as a foreigner in this fine place, that's the view I take. And to most of us who are reasonably tolerant - as with the British, English, UK thing - it doesn't matter so much.

Flanders did exist(was it Marc Reynebeau you were reading), it was a 'country' ruled by a count(de graaf van Vlaanderen)
Here is a map when it was at it's biggest(being 1100AD)

 

[ferryman]

Chris Hoy and all the other Non-English are all on British Passports (and so are all the English for that matter). They're not on Scottish or Welsh passports as such things don't exist.

Neither Scotland nor Wales are independant nations in their own right - the Kingdom of Scotland ceded its independence to the English back in the 1700's and have never received it back. Wales is only a principality.
This may be why at international events they all compete as Team GB??
(The only reason that the World Cup is different was due to trying to increase numbers in its formation many years ago.)

Sigh. Get a history lesson. No wonder hackles get raised. It was called the Act of the Union passed by both parliaments in 1707 (so England in your view also ceded its independence to Scotland) which is in the 18th century. I won't patronise you further by explaining what union means but you can google it if you want. For the record NO foreign King or Queen ever sat on the Scottish throne but how many Scottish Kings and others (eg Canute) have on the English?

Not a thread for a cycling forum so I am oot on this one.

 

[TheDude]

Actually primo, it's goes back to a form of propaganda instilled by the british regime way back. If its a person from Northern Ireland Scotland, Wales or Isle of Mann and Jersey wins. No credit goes to that particular area. But 'Britain gets the glory. Now if it's an english winner then England get the glory. I never hear Manchester United being called British. Yet Celtic FC from Scotland are known as the first british winners of the European Cup?? Not first scotish winners??. Untill this mentality is changed then many will speak out about it. Its nothing personnal. Just business.

That is because Man U are a bunch of pu$$ies. Manchester City all the way!

 

[L'arriviste]

Flanders did exist(was it Marc Reynebeau you were reading), it was a 'country' ruled by a count(de graaf van Vlaanderen)
Here is a map when it was at it's biggest(being 1100AD)

That's also true, but I think the point I was trying to make was that even then what we think of as Flanders and Flemish was much bigger than the actual area ruled by the Graaf. So a histogeographical unit that encompasses a unanimously held concept of "Flanders" has never really existed. It's not a political statement, just one academic's observation with which I tend to agree in default of better knowledge on my part and a better argument on the part of others. The writer was a Gentenaar called Andre De Vries.

 

[Archibald]

Sigh. Get a history lesson. No wonder hackles get raised. It was called the Act of the Union passed by both parliaments in 1707 (so England in your view also ceded its independence to Scotland) which is in the 18th century. I won't patronise you further by explaining what union means but you can google it if you want. For the record NO foreign King or Queen ever sat on the Scottish throne but how many Scottish Kings and others (eg Canute) have on the English?

Not a thread for a cycling forum so I am oot on this one.

ah, Scots, gotta love 'em, eh?

dilligaf about kings n queens. the silly fact is that you're all British, the rest is just defunct nations that were combined into an actual nation. Remember that your "empire" was British, not English or Scottish or Welsh...

Next we'll have the Geordies claiming to be an independant nation or even Essex doing it... Let it go, you're British, so deal with it and stop living in the past.

The bottom line of all this discussion on whether an athlete is British, English, etc... is simply thick-as-sh*t journo's in the UK

 

[L'arriviste]

The bottom line of all this discussion on whether an athlete is British, English, etc... is simply thick-as-sh*t journo's in the UK

Yes indeed!

 

[Andy99]

ah, Scots, gotta love 'em, eh?

dilligaf about kings n queens. the silly fact is that you're all British, the rest is just defunct nations that were combined into an actual nation. Remember that your "empire" was British, not English or Scottish or Welsh...

Next we'll have the Geordies claiming to be an independant nation or even Essex doing it... Let it go, you're British, so deal with it and stop living in the past.

The bottom line of all this discussion on whether an athlete is British, English, etc... is simply thick-as-sh*t journo's in the UK

Excellent post.

 

[Fester]

ah, Scots, gotta love 'em, eh?

dilligaf about kings n queens. the silly fact is that you're all British, the rest is just defunct nations that were combined into an actual nation. Remember that your "empire" was British, not English or Scottish or Welsh...

Next we'll have the Geordies claiming to be an independant nation or even Essex doing it... Let it go, you're British, so deal with it and stop living in the past.

The bottom line of all this discussion on whether an athlete is British, English, etc... is simply thick-as-sh*t journo's in the UK

That wouldn't go down too well will most British people. I agree that small separate nations are sort of obsolete within the EU, but most people still feel independent.

 

[El Pistolero]

That's also true, but I think the point I was trying to make was that even then what we think of as Flanders and Flemish was much bigger than the actual area ruled by the Graaf. So a histogeographical unit that encompasses a unanimously held concept of "Flanders" has never really existed. It's not a political statement, just one academic's observation with which I tend to agree in default of better knowledge on my part and a better argument on the part of others. The writer was a Gentenaar called Andre De Vries.

That's nationalism for you. The Flemish national holiday for example is on the day of the Guldensporen Slag. As if that battle was a war of the French vs. the Flemish/Dutch. The thing those people tend to forget though is that the Count of Flanders and all the aristocrats of Flanders spoke French. The Guldensporen Slag used to be a national holiday for Belgium before federalism became popular in Belgium. The only reason why it became a holiday in the first place was because after the independence of Belgium France was the big enemy of us. If we would have declared our independence during WWI or WWII we would have picked another similar battle like the Guldensporen Slag, but with the Kaiser of the First Reich attacking one of the counties that existed in modern day Belgium(forgot the name of the battle and the county he attacked, but I think the Walloons made it into a holiday).