How is Valverde still racing?

[dolophonic]

Fair play...

 

[Bala Verde]

things are perceived differently here in Europe. Especially in the traditional cycling countries, Belgium, France, Italy, Spain.

by you I hope, because I don't think you can generalize what 'Europeans' think (which you sort of admit by dividing up Europe in different countries)

Because frankly the way you talk about cycling seems to be from that naive perspecive that we often hear form Down Under or the US, where many are under the impression that below the surface things are really not as dirty as they are portrayed.

This is like saying "YOU don't know what the hell you are talking about"

Really such cultural differences represent New world candor vs. Old world cynicism.

What have cultural difference to do with accusing riders, without having evidence that they did or without the conviction that they were in fact guilty? Someone who does not want to pass judgement before a rider is caught, tried and sanctioned, does not necessarily accept the premise that everyone in the peloton is therefore clean. It's the assumption of innocence that counts which you conveniently sweep under the carpet.

I bet you would not want to be called a doper for the mere fact that you occassionaly ride a bike, by those outside the cycling scene, since they believe that every biker is a doper.

And frankly I put more faith in what the Italians or the French say and in my own experiences. They know and I've been inside and competing within the Euro scene for 15 years now after 6 years in the US and, so, have formed my opinions based on this long experience. I have been around team doping I have known about Dr. Santucci from teammates who went to him, before he became notorious in regards to the Di Luca affair. I have seen the wives deliver la roba in igloo containers to the hotel to avoid the police, etc.

So you are experienced, that's great! Enlighten us with your stories, but try not to claim authority over what's going on and how people should perveive matters, just because you have been there. It suffocates the discussion and prevents people from making valuable contributions to a discussion

In any case, my job isn't to bring the "facts" into the discussion nor to sanction anyone. That is for the courts.

But hey, a second ago you said you knew people in the doping scene, saw trafficking and expereienced it all around you. You stated that as a "matter of fact", and more interestingly, you seem to value those facts over the "facts" of legal judgments.

I'm simply convinced that a Liege Bastone Liege winner in the last decade was doped.

1999 VDB (?) he admitted he used something in that particular race, so you yes you are right.

And one doesn't need court convictions, nor the "facts" to know what is going on.

You do need court convictions to prove that someone doped. You don't need them to know what's going on.

 

[Bala Verde]

Just a few decades ago the Spaniards where nobody in the world of sport, but since Indurain, Reale Madrid, Nadal, Contador etc. have practically become the darlings of European sports.

1) A few decades ago Spain was a dictatorship ruled by Franco.
2) Real Madrid won the Champions League from 1955 till 1960, in 66 again. So they were clearly NOT a nobody.

Soccer has changed a lot (there is much to dislike) but to say that Real is a 'spanish' team is overstating it. Many people will agree that they turned into an assembly of stars (ie the 'galacticos'). Few of them are Spanish so even if they doped, it was a collection of athletes with different origins, and they did so under the backward doping regulations of the FIFA.

3) One of the few Spanish tennis players who has been able to compete consistently at the highest level on multiple surfaces is a doper, because he is at the top and Spanish? If his nationality had anything to do with doping, don't you think more Spanish players would be up there?

Maybe we should just assume that he is extraordinarily talented.

 

[rhubroma]

1) A few decades ago Spain was a dictatorship ruled by Franco.
2) Real Madrid won the Champions League from 1955 till 1960, in 66 again. So they were clearly NOT a nobody.

Soccer has changed a lot (there is much to dislike) but to say that Real is a 'spanish' team is overstating it. Many people will agree that they turned into an assembly of stars (ie the 'galacticos'). Few of them are Spanish so even if they doped, it was a collection of athletes with different origins, and they did so under the backward doping regulations of the FIFA.

3) One of the few Spanish tennis players who has been able to compete consistently at the highest level on multiple surfaces is a doper, because he is at the top and Spanish? If his nationality had anything to do with doping, don't you think more Spanish players would be up there?

Maybe we should just assume that he is extraordinarily talented.

I'm not sure what winning a few Champions leages in the 50's and 60's has to do with what I said. Look, it's painfully obvious that the Spaniards are covering up for their athletes with the Puerto scandal. Whereas it is irreffutable that Valverde has doped given the Coni DNA match. And I have nothing against Spain, but in the realm of the fight against doping the nation is shameful. And some Spanish journalists from El Pais and El Munde, quoted in Italy's la Reppublica which I read, have said as much: namely that while countries like Italy are taking the war against doping and their own athletes seriously (Basso, Scarponi, etc.), the Spanish official bodies are working on a principle of scandalous omerta.

 

[Angliru]

Look I'm not sure where you're from (Australia would be my first bet, if not the US), but let me tell you things are perceived differently here in Europe. And one doesn't need court convictions, nor the "facts" to know what is going on. So again believe whatever you want.

I'm from Michigan by the way. I'm not sure where you get your perception of my point of view as being naive when I simply state that you choose to respond to those posing legitimate questions with how superior your knowledge and experience is in the sport. Why not share some of this vast knowledge and experience with us naive Americans and Australians? Enlighten us and uplift us from this darkness of ignorance that we're mired in oh wise one.

I am far from being naive about a sport that I've followed for & competed in off and on for 20 plus years. I may not have the first hand European knowledge that you claim to have but I also have no illusions about the depth of the problems that exist in cycling. My obvious bias is likely showing in that I'm a fan of Spanish cycling and Valverde and regardless of whether he is now on the juice, based on your so-called first hand (or second hand) knowledge, and such detailed investigations into the history (past and recent) of cheating in the sport that I've read, he would be in a high percent of a peloton that maybe or might have been on something.

You must be blessed to have such intuitive powers to know precisely who is doped and who isn't and then take offense when someone questions as to how you know this. Share with us your vast insights so that we all can have an ounce of the wisdom and knowledge that you claim to possess.

Also its curious to see in another thread how on our 2 posts our opinions on how Evans lost the Tour last year are quite similar although posted hours apart with mine being the first one posted. Its refreshing to see that you can read and learn without shame from those that are so inferior to your massive cycling intellect.

 

[rhubroma]

I'm from Michigan by the way. I'm not sure where you get your perception of my point of view as being naive when I simply state that you choose to respond to those posing legitimate questions with how superior your knowledge and experience is in the sport. Why not share some of this vast knowledge and experience with us naive Americans and Australians? Enlighten us and uplift us from this darkness of ignorance that we're mired in oh wise one.

I am far from being naive about a sport that I've followed for & competed in off and on for 20 plus years. I may not have the first hand European knowledge that you claim to have but I also have no illusions about the depth of the problems that exist in cycling. My obvious bias is likely showing in that I'm a fan of Spanish cycling and Valverde and regardless of whether he is now on the juice, based on your so-called first hand (or second hand) knowledge, and such detailed investigations into the history (past and recent) of cheating in the sport that I've read, he would be in a high percent of a peloton that maybe or might have been on something.

You must be blessed to have such intuitive powers to know precisely who is doped and who isn't and then take offense when someone questions as to how you know this. Share with us your vast insights so that we all can have an ounce of the wisdom and knowledge that you claim to possess.

Also its curious to see in another thread how on our 2 posts our opinions on how Evans lost the Tour last year are quite similar although posted hours apart with mine being the first one posted. Its refreshing to see that you can read and learn without shame from those that are so inferior to your massive cycling intellect.

Nope, I can't enlighten anyone. Enlightenment comes from within...
As far as my past experiences go, they're mine, so I get to keep them. And as far as the Evans cirtique goes, I just write what I think independently. If it happened to jive with yours, it was purely coincidental.

 

[rhubroma]

Now the Italians aren't without fault. After Ricco, Sella and Piepoli were found to have doped and a test for CERA that prior to the Tour was thought to not exist, they were given the choice to retest the samples from the Giro and chose not too. Doubtless that had they tested those samples, more riders would have been found to have used CERA, but I don't believe there would have been any legal standing to pursue prosecuting them. It would have at least alerted the sport to who else was using this latest form of EPO.

Wait a minute, that was the race organizations decision not Coni's. Only the Giro board can request the retesting of samples. But with Zommegan at the helm and his business interests, that aint gonna happen. Certainly the Italians are with fault, but at least Coni and Nas are serious. I don't see a similar comportment, though, coming out of Spain. To the contrary.

 

[rhubroma]

by you I hope, because I don't think you can generalize what 'Europeans' think (which you sort of admit by dividing up Europe in different countries)



This is like saying "YOU don't know what the hell you are talking about"




What have cultural difference to do with accusing riders, without having evidence that they did or without the conviction that they were in fact guilty? Someone who does not want to pass judgement before a rider is caught, tried and sanctioned, does not necessarily accept the premise that everyone in the peloton is therefore clean. It's the assumption of innocence that counts which you conveniently sweep under the carpet.

I bet you would not want to be called a doper for the mere fact that you occassionaly ride a bike, by those outside the cycling scene, since they believe that every biker is a doper.



So you are experienced, that's great! Enlighten us with your stories, but try not to claim authority over what's going on and how people should perveive matters, just because you have been there. It suffocates the discussion and prevents people from making valuable contributions to a discussion



But hey, a second ago you said you knew people in the doping scene, saw trafficking and expereienced it all around you. You stated that as a "matter of fact", and more interestingly, you seem to value those facts over the "facts" of legal judgments.



1999 VDB (?) he admitted he used something in that particular race, so you yes you are right.



You do need court convictions to prove that someone doped. You don't need them to know what's going on.

It's obvious I've become the most unpopular guy in this forum. I have nothing to explain, nor tell, nor demonstrate. Though if my views are so controversial/unpopular here, then let it be known I have never had any problem in similar discussions with the Italians I have hung around with in the cycling community for the last 15 years. Perhaps I'm not likeable too, but this is cultural more than anything else.

 

[franciep10]

It's obvious I've become the most unpopular guy in this forum. I have nothing to explain, nor tell, nor demonstrate. Though if my views are so controversial/unpopular here, then let it be known I have never had any problem in similar discussions with the Italians I have hung around with in the cycling community for the last 15 years. Perhaps I'm not likeable too, but this is cultural more than anything else.

Yes you have a lot of experience but stop acting high and mighty and that you know more than everybody else, I have worked in the cycling community for 12 years but I dont act like i have more knowledge than somebody involved in cycling 2 months ago. this is a forum everybody has their own opinions

 

[Angliru]

It's obvious I've become the most unpopular guy in this forum. I have nothing to explain, nor tell, nor demonstrate. Though if my views are so controversial/unpopular here, then let it be known I have never had any problem in similar discussions with the Italians I have hung around with in the cycling community for the last 15 years. Perhaps I'm not likeable too, but this is cultural more than anything else.

I don't know how you equate 2 people disagreeing with you with you suddenly being the most unpopular guy in the forum. Don't have a pity party.

This isn't a popularity contest, its simply a forum. I think the tone of condecension in your posts are what put some people off. Its not your views that are controversial its how you argue your points while feeling the need to denigrate those that don't agree with you. I felt my question about Valverde was valid and yet instead of answering you chose to go into a tirade about questioning where I was from (it clearly shows as "Michigan") and then generalizing the naive nature of Americans and Australians as it pertains to cycling. That sounds to me like a generalized insult of 2 nationalities. Then you start a response to one poster with "Sir" and then proceed to call the poster an "amateur".

Its like our sport: if you haven't been dropped then you're riding with the wrong people. There is going to be someone(s) out there with more knowledge than you and more experience. Its the one who can graciously share that knowledge and experience without being condescending that gain the most acceptance and most importantly, that people are inclined to listen to.

 

[rhubroma]

I don't know how you equate 2 people disagreeing with you with you suddenly being the most unpopular guy in the forum. Don't have a pity party.

This isn't a popularity contest, its simply a forum. I think the tone of condecension in your posts are what put some people off. Its not your views that are controversial its how you argue your points while feeling the need to denigrate those that don't agree with you. I felt my question about Valverde was valid and yet instead of answering you chose to go into a tirade about questioning where I was from (it clearly shows as "Michigan") and then generalizing the naive nature of Americans and Australians as it pertains to cycling. That sounds to me like a generalized insult of 2 nationalities. Then you start a response to one poster with "Sir" and then proceed to call the poster an "amateur".

Its like our sport: if you haven't been dropped then you're riding with the wrong people. There is going to be someone(s) out there with more knowledge than you and more experience. Its the one who can graciously share that knowledge and experience without being condescending that gain the most acceptance and most importantly, that people are inclined to listen to.

Pitty party, please. And I don't care to be listned to, just want to express my opinion. But as it stands, I don't even know why the hell I've been participating in this shabang. Look, all I can say, is that if you had lived and raced for 15 years in Italy, your "awareness" of certain things in cycling would be different. Apart from this, if a cultural difference exists, and it does, what's the problem? It's like saying there's a mafia issue in Italy, and it is also cultural. Any normal Italian wouldn't protest, but agree. Usually, in these cases, when one's culture (or nation) is placed under discussion, if the response is a major attacking of the critic: it usually betrays a fragile state of insecurity.
That I don't have one, means my consciense is clean.

 

[Bala Verde]

I'm not sure what winning a few Champions leages in the 50's and 60's has to do with what I said. Look, it's painfully obvious that the Spaniards are covering up for their athletes with the Puerto scandal. Whereas it is irreffutable that Valverde has doped given the Coni DNA match. And I have nothing against Spain, but in the realm of the fight against doping the nation is shameful. And some Spanish journalists from El Pais and El Munde, quoted in Italy's la Reppublica which I read, have said as much: namely that while countries like Italy are taking the war against doping and their own athletes seriously (Basso, Scarponi, etc.), the Spanish official bodies are working on a principle of scandalous omerta.

First, because you make it look like every thing Spanish is doped up so badly and that that is the only reason for getting good results in multiple sports. From soccer to tennis to cycling.

You mentioned Real Madrid's recent 'suprising' achievements in connection with OP, but they are far from surprising. Real Madrid is one of the greater teams in Europe, and a possible reason for that is that it was Franco's favorite team. Maybe the foundations for future succes were already laid in that era, in terms of greatness, winning prizes and getting exposure in Europe and the world. It's not surprising that Real is one of the teams with highest merchandise revenue, and the profit they make/made are/were invested in expensive transfers, from Zidane, Ronaldo to Beckham and Figo.

The fact that Spain had little athletic success in the past while it has enormous success in the present, does not necessarily explain that OP in particular and doping in general are the (only) reasons for the change. That's a logical fallacy of the post hoc ergo propter hoc-type. An alternative explanation might be that the Franco regime prevented a decent sports infrastructure from emerging.

As you can see in Australia, a country pretty competitive during the Olympics, they are hailed for their focus on top sport. The facilities, the funding, the benefits and training opportunities they offer their athletes seem to contribute to making a country with no more than 22 million people competitive in a range of different sports. Could such shift in focus not have been the case in Spain, and if it has, could that not account for increased success?


And really... taking it seriously in Italy? Their judicial system is clogged up into eternity. The greatest of all crooks in that country, the P-M himself, walked away, even though one of his lawyers committed perjury. That was a case of 'mere' fraud, not even dealing in prohibited substances! Before they can actually get to send anyone to jail for involvement in doping, it'll be 2115. Aren't Dr. Conconi, Cecchini, Ferrari, and Grazi,all in business, in the medical (sports) profession?

Just don't make it look as if Italy is holier than the pope for having suspended Ricco, Basso etc.

(I just checked ferrari's website http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=front and he is still doing well)


PS> I am not American, I am European, Dutch to be exactly.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I for one have no problem with your opinions, as long as you state them as such. For example, you may want to word something like, "it's my opinion that it's obvious the Spanish are covering up for their doping in sports" as opposed to "it's a fact that the Spanish..."

You're making insinuations and treating them as facts with no room for disagreement.

Whereas it is irrefutable that Valverde has doped given the Coni DNA match.

Well, he certainly had his blood drawn and treated, probably four years ago. At that time it's my opinion that the majority of riders were doping. But that doesn't equate to any sort of actual proof that he's been doping since. Only opinion. Yours that he is, mine that he's either not, or isn't very much.

 

[rhubroma]

First, because you make it look like every thing Spanish is doped up so badly and that that is the only reason for getting good results in multiple sports. From soccer to tennis to cycling.

You mentioned Real Madrid's recent 'suprising' achievements in connection with OP, but they are far from surprising. Real Madrid is one of the greater teams in Europe, and a possible reason for that is that it was Franco's favorite team. Maybe the foundations for future succes were already laid in that era, in terms of greatness, winning prizes and getting exposure in Europe and the world. It's not surprising that Real is one of the teams with highest merchandise revenue, and the profit they make/made are/were invested in expensive transfers, from Zidane, Ronaldo to Beckham and Figo.

The fact that Spain had little athletic success in the past while it has enormous success in the present, does not necessarily explain that OP in particular and doping in general are the (only) reasons for the change. That's a logical fallacy of the post hoc ergo propter hoc-type. An alternative explanation might be that the Franco regime prevented a decent sports infrastructure from emerging.

As you can see in Australia, a country pretty competitive during the Olympics, they are hailed for their focus on top sport. The facilities, the funding, the benefits and training opportunities they offer their athletes seem to contribute to making a country with no more than 22 million people competitive in a range of different sports. Could such shift in focus not have been the case in Spain, and if it has, could that not account for increased success?


And really... taking it seriously in Italy? Their judicial system is clogged up into eternity. The greatest of all crooks in that country, the P-M himself, walked away, even though one of his lawyers committed perjury. That was a case of 'mere' fraud, not even dealing in prohibited substances! Before they can actually get to send anyone to jail for involvement in doping, it'll be 2115. Aren't Dr. Conconi, Cecchini, Ferrari, and Grazi,all in business, in the medical (sports) profession?

Just don't make it look as if Italy is holier than the pope for having suspended Ricco, Basso etc.

(I just checked ferrari's website http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=front and he is still doing well)


PS> I am not American, I am European, Dutch to be exactly.

Look, number one, I didn't say Spain is doing well in sport only because of OP. I said the Spainish officials are covering their athletes. That's because they aren't pursuing the problem as they should be, which, in effect, means they are covering up. This is what people here are plainly stating, like Eugenio Capodaqcua, the la Repubblica cycling columnist who rides with us in our training group during the week. Eugenio was up in your kneck of the woods during the "holy week." The guy knows his business, I put faith in his "opinions." And, please, if we have to always state "this is my opinion," (as I was recommended to do) like in some graduate thesis, then all the verve and force comes out of any of our discussions. I mean what are we a group of over sensitive wimps? And you guys ride bikes too? I've only seen this type of sensitivity among a group of pregnant women (or on their period) before. And I state this with complete irony.

By the way, you being European, should know that that's how its done also in the newspaper editorials here, which, being an ex-pat, is thoroughly enjoyable. Because it's real and not the wishy washy, and hypocritical, politically correct spat that I read in the US papers, which doesn't inform on anything. And this has been my whole point. There are simply two incompatable cultures at work here: one which is used to reality and one which, frankly, isn't.

As far as the Italian judicial system goes: well lets just say it has it's own logic, which defies that of any normal society. I'd recommend appreciating the country's art and food instead. And the papacy? Please, do you think I (an avowed atheist and layisist) would think it a holy thing sir? You insult me. Have a nice day.

 

[Bala Verde]

Maybe they are not covering up, but just slow, like in Italy

The fact that Italians are saying that Spain is trying to protect there athletes doesn't surprise me.

To continue in the tradition of sweeping generalizations *irony alert*, they seem a very indignant people, easily upset when 'injustices' are done. From making a traditional bolognese stew/sauce or even a boscaiola sauce, to using the right amount of flour to eggs for pasta (4 cups to 5 eggs), you always upset an Italian. Their mother taught them x, y, z and 2 miles down the road in another village they say the exact opposite.

This 'national trait' combined with their overblown pride based on some remote (non-Italian) and disconnected past about a certain romulus and remus, written up in their history books to teach their citizens about their former greatness, which gets trampled in the ongoing saga of doping revelation amongst Italian cycling stars, is likely to make any Italian fuming with rage. You live in Italy, try to deny that every word has actually a latin, hence Italian, root. You'll be sucked into a never ending can't win discussion...

I hope I have not kicked too many Italian's shins here... the least I need to do now is to prevent my family from accessing this site, because half of them are Italian. That's how I know