If there was one clean rider...

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Mar 13, 2009
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@NL_LeMondFans said:
Did you read his book ? He seems to be a very, very strange man. A little bit "out there", you know. He doesn't qualify, to me, as a fierce competitor. Sure he wanted to do great things but destroying the opposition wasn't his thing.

I also think that, in order to survive clean in those years (say, mid 90's to mid 00's), you had to get closure, somehow. Find a way to make sense of all of this.

I just don't believe in the 100% dopers theory. There had to be some clean guys in there too. And those guys were treated as dopers by the general public, while not getting any of the laurels the dopers got. it requires closure, definitely.

You know, the tragedy of the clean rider is that he cannot prove he was clean. In fact, dopers count on that for their defense.
closure = doing volte face on the sport when you are 21 cos you know you have to have to graze your kristian neez and fellate faust
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
Yes, i think we can know. I don't think a guy who rode for 15+ years clean would accept that he was the rightful winner of these races but due to others cheating he never got his just rewards! Sorry I don't believe a competitor can accept that, it goes against the idea of competition. Moncoutie was a competitor, wanted to win.
I don't think that he had the drive. He had the talent but never the drive according to some interviews out there. So not sure if your statement is correct either.
 
Aug 31, 2012
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Were their clean riders in the Tour? Completely clean? Sure. I can believe that. But point out any specific rider, anyone, and I'm not going to be confident in the least he was completely clean.
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
hrotha said:
Benotti69 said:
@NL_LeMondFans said:
David Moncoutié. 13th in the 2002 TDF.
raceradio called out Moncoutie before.
And failed to follow up on it when asked for more info. He basically just repeated some of the arguments that had already been addressed in the Moncoutié thread.
I Dont believe anyone can finish top 50 clean over 3 weeks.

You don't believe anyone can finish top 50 clean?
That's pushing it a bit no? Being 50th means finishing around 2 hours down on the winner. This years Giro it was nearly 3 hours. That means you can lose 20 minutes on every mtf and 5 minutes on the tt and still finish top 50. Not possible clean?
 
Aug 31, 2012
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It doesn't follow from it being possible to finish in the top 50 and be clean that if you finish in the top 50, then you are clean.

In cycling, suspicion of doping can come from science indicating that to perform this well, you need attributes that have never been measured in any human. If that's the case, that's a strong reason to believe someone is doping independent of all the other evidence. Other sports, skill based sports, do not have such results. We don't know the human limits of hitting the forehand down the line.

Yet all the other reasons to think someone's doping still apply, most importantly the probability of being caught being low and the benefit of doping being large, so we can still be reasonably sure Djokovic is doped to the gills, and we can still be reasonably sure the 50th guy in a GT isn't clean. But it's possible he is.
 
May 26, 2010
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Escarabajo said:
Benotti69 said:
Yes, i think we can know. I don't think a guy who rode for 15+ years clean would accept that he was the rightful winner of these races but due to others cheating he never got his just rewards! Sorry I don't believe a competitor can accept that, it goes against the idea of competition. Moncoutie was a competitor, wanted to win.
I don't think that he had the drive. He had the talent but never the drive according to some interviews out there. So not sure if your statement is correct either.
He didn't have the drive, yet he won KOMs, he didn't have the drive yet he raced for 15years, he didn't have the drive yet he competed in GTs winning stages............sorry but this is in the EPO era. Whatever about my logic!

I merely gave raceradio as someone who is connected in pro cycling, who has a valid opinion. Take it or leave it just like you can when a rider does nothing to prove he's clean except declare how hard he trains and how determined he is........

There are a myriad of reasons to point to 100% dirty peloton. The lessons of Bassons is one. Why have a guy on the team who is clean who will possible take umbridge at being beaten by lesser talents who dope? Make everyone dope then it becomes harder to spit in the soup. It doesn't make sense to have some dope and others not.
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
hrotha said:
Benotti69 said:
@NL_LeMondFans said:
David Moncoutié. 13th in the 2002 TDF.
raceradio called out Moncoutie before.
And failed to follow up on it when asked for more info. He basically just repeated some of the arguments that had already been addressed in the Moncoutié thread.
I Dont believe anyone can finish top 50 clean over 3 weeks.
Charly Mottet.
 
May 15, 2014
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Tonton said:
Benotti69 said:
hrotha said:
Benotti69 said:
@NL_LeMondFans said:
David Moncoutié. 13th in the 2002 TDF.
raceradio called out Moncoutie before.
And failed to follow up on it when asked for more info. He basically just repeated some of the arguments that had already been addressed in the Moncoutié thread.
I Dont believe anyone can finish top 50 clean over 3 weeks.
Charly Mottet.
I was thinking Andy Hampsten too. His 4th place in 1992 is quite something. But I believe this thread focuses on the early 00's right ?
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
hrotha said:
Benotti69 said:
@NL_LeMondFans said:
David Moncoutié. 13th in the 2002 TDF.
raceradio called out Moncoutie before.
And failed to follow up on it when asked for more info. He basically just repeated some of the arguments that had already been addressed in the Moncoutié thread.
I Dont believe anyone can finish top 50 clean over 3 weeks.
Someone could get in a break and move up in the classification. They may not win the stage but still, they could be clean and potentially advance into the top 50 couldn't they?
 
Jul 29, 2009
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Although it would be fun if Cyclingnews or one of the publications did a feature on trying to find the first clean rider of each tour and actually asked riders to nominate themselves as the winner it doesn't really work like that. Outside the top 10 or so the riders are not racing for position or time necessarily. They are not competiting against others in the way that the Top guys are. If there were 2 clean riders in the 2005 tour (bit of a stretch I know). Whoever of the two ended up with the higher placing was probably more circumstance rather than as a result of a competition between the two. If I was the one who finished in front I don't think I'd feel like the winner even if I knew I was the first clean rider. I wild feel proud of what I'd done however.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
hrotha said:
Benotti69 said:
@NL_LeMondFans said:
David Moncoutié. 13th in the 2002 TDF.
raceradio called out Moncoutie before.
And failed to follow up on it when asked for more info. He basically just repeated some of the arguments that had already been addressed in the Moncoutié thread.
I Dont believe anyone can finish top 50 clean over 3 weeks.
So you believe Lemond doped trou-out his GT career?

Either way, if Mottet can finish 4th clean, why shall clean Moncutie not finish 13th? Further how do you know that when Bassons left the peloton, he was the lone clean one?
How about Casar? Not every clean rider wrote newspaper articles, as not every non-corrupt integer politican loves to be in the spotlight.

Not everybody is evil Mr Benotti...
 
Pierrick Fédrigo was 29th in 2006, 32nd in 2008 and 48th in 2012.

Race Radio popped up with a two word post on Moncoutié (the words were "sadly, no") - hardly "calling him out" per se. But when pressed to explain why they had said this, they were extremely evasive and vague, saying that they'd spoken to people (none of whom were named) and heard things (none of which were specified) and they'd explained very clearly how they'd come to their opinion and it was pointless trying to hold a sensible discussion on the board so they wouldn't be elaborating. If what was said had come from a poster with less cache than Race Radio, it would have been rejected as baseless, if not an attempt at trolling (this was also around about the same time RR was defending Sky in the 2013 Tour as plausible, which caused quite a bit of friction; had it come from a poster like Joachim or mastersracer, it would definitely have been dismissed as such). I don't really see that Moncoutié would have needed to be doping to achieve the majority of his palmarès, including the Vuelta KOM jerseys. He won his four stages from the break, and picked his stages well. He didn't win those jerseys outclimbing the likes of Valverde, Mosquera and Evans, he won them by targeting a stage, outclimbing the likes of Montaguti, García da Peña and Martínez from the break and then taking leftover points where available. His tendency to sit on the back of the bunch meant he'd often lose time and was no threat overall, so the heads of state were happy for him to go for the points.
 
Aug 12, 2012
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Re:

SirLes said:
Although it would be fun if Cyclingnews or one of the publications did a feature on trying to find the first clean rider of each tour and actually asked riders to nominate themselves as the winner it doesn't really work like that. Outside the top 10 or so the riders are not racing for position or time necessarily. They are not competiting against others in the way that the Top guys are. If there were 2 clean riders in the 2005 tour (bit of a stretch I know). Whoever of the two ended up with the higher placing was probably more circumstance rather than as a result of a competition between the two. If I was the one who finished in front I don't think I'd feel like the winner even if I knew I was the first clean rider. I wild feel proud of what I'd done however.
This question would have intresting 10 years ago, or even 5, but no now.
 
Re: Re:

FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Benotti69 said:
hrotha said:
Benotti69 said:
@NL_LeMondFans said:
David Moncoutié. 13th in the 2002 TDF.
raceradio called out Moncoutie before.
And failed to follow up on it when asked for more info. He basically just repeated some of the arguments that had already been addressed in the Moncoutié thread.
I Dont believe anyone can finish top 50 clean over 3 weeks.
So you believe Lemond doped trou-out his GT career?

Either way, if Mottet can finish 4th clean, why shall clean Moncutie not finish 13th? Further how do you know that when Bassons left the peloton, he was the lone clean one?
How about Casar? Not every clean rider wrote newspaper articles, as not every non-corrupt integer politican loves to be in the spotlight.

Not everybody is evil Mr Benotti...
Of course Benotti thinks Greg LeMond doped. It's his view, which I disagree with it, that pretty much everyone on the peloton dopes, let alone those high achievers.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Libertine Seguros said:
Pierrick Fédrigo was 29th in 2006, 32nd in 2008 and 48th in 2012.

Race Radio popped up with a two word post on Moncoutié (the words were "sadly, no") - hardly "calling him out" per se. But when pressed to explain why they had said this, they were extremely evasive and vague, saying that they'd spoken to people (none of whom were named) and heard things (none of which were specified) and they'd explained very clearly how they'd come to their opinion and it was pointless trying to hold a sensible discussion on the board so they wouldn't be elaborating. If what was said had come from a poster with less cache than Race Radio, it would have been rejected as baseless, if not an attempt at trolling (this was also around about the same time RR was defending Sky in the 2013 Tour as plausible, which caused quite a bit of friction; had it come from a poster like Joachim or mastersracer, it would definitely have been dismissed as such). I don't really see that Moncoutié would have needed to be doping to achieve the majority of his palmarès, including the Vuelta KOM jerseys. He won his four stages from the break, and picked his stages well. He didn't win those jerseys outclimbing the likes of Valverde, Mosquera and Evans, he won them by targeting a stage, outclimbing the likes of Montaguti, García da Peña and Martínez from the break and then taking leftover points where available. His tendency to sit on the back of the bunch meant he'd often lose time and was no threat overall, so the heads of state were happy for him to go for the points.
Wasn´t Moncoutie also a "bad" descender? Add in the über-doped opposition, and you have a guy who really got screwed (like Casar, Bassons, Delion, and certainly many others).

Whatever. In the real world, it´s obvious that the peloton wasn´t and isn´t now 100% on drugs and transfusions as Benotti likes to have it seen.

BigMac said:
Of course Benotti thinks Greg LeMond doped. It's his view, which I disagree with it, that pretty much everyone on the peloton dopes, let alone those high achievers.
I thought Lemond is the only rider he considers as clean. Which ofc would be contradictory to his post that no one within the first 50 could do a GT clean... :confused:

Or he meant Lemond was clean when he finished that Giro 120something... ;)
 
Re: Re:

FoxxyBrown1111 said:
BigMac said:
Of course Benotti thinks Greg LeMond doped. It's his view, which I disagree with it, that pretty much everyone on the peloton dopes, let alone those high achievers.
I thought Lemond is the only rider he considers as clean. Which ofc would be contradictory to his post that no one within the first 50 could do a GT clean... :confused:

Or he meant Lemond was clean when he finished that Giro 120something... ;)
Apologies to Benotti if that's so.
 
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