I want the facts without destroying the sport

[MarkvW]

WTF is the sport, anyway?

Cycling is a bunch of people racing, a bunch of people watching, and a bunch of people selling stuff to the assembled group. It is not rocket science. If the UCI goes down, something will take its place.

Something should.

 

[PosterBill]

Why do you guys hate Armstrong? I'll tell you why. You hated when he blew the field away in such a utterly ridiculous fashion on Sestriere. You hate him because his personality was so in your face. You hate the guy because he made a mockery of the sport with such a blatant arrogance.

Would you have hated Armstrong if he had raced like....hmmm...a certain spanish champion Miguel Indurain? Had Armstrong put time into his rivals during time trials and just stayed in the group during the difficult climbs then I seriously doubt that he would be going through this right now. Had he endured a more Indurain humility then I doubt he would be going through this.

Is there any other conclusion you can draw from such a blatant double standard?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Why do you guys hate Armstrong? I'll tell you why. You hated when he blew the field away in such a utterly ridiculous fashion on Sestriere. You hate him because his personality was so in your face. You hate the guy because he made a mockery of the sport with such a blatant arrogance.

Would you have hated Armstrong if he had raced like....hmmm...a certain spanish champion Miguel Indurain? Had Armstrong put time into his rivals during time trials and just stayed in the group during the difficult climbs then I seriously doubt that he would be going through this right now. Had he endured a more Indurain humility then I doubt he would be going through this.

Is there any other conclusion you can draw from such a blatant double standard?

To answer your question - as you didn't have this view when Ulrich got sanctioned recentley, then the conclusion I would draw is that this is more "Let Lance Lies Livestrong" nonsense.

 

[Animal]

Why do you guys hate Armstrong? I'll tell you why. You hated when he blew the field away in such a utterly ridiculous fashion on Sestriere. You hate him because his personality was so in your face. You hate the guy because he made a mockery of the sport with such a blatant arrogance.

Would you have hated Armstrong if he had raced like....hmmm...a certain spanish champion Miguel Indurain? Had Armstrong put time into his rivals during time trials and just stayed in the group during the difficult climbs then I seriously doubt that he would be going through this right now. Had he endured a more Indurain humility then I doubt he would be going through this.

Is there any other conclusion you can draw from such a blatant double standard?

Sad.

(Extra characters)

 

[cleanmarine]

Why do you guys hate Armstrong? I'll tell you why. You hated when he blew the field away in such a utterly ridiculous fashion on Sestriere. You hate him because his personality was so in your face. You hate the guy because he made a mockery of the sport with such a blatant arrogance.

Would you have hated Armstrong if he had raced like....hmmm...a certain spanish champion Miguel Indurain? Had Armstrong put time into his rivals during time trials and just stayed in the group during the difficult climbs then I seriously doubt that he would be going through this right now. Had he endured a more Indurain humility then I doubt he would be going through this.

Is there any other conclusion you can draw from such a blatant double standard?

Because he is a fraud a cheat a liar and pyscho

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Why stop at Armstrong? You do realize that Ulrich was recentley found guilty - where was your opinion then?

Yes, void a decade - if that what is decided. Getting rid of Armstrongs results does not get rid of cycling.

No, but it gets rid of a cherished myth, and people never let those go easily. See any poster with less than 20 posts who is new to the clinic, but has been lurking for awhile as proof.

 

[PosterBill]

I think the better comparison is Indurain rather then Ullrich. Ullrich was busted while he was a professional rider but his punishment was only served after many bureaucratic years (correct?). Armstrong and Indurain would be potentially busted by going back in time, while both were officially retired from cycling.

I really don't like Armstrong but I can't see the logic in choosing Armstrong vs any other cheat of the 90s

 

[TexPat]

I think the better comparison is Indurain rather then Ullrich. Ullrich was busted while he was a professional rider. Armstrong and Indurain would be potentially busted by going back in time, while both were officially retired from cycling.

I really don't like Armstrong but I can't see the logic in choosing Armstrong vs any other cheat of the 90s

Yeah, but most of them were nabbed. Suppose we should just let bygones be bygones. Applying that logic to law would really make the world a lot less desirable for the civilized.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I think the better comparison is Indurain rather then Ullrich. Ullrich was busted while he was a professional rider but his punishment was only served after many bureaucratic years (correct?). Armstrong and Indurain would be potentially busted by going back in time, while both were officially retired from cycling.

I really don't like Armstrong but I can't see the logic in choosing Armstrong vs any other cheat of the 90s

Some of Armstrongs doping is related to 2010 - that's just 2 years ago.
It is great that you want to compare Indurain - however I do not remember 10 members of his team giving evidence against him.

So where was this outrage for Ullrich?

 

[BotanyBay]

Why do you guys hate Armstrong? I'll tell you why. You hated when he blew the field away in such a utterly ridiculous fashion on Sestriere. You hate him because his personality was so in your face. You hate the guy because he made a mockery of the sport with such a blatant arrogance.

Would you have hated Armstrong if he had raced like....hmmm...a certain spanish champion Miguel Indurain? Had Armstrong put time into his rivals during time trials and just stayed in the group during the difficult climbs then I seriously doubt that he would be going through this right now. Had he endured a more Indurain humility then I doubt he would be going through this.

Is there any other conclusion you can draw from such a blatant double standard?

We hate Indurain too ;-)

 

[danjo007]

scrub eddie. he was guilty! wipe all of his results, he's hardly a legend now, is he?!

 

[PosterBill]

Forgive me if I am wrong on this..but Jan Ullrich was busted AS a professional cyclist right? If Jan Ullrich was busted in some weird back dated investigation then I would be equally outraged. Where is your outrage with the lack of an investigation into Indurain? I answered your question

 

[fatsprintking]

Maybe the truth and the facts will destroy pro cycling, but its not going to destroy cycling.

Maybe pro cycling needs to be destroyed? Maybe we need more people who ride their bike because they love it rather than because they want to be rich and famous?

Maybe the "fans" should spend more time being involved in their local club and really get to understand the essence of the sport?

Maybe there is an opening for sponsors to be involved in the grass roots side of the sport rather than just the top end?

Maybe no jobs for old pro's would encourage more people who have not been tainted by the "dirty" side of the sport to get involved in coaching, administration and rider welfare?

Maybe less money in the sport would actually lead to more exciting and instinctive racing?

Maybe the sport being destroyed is not such a bad thing - maybe its the only way to get rid of the stench?

 

[The Hitch]

Americans unable to disaggregate cycling from Lance - on both sides of the argument.

Yawn.

Amen brother.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Forgive me if I am wrong on this..but Jan Ullrich was busted AS a professional cyclist right? If Jan Ullrich was busted in some weird back dated investigation then I would be equally outraged. Where is your outrage with the lack of an investigation into Indurain? I answered your question

Ullrich was only busted last February.
In fact the reason it took so long was because it was exactly a weird backdated investigation. But he was guilty and rightly punished.

Which is not the case with Indurain - unlike Armstrong, he is outside the Statute of Limitaions and does not have a host of witnesses outing him.

 

[Anonymous]

Forgive me if I am wrong on this..but Jan Ullrich was busted AS a professional cyclist right? If Jan Ullrich was busted in some weird back dated investigation then I would be equally outraged. Where is your outrage with the lack of an investigation into Indurain? I answered your question

Oh boy, so it's the nature of the accusation not the evidence which leads you to believe there should be an investigation against Indurain.

Trying to clog the toilet, eh?

 

[PosterBill]

Ullrich was suspended from riding in 2006 while a pro. It's not my fault that it took the subsequent 5 years to officially lay down a ruling. He was caught in the act

We are going round and round on this. And you could easily find a few witnesses if you applied the same heat

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ullrich was suspended from riding in 2006 while a pro. It's not my fault that it took the subsequent 5 years to officially lay down a ruling. He was caught in the act

We are going round and round on this.

Armstrong should have been suspended from riding in 2001 while a pro, yes you are going around in circles.

Actually Ullrich was not suspended until 2007, Telecom pulled him from the 06 Tour and when he was sanctioned in February he had results going back to 05 taken away too.

 

[PosterBill]

Ok, I am not going to engage in a typical ****ing match here. We've both made our points. I do not believe it betters the sport of cycling if you go back and start voiding all the past champions which can easily be done. I don't like Lance and I do want to know the truth. I'd also say the same for Indurain. So this horse is dead

 

[Maxiton]

Ullrich was only busted last February.
In fact the reason it took so long was because it was exactly a weird backdated investigation. But he was guilty and rightly punished.

Which is not the case with Indurain - unlike Armstrong, he is outside the Statute of Limitaions and does not have a host of witnesses outing him.

Exactly. And why is that? Because Indurain and his helpers did whatever it is they did and pulled it off and then he retired quietly to his farm or whatever and never a peep was heard from him again. And you know that even now he is probably breathing a sigh of relief and giving thanks for his good fortune.

Armstrong, on the other hand, couldn't leave well enough alone. Seven Tour wins? Check. Rich and highly regarded? Check. Global brand in his own right? Check. Retired without losing a Tour? Check. Pulled off a well funded, complex, organized cheating scam, in conjunction with his handlers, doctors, and the UCI itself, over a period of many years - all, without getting busted? Check. What to do then, after several years in safe retirement, shielded and secure behind a statute of limitations and his own legacy? I know! Stage a comeback! Take more, gratuitously, even though more isn't needed.

As has been pointed out, that, and only that, is the reason for Armstrong's undoing.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I think the better comparison is Indurain rather then Ullrich. Ullrich was busted while he was a professional rider but his punishment was only served after many bureaucratic years (correct?). Armstrong and Indurain would be potentially busted by going back in time, while both were officially retired from cycling.

I really don't like Armstrong but I can't see the logic in choosing Armstrong vs any other cheat of the 90s

Ah yes, the obfuscatory point that the concentration on Armstrong is somehow misplaced, or the product of some jealousy, or personal fault of our own. This is covered on page 43, subsection 4 of the "How to be an Armstrong troll handbook." You worked your way through much more of the book than most. The force is meh with this one.

No, Armstrong forced his way to the top of the dung pile with his pathological need to be the hero in the public eye, and to do so fraudulently so that inside he can mock those who worship him at the same time so as to place himself in a position of superiority to everyone. He placed himself in this position. He will have hung himself with his own rope if he is punished. To enjoy seeing it happen because of the things he has done to others in order to maintain his lie is natural. It's also fun to watch him and his minions twist and turn violently in the hurricane.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ok, I am not going to engage in a typical ****ing match here. We've both made our points. I do not believe it betters the sport of cycling if you go back and start voiding all the past champions which can easily be done. I don't like Lance and I do want to know the truth. I'd also say the same for Indurain. So this horse is dead

Not quite - the Statute of Limitations is 8 years - so when you say voiding past champions, do you mean that Floyd, Alberto, Jan etc should get their results back?

Or does this consistency only extend to one person...

 

[Anonymous]

Exactly. And why is that? Because Indurain and his helpers did whatever it is they did and pulled it off and then he retired quietly to his farm or whatever and never a peep was heard from him again. And you know that even now he is probably breathing a sigh of relief and giving thanks for his good fortune.

Armstrong, on the other hand, couldn't leave well enough alone. Seven Tour wins? Check. Rich and highly regarded? Check. Global brand in his own right? Check. Retired without losing a Tour? Check. Pulled off a well funded, complex, organized cheating scam, in conjunction with his handlers, doctors, and the UCI itself, over a period of many years - all, without getting busted? Check. What to do then, after several years in safe retirement, shielded and secure behind a statue of limitations and his own legacy? I know! Stage a comeback! Take more, gratuitously, even though more isn't needed.

As has been pointed out, that, and only that, is the reason for Armstrong's undoing.

Yep.

It will be the most expensive Nevada City win in the history of cycling.

 

[Maxiton]

Yep.

It will be the most expensive Nevada City win in the history of cycling.

LOL.

Oughta make Nevada City feel pretty special.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yep.

It will be the most expensive Nevada City win in the history of cycling.

Remember, if they take that win from him it will ruin cycling.