I think Vaughters really wants to sign Contador:

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes but Ulrich for whatever reason has been tied much more closely than Contador has. Maybe he was just one of the suckers who took the fall, or maybe he was guilty of being german at the wrong time, but Contador has been "UCI cleared", so if a DS wants to look into hiring him, it's ok.
If, however they sign him and then he goes down then they either didn't do their homework or they are as dirty as he is. If a DS is willing to take a risk on a rider such as Contador (or a lot of others at this point) then I say they should be held acountable to a very high level. They should be held acountable and not be allowed to skate off saying "well he told us he was clean".

Actually the reason why Ullrich got busted for OP when other didn't was because all teams got the jitters when Liberty Seguros pulled out.

T-Mobile got all their athletes to sign a declaration that they had nothing to do with Fuentes or had been to Spain - all riders signed but Ulrich and Sevilla were named as having visited Fuentes.
That is why they were sent home by the team management- while the rest of the team went to Freiburg!

Once he was ejected from starting the Tour it was pretty easy to make him a fall guy.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I don't believe AC to be a sanctioned rider.

So he was randomly put in operacion puerto with no apparent evidence at all. Their must be a bit of substance to that.

 

[cyclingmad]

Contador

It is really sad and bad for cycling that people automatically assume doping with nearly every rider that is good even when there is no reason for doubts.
What I dont understand is why Australians dont like Contador and seem so determined to see him discredited. Aside from being exceptionally good every piece of so called evidence of suspicion is so weak and seems so out of character.
I can understand the dislike and speculation with Wiggins clearly sour grapes as he was part of a track cycling team that totally destroy the Australian riders. A lot of the same things were similar to the old AIS program when the Australian team were good. The AIS had a load of dirty riders so its understandable that they would assume the same thing.

You should front up and say you dont like Contador
But is your doping speculation and the dislike for Contador Im just guessing now because he ruined Evans chances and beat him in the 2007 tour, him teaming up against Evans with Valverde in Dauphine Libere or just genuine hatred for riders that go out and win races agressively and make you hurt while you try desperately suck wheel?

 

[Digger]

It is really sad and bad for cycling that people automatically assume doping with nearly every rider that is good even when there is no reason for doubts.
What I dont understand is why Australians dont like Contador and seem so determined to see him discredited. Aside from being exceptionally good every piece of so called evidence of suspicion is so weak and seems so out of character.
I can understand the dislike and speculation with Wiggins clearly sour grapes as he was part of a track cycling team that totally destroy the Australian riders. A lot of the same things were similar to the old AIS program when the Australian team were good. The AIS had a load of dirty riders so its understandable that they would assume the same thing.

You should front up and say you dont like Contador
But is your doping speculation and the dislike for Contador Im just guessing now because he ruined Evans chances and beat him in the 2007 tour, him teaming up against Evans with Valverde in Dauphine Libere or just genuine hatred for riders that go out and win races agressively and make you hurt while you try desperately suck wheel?

I'm Irish and I believe he is doped to the gills. What's your reasoning for that, in light of your post above? Let mw gues, we're jealous as a nation of successful cyclists, because we haven't had anyone of that class in 20 years.

 

[Dude17]

I'm Irish and I believe he is doped to the gills. What's your reasoning for that, in light of your post above? Let mw gues, we're jealous as a nation of successful cyclists, because we haven't had anyone of that class in 20 years.

Yep, that's it.

I do see a tendency to doubt any "extraordinary" performance by any athlete. Given history, I can see why. Is Contador doped to the gills? I have no idea. I'd like to believe that it isn't true, but I wouldn't stake anything on that. Kind of leaves me feeling defeated. I'd like to be able to point to some athlete who I know is clean as an example for my son as he grows up. I'd like to say, "See, there is someone who is doing these super-human things without any 'medical' assistance." Given the current generation of athletes, I'm going to have to look long and hard.

 

[Digger]

Yep, that's it.

I do see a tendency to doubt any "extraordinary" performance by any athlete. Given history, I can see why. Is Contador doped to the gills? I have no idea. I'd like to believe that it isn't true, but I wouldn't stake anything on that. Kind of leaves me feeling defeated. I'd like to be able to point to some athlete who I know is clean as an example for my son as he grows up. I'd like to say, "See, there is someone who is doing these super-human things without any 'medical' assistance." Given the current generation of athletes, I'm going to have to look long and hard.

Anyone in their right mind, who had no blood in Madrid would've nearly brought the DNA themselves, in order to prove beyond any doubt that their blood wasn't there. Yet Alberto, aside from the AC blood bags, and Werner Franke's disclosures, has been reluctant in the extreme, to give a DNA sample. Strange behaviour for a clean rider.
But even aside from this year, look at last year's Giro. Look at the guys he beat. Sella and Ricco. Someone tell me how this is possible clean. In order to believe it is possible, what would the time difference have been, if they had been clean? A couple of hours perhaps. It's nonsense.

 

[Dude17]

Anyone in their right mind, who had no blood in Madrid would've nearly brought the DNA themselves, in order to prove beyond any doubt that their blood wasn't there. Yet Alberto, aside from the AC blood bags, and Werner Franke's disclosures, has been reluctant in the extreme, to give a DNA sample. Strange behaviour for a clean rider.
But even aside from this year, look at last year's Giro. Look at the guys he beat. Sella and Ricco. Someone tell me how this is possible clean. In order to believe it is possible, what would the time difference have been, if they had been clean? A couple of hours perhaps. It's nonsense.

All that is why I wouldn't stake anything on Contador being clean. Not sure why he's reluctant to provide a DNA sample, unless he really is dirty. Maybe he has some other legal reasoning that makes sense, but absent that, all his reluctance does is cast more doubt on him.

 

[peloton]

All that is why I wouldn't stake anything on Contador being clean. Not sure why he's reluctant to provide a DNA sample, unless he really is dirty. Maybe he has some other legal reasoning that makes sense, but absent that, all his reluctance does is cast more doubt on him.

Contador said he would offer his DNA if the authorities asked for it. That they haven't is not his fault.

 

[Digger]

Contador said he would offer his DNA if the authorities asked for it. That they haven't is not his fault.

Firstly he refused to offer it. When it became obvious that it would never be cross checked, he then offered it.

 

[Cobber]

Actually the reason why Ullrich got busted for OP when other didn't was because all teams got the jitters when Liberty Seguros pulled out.

T-Mobile got all their athletes to sign a declaration that they had nothing to do with Fuentes or had been to Spain - all riders signed but Ulrich and Sevilla were named as having visited Fuentes.
That is why they were sent home by the team management- while the rest of the team went to Freiburg!

Once he was ejected from starting the Tour it was pretty easy to make him a fall guy.

Of course after that, his house was raided and the authorities obtained DNA samples that they matched to OP blood bags. I think this is the big reason that Ullrich suffered from OP while others like AC got away with it. AC did not submit DNA to the OP case and thus did not have his DNA matched to any of the blood from OP. Not sure about the legality of the search on Ullrich, but it was enough to tie him to OP definitively.

 

[peloton]

Firstly he refused to offer it. When it became obvious that it would never be cross checked, he then offered it.

How did CONI nail Valverde?

 

[Digger]

How did CONI nail Valverde?

Le Monde stated explicitly in 2006 that he was refusing to give a DNA sample.

 

[peloton]

Le Monde stated explicitly in 2006 that he was refusing to give a DNA sample.

Le Monde states a lot of things, doesn't make it true.
IIRC Le Monde had to pay a bunch of money to certain Spanish Football teams after they took Le Monde to court, after Le Monde stated explicitly they had used Fuentes' services......

 

[cyclingmad]

Whos for real

I'm Irish and I believe he is doped to the gills. What's your reasoning for that, in light of your post above? Let mw gues, we're jealous as a nation of successful cyclists, because we haven't had anyone of that class in 20 years.

I dont believe your reason for believing Contador doped is related to being Irish. Your reasons could be that he just looks to good to be true

Auscyclefan94 has clearly read through the JV posts and seems generally to like the idea that cycling is cleaning up but seems quite strongly against AC. On the JV threads a lot of comments and evidence suggest nothing dodgy about Contadors performances or actions. JV is anti doping and doesn't seem particularly suspicious about Contador. Very little other than the Puerto association suggests he is cheating so why focus on him so much we should focus on a new champion and believe in him. His personality doesn't appeal to some but is great to watch on the bike

The Opercion Puerto is the only doubt and remember how poorly it was done from a legal perspective and was basically chasing after individuals. Remember even Alan Davis was caught up in it as well. Fuentes himself said lots of riders associated were wrong the fact the UCI cleared Contador suggests the evidence is very weak as Valverde, Basso, Ulrich were persued more strongly.

 

[poupou]

Le Monde states a lot of things, doesn't make it true.
IIRC Le Monde had to pay a bunch of money to certain Spanish Football teams after they took Le Monde to court, after Le Monde stated explicitly they had used Fuentes' services......

To be accurate :
Fuentes gave an interview to Le Monde, apparently confessed to have FC Barcelona players as clients.
After the publication, Fuentes was threatened of death and then denied his initial statements.
So Le Monde could not back up his story when sued by FC Barcelona.

 

[peloton]

I dont believe your reason for believing Contador doped is related to being Irish. Your reasons could be that he just looks to good to be true

Auscyclefan94 has clearly read through the JV posts and seems generally to like the idea that cycling is cleaning up but seems quite strongly against AC. On the JV threads a lot of comments and evidence suggest nothing dodgy about Contadors performances or actions. JV is anti doping and doesn't seem particularly suspicious about Contador. Very little other than the Puerto association suggests he is cheating so why focus on him so much we should focus on a new champion and believe in him. His personality doesn't appeal to some but is great to watch on the bike

The Opercion Puerto is the only doubt and remember how poorly it was done from a legal perspective and was basically chasing after individuals. Remember even Alan Davis was caught up in it as well. Fuentes himself said lots of riders associated were wrong the fact the UCI cleared Contador suggests the evidence is very weak as Valverde, Basso, Ulrich were persued more strongly.

Contador is the only rider Fuentes himself said he had not worked with.

For those who don't know; During the first stage of the 2004 Vuelta a Asturias he started to feel unwell, and after 40 kilometers he fell and went into convulsions. He had been suffering from headaches for several days beforehand and was diagnosed with a cerebral cavernoma, a congenital vascular disorder, for which he underwent risky surgery and a recovery to get back on his bike.

He has had his own doc since then, and needs daily medication to avoid epileptic seizures.

I have no idea if Contador is doping or not, but he has shown huge talent since his early days.

I go with the innocent until proven guilty- attitude, I enjoy his attacking riding style.

 

[peloton]

To be accurate :
Fuentes gave an interview to Le Monde, apparently confessed to have FC Barcelona players as clients.
After the publication, Fuentes was threatened of death and then denied his initial statements.
So Le Monde could not back up his story when sued by FC Barcelona.

see APPARENTLY confessed. Big difference.

 

[Digger]

Le Monde states a lot of things, doesn't make it true.
IIRC Le Monde had to pay a bunch of money to certain Spanish Football teams after they took Le Monde to court, after Le Monde stated explicitly they had used Fuentes' services......

Le Monde aren't exactly a tabloid. They don't get much wrong. AC didn't get them to refute this.
Secondly, who do you think AC alongside JJ is? Just a coincidence I guess. So he was on the LS team, under one of the dirtiest DS in the history of the sport, even worse than JB in my opinion, most of his team mates are named in the Puerto files, his initials are on the files, and you don't believe this is enough. Le monde, one of the most high brow newspapers in the world doesn't go around making these kind of statements. Le Monde have also seen the files in question.
Your thoughts on Werner Franke and what he has seen? He says he knows the drugs AC was taking.

And finally, do you honestly think there's a genuine effort being made by the Spanish authorities to get to the bottom of this case? No cover up evident at all? I suppose Valv.piti is also innocent. Of all the aliases we've wondered about, not one has turned out to be wrong. And alot of them were far more difficult to piece together than AC, alongside a whole bunch of LS initials.

 

[Digger]

Contador is the only rider Fuentes himself said he had not worked with.

For those who don't know; During the first stage of the 2004 Vuelta a Asturias he started to feel unwell, and after 40 kilometers he fell and went into convulsions. He had been suffering from headaches for several days beforehand and was diagnosed with a cerebral cavernoma, a congenital vascular disorder, for which he underwent risky surgery and a recovery to get back on his bike.

He has had his own doc since then, and needs daily medication to avoid epileptic seizures.

I have no idea if Contador is doping or not, but he has shown huge talent since his early days.

I go with the innocent until proven guilty- attitude, I enjoy his attacking riding style.

We know.

And regarding the second point highlighted, do you also like Ricco's 'attacking riding style'?

 

[Anonymous]

We know.

And regarding the second point highlighted, do you also like Ricco's 'attacking riding style'?

AND THAT IS THE ISSUE!! How much of the "attacking" style is made possible through the use of PED's?

 

[cyclingmad]

Ricco comparison

AND THAT IS THE ISSUE!! How much of the "attacking" style is made possible through the use of PED's?

The attacking style is just that aggression and climbing ability. Ricco wasn't so sharp in the Giro last year just the tour. Contador is considerably lighter than all of his rivals so has a better burst than anyone he even has 4 kg on Andy Shleck. He accelerates away quickly and establishes a gap then builds on it. Ricco just attacked like he got get away at will.
For 15 years the tour followed a format of Time Trialists using teams that ride impossibly hard day in day out to stunt the climbers legs before the mountains and win in the time trials. EPO had a lot to say for this. Now the riders have cleaned up attacking hard on the climbs is possible and riders are slowly adjusting to new tactics. The flat pace style is still common in the tour and there are few climbers able break away and less that try. Good on Andy Schleck as well for trying to break the race open. Contadors accelerations look more like cimbers of the past than Ricco doping arrogance.
Nothing at all solid has been presented to suggest he is doping other than being really good.

 

[Digger]

The attacking style is just that aggression and climbing ability. Ricco wasn't so sharp in the Giro last year just the tour. Contador is considerably lighter than all of his rivals so has a better burst than anyone he even has 4 kg on Andy Shleck. He accelerates away quickly and establishes a gap then builds on it. Ricco just attacked like he got get away at will.
For 15 years the tour followed a format of Time Trialists using teams that ride impossibly hard day in day out to stunt the climbers legs before the mountains and win in the time trials. EPO had a lot to say for this. Now the riders have cleaned up attacking hard on the climbs is possible and riders are slowly adjusting to new tactics. The flat pace style is still common in the tour and there are few climbers able break away and less that try. Good on Andy Schleck as well for trying to break the race open. Contadors accelerations look more like cimbers of the past than Ricco doping arrogance.
Nothing at all solid has been presented to suggest he is doping other than being really good.

Were you even watching Ricco last year at the Giro? He was attacking day after day. He came second. Whereas Ricco, outside of the stage he won at the Tour, didn't do anything.
I would like your opinion on how AC was able to beat a guy during the Giro, in Sella and Ricco, who were doped up on CERA?

And even if we take your 'logic' above, this should mean that AC should not be as strong as he is on long flat TT.

 

[cyclingmad]

Ricco comparison

Were you even watching Ricco last year at the Giro? He was attacking day after day. He came second. Whereas Ricco, outside of the stage he won at the Tour, didn't do anything.
I would like your opinion on how AC was able to beat a guy during the Giro, in Sella and Ricco, who were doped up on CERA?

And even if we take your 'logic' above, this should mean that AC should not be as strong as he is on long flat TT.

Remember it well, the point was more the nature of the attacks comparing the two tours, it wasn't just blowing the field away at will. The Giro last year several riders were attacking each other every day including Ricco. Even Menchov was putting in some digs. The impact of Riccos attacks in the Giro were nothing like his tour attacks. The only one riding in the Giro that was riding away from the field at will was Sella who was obviously juiced and rode like Ricco did in last years tour. How good was Sella pre Giro and doping? All the time Sella lost was on flat stages not in the mountains too. I hope when the retrospective Giro tests come out it clears up some of this

The TT in Annecy this year could not be described as long and flat either. There was a reasonable climb on it and in this section was where he made his mark. I did notice quite a difference in riding style between 2007 and 2009 and he is definitely much more aero and may be more consistent (which is harder to pick up by sight).
In terms of performance it was pretty exceptional but the gaps in that TT were not big and he wasn't that far ahead of Christophe Moreau who is nearly 40 so again I dont believe his performance was superhuman.

Contador seems unreasonably targeted for suspicion

 

[Digger]

Remember it well, the point was more the nature of the attacks comparing the two tours, it wasn't just blowing the field away at will. The Giro last year several riders were attacking each other every day including Ricco. Even Menchov was putting in some digs. The impact of Riccos attacks in the Giro were nothing like his tour attacks. The only one riding in the Giro that was riding away from the field at will was Sella who was obviously juiced and rode like Ricco did in last years tour. How good was Sella pre Giro and doping? All the time Sella lost was on flat stages not in the mountains too. I hope when the retrospective Giro tests come out it clears up some of this

The TT in Annecy this year could not be described as long and flat either. There was a reasonable climb on it and in this section was where he made his mark. I did notice quite a difference in riding style between 2007 and 2009 and he is definitely much more aero and may be more consistent (which is harder to pick up by sight).
In terms of performance it was pretty exceptional but the gaps in that TT were not big and he wasn't that far ahead of Christophe Moreau who is nearly 40 so again I dont believe his performance was superhuman.

Contador seems unreasonably targeted for suspicion

So much I could say here.
Ricco attacked once in last year's Tour.

Two time checks prior ot the climb in the TT, he was ahead in both.

He is now winning Prologues - See Paris Nice.

Why is his initials in Puerto files? Why not release his VO2? Why did he at first refuse to give a DNA sample? Did Werner Franke make it up? How do you believe he managed to beat two guys at last year's Giro who we know for a fact were doped? You think he's that good? If they were clean, he'd have won it by an hour.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Remember even Alan Davis was caught up in it as well. Fuentes himself said lots of riders associated were wrong the fact the UCI cleared Contador suggests the evidence is very weak as Valverde, Basso, Ulrich were persued more strongly.

From what I have read, the pros and cons of Puerto go something like this:

Contador, Davis and one other rider were in the first group of 3 cleared by the Spanish authorities, suggesting evidence against him is weak. However, Davis offered his DNA to clear his name straight away (his offer was initially declined) ....Contador refused to offer, but then later said something like he would give samples to any proper authorities....after the Spanish court had ruled that the blood bags could not be released to the UCI.
Fuentes has indicated Contador wasn't one of the dopers, but is a ringing endorsement from Fuentes a good thing or not?
Valverde and Ulrich were perused more strongly by other uthorities....not the UCI....so there is reason to question whether the UCI is doing it's job. While the UCI is seen to unfair and ineffective the rumors and conspiracy theories will continue....
Did the Spanish authorities decide to protect their local 'come back from the brink of death' sporting hero?
Is the whole anti-doping system so corrupt Contador is avoiding giving a sample for fear of being set up?

But if we conclude that he was doping then, must we conclude that he is definitely doping now? Do you have an opinion on this last question? I like the way you try and weigh up different bits of information to reach your view....