How Often Should Mythical Climbs be Used in Grand Tours?

[Anonymous]

Exactly. Think Riis on Hautacam or Armstrong on Sestriere or Pantani on L'Alpe d'Huez. Mythical.

like lance peforming well on cobbles.. Mythical

 

[jens_attacks]

4 years seems fine for me,although i'd like to see them every day.
i think diversity is good and i hope tour de france will find some climbs never used.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

4 years seems fine for me,although i'd like to see them every day.
i think diversity is good and i hope tour de france will find some climbs never used.

Or at least underused, like Baisse de la Cabanette, the Col d'Andrion and the Col des Braus.

 

[Izzy eviel]

How many 'undiscovered' climbs are there in the GT's?

 

[SirLes]

To do this properly you really need to decide what constitutes a mythical climb and how many of there are. Leaving that to one side I would suggest the following.

One reason that some climbs are famous is because they are used regularly, therefore to maintain that status they need to be used regularly.(eg Alpe d'Huez) Others are famous because of a particular event. They do not have to be used very often as their legend is already guaranteed and maybe would be diminished if they were overused.

The Ventoux has only been used rarely and after the death of Tom Simpson and near total collapse of Merckx in 72 it's reputation for difficulty was set. It was then not used for 13 years after 74 which gave time for its legend to grow. I think that added to it's mystique.

As long as each year there is one stage where a "mythical" climb is used it's fine. Although to be honest if they didn't have one that was already established as "Mythic" they would work hard to convince everyone that a particular climb either was Mythic or was going to be!

 

[benpounder]

I'd say the true beasts ought to be used regularly (and I would not consider L'Angliru, Zoncolon, nor L'Alpe D'Huez true beasts - but great finishes) and seldomly used as a MTF; I'd say three to five years for the classic finishing climbs

Finistre, Stelvio, Galibier, Colle Dell'Angello, Manghen, Ventoux, Grappe, Tourmalet, Seirra Nevada, Gavia, and Madeleine are all long uphill slogs that can make a race. Short punchy finishing climbs following these would IMO create much more exciting races. Then every other decade, have a finish atop each (where possible - there is no way you could stage a finish on top of Col du Galibier unless you stop at the tunnel). And I certainly like the idea of more pave/strada blanco/hardscrabble road surfaces as well. How about the TdF revisiting Col de Tende?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It's not just the Grand Tours though.

I demand we see the Karkonoska Pass in the Tour de Pologne:

Or the Alto de São Macário in the Volta a Portugal:

 

[RedheadDane]

I'd say it depends on the climb. But generally often enough that people watching the race can be "Oh, yeah! I remember last time they went up here! It was so cool!" but not so often that people just go "Ooh, that climb again!"

 

[avanti]

I assume you meant "celebrated or famous (infamous?)" and not "mythical (imaginary)"

I say every grand tour should include such climbs (there are plenty to go around).

 

[Skip Madness]

I assume you meant "celebrated or famous (infamous?)" and not "mythical (imaginary)"

Funnily enough, mythical is one of those words that seems to have its own alternative meaning in cycling parlance. There are lots of strange words and phrases that cycling fans and commentators use which sound odd in normal speech. It's usually where English-language outlets get most of their news from foreign-language press releases and quotes, and don't always make an effort to translate them idiomatically and go a bit too literal.

I can remember someone writing in complaint to this website's old letters section about the way they used the word demonstrate. "He demonstrated to have a good level of condition", that kind of thing. The words normal, demonstrate, calm and phrases like "having a good level" occur much more frequently in cycling journalism than in other sports. At first it used to really jar with me, but then I was so immersed in cycling websites that I ended up picking up that kind of phraseology quite a bit myself. Personally, I'm fond of it.

 

[The Hitch]

Funnily enough, mythical is one of those words that seems to have its own alternative meaning in cycling parlance. There are lots of strange words and phrases that cycling fans and commentators use which sound odd in normal speech. It's usually where English-language outlets get most of their news from foreign-language press releases and quotes, and don't always make an effort to translate them idiomatically and go a bit too literal.

I can remember someone writing in complaint to this website's old letters section about the way they used the word demonstrate. "He demonstrated to have a good level of condition", that kind of thing. The words normal, demonstrate, calm and phrases like "having a good level" occur much more frequently in cycling journalism than in other sports. At first it used to really jar with me, but then I was so immersed in cycling websites that I ended up picking up that kind of phraseology quite a bit myself. Personally, I'm fond of it.

Hey skip. Your such a great poster and cycling mind.

Why do you only grace us with your knowledge on these mountain threads now and again.

I would be interested to see what kind of team you could put together on the Cq game thing.

 

[nvpacchi]

I'd say the true beasts ought to be used regularly (and I would not consider L'Angliru, Zoncolon, nor L'Alpe D'Huez true beasts - but great finishes) and seldomly used as a MTF; I'd say three to five years for the classic finishing climbs

Finistre, Stelvio, Galibier, Colle Dell'Angello, Manghen, Ventoux, Grappe, Tourmalet, Seirra Nevada, Gavia, and Madeleine are all long uphill slogs that can make a race. Short punchy finishing climbs following these would IMO create much more exciting races. Then every other decade, have a finish atop each (where possible - there is no way you could stage a finish on top of Col du Galibier unless you stop at the tunnel). And I certainly like the idea of more pave/strada blanco/hardscrabble road surfaces as well. How about the TdF revisiting Col de Tende?

The Tour is actually finishing at the top of Galibier for 2011 (stage 18). IMO Galibier has been used way too much in the past decade to be in the same class as the others you mentioned. Also, I feel the Tourmalet has been used way beyond its saturation point that people just automatically assume it part of the route each year.

 

[SirLes]

Funnily enough, mythical is one of those words that seems to have its own alternative meaning in cycling parlance. There are lots of strange words and phrases that cycling fans and commentators use which sound odd in normal speech. It's usually where English-language outlets get most of their news from foreign-language press releases and quotes, and don't always make an effort to translate them idiomatically and go a bit too literal.

I can remember someone writing in complaint to this website's old letters section about the way they used the word demonstrate. "He demonstrated to have a good level of condition", that kind of thing. The words normal, demonstrate, calm and phrases like "having a good level" occur much more frequently in cycling journalism than in other sports. At first it used to really jar with me, but then I was so immersed in cycling websites that I ended up picking up that kind of phraseology quite a bit myself. Personally, I'm fond of it.

"Good sensations" is another one as is the use of the word tranquil.

I quite like the way that the translations have created particular cycling phrases

 

[benpounder]

The Tour is actually finishing at the top of Galibier for 2011 (stage 18). IMO Galibier has been used way too much in the past decade to be in the same class as the others you mentioned. Also, I feel the Tourmalet has been used way beyond its saturation point that people just automatically assume it part of the route each year.

They (ASO) are calling it Galibier Serre-Chevalier. I'm waiting for the route details. Col Angel (Colle Dell'Angello) and Izoard, fantastic. But frankly, I would rather them finish in old town Briancon a la stage 11 2005

The groans you hear from the audience are not because Galibier and Tourmalet are used so much, rather that ASO mis-uses them so spectacularly.

 

[roundabout]

http://www.letour.fr/2011/TDF/COURSE/fr/1800/etape_par_etape.html

 

[Skip Madness]

Hey skip. Your such a great poster and cycling mind.[citation needed]

Why do you only grace us with your knowledge on these mountain threads now and again.

There are already many more better-informed and interested posters than me on other threads. My main interests are women's cycling, which I tend to discuss elsewhere, and stage race and in-particular grand tour route construction, which I tend to discuss here.

I would be interested to see what kind of team you could put together on the Cq game thing.

Anyone who has seen the outcomes of my participation in fantasy cycling games knows the reasons why I tend not to play them.

 

[benpounder]

...

Yes I know. You will note that aside from the profile tab, the four others say "wait until June for more details" when you click on them...

Details, not snapshots or overviews. For example, that site you list (the official TdF site) lists the finish for stage 18 at 2645m in elevation. That is what my map says, and what the photo that I took says is the top of Galibier. Yet on stage 19, the official TdF site says the top of the route over Galibier is 2556m. Sounds like they are going thru the tunnel n'est-ce pas. But without details, it is just a guess at this point.

 

[roundabout]

History suggests that the course is not really likely to change after the presentation. My best guess would be that Serre Chevalier are the people paying for the finish on the Galibier.

 

[The Hitch]

citation needed
.

Well i went to your post history and didnt need to go past your first post to find a great cycling mind. 1 And your posts definately meet a certain degree of lucidity and intelligence. 2 I also notice like Libertine you are somewhat pedantic regarding accents on european names, which at the very least reveals an educated mind and respect. 3 4

Anyone who has seen the outcomes of my participation in fantasy cycling games knows the reasons why I tend not to play them

Meh. Thats not that bad. 75% of the score of the winner. But i see Lucybears came high so well done to her.
And i was more interested in your opinion, but if you say that you focus mainly on womens cycling then i withdraw that.

Btw are you at Bristol at university?

_________________________________________________________

1 http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=56209#post56209
2 http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=394091#post394091
3 http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=368276#post368276
4 http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=385211#post385211

 

[Anonymous]

Stalker Alert

 

[LugHugger]

One climb that I would love to see more of is St Gotthard on the Swiss-Italian border. It's a simply stunning setting. Has it been used in the Giro or is it solely the realm of the Tour de Suisse?

 

[Skip Madness]

Besides all the so-called mythical climbs which have never been used, which ones which have been used and are still in good condition have gone the longest period without a Grand Tour outing? Mont du Chat was 1974, any longer-term absences in the Tour? What about in the Giro?

Btw are you at Bristol at university?

I'm in Bristol because it's where I have lived my whole life. I might have gone to university, but then I realised it involved having those pesky qualifications.

Edited: for clarity in my ballsed-up question.

 

[Descender]

Besides all the so-called mythical climbs which have never been used, which ones which have been used and are still in good condition have gone the longest period without a Grand Tour outing? Mont du Chat was 1974, any longer-term absences in the Tour? What about in the Giro?

I'm in Bristol because it's where I have lived my whole life. I might have gone to university, but then I realised it involved having those pesky qualifications.

Edited: for clarity in my ballsed-up question.

Not so long, but the Colle Fauniera was used for the first and last time twelve editions ago.

 

[valentius borealis]

Yes I know. You will note that aside from the profile tab, the four others say "wait until June for more details" when you click on them...

Details, not snapshots or overviews. For example, that site you list (the official TdF site) lists the finish for stage 18 at 2645m in elevation. That is what my map says, and what the photo that I took says is the top of Galibier. Yet on stage 19, the official TdF site says the top of the route over Galibier is 2556m. Sounds like they are going thru the tunnel n'est-ce pas. But without details, it is just a guess at this point.

When the route was presented, Christian Prudhomme stated that Stage 19 would be going through the tunnel.

 

[gregrowlerson]

I think that 4-5 years is the right space between including the same mountain stage, at least as a MTF.

For the TDF I think that they could try to include more hilly/uphill finishers. Just 500-1000 metres and a little steep, so that you get some more variety in the stage winners (and bring back time bonuses to encourage the GC guys in these situations).

Including the run up to Mende last year was good; 3 km at about 10%. I'd like that every few years.

Perhaps bring back a couple of the stages from 2006 for 2012. The main pyranean stage which Menchov won, and the Alpine stage where Landis dramatically cracked. Both final climbs were only 6% gradiant, but were long and came after many other climbs in the lead in which deadened the legs of many riders.