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In 2012 who will be the best time trialist Andy*«*the little Boss*» or Contador

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In 2012 who will be the best time trialist Andy*«*the little boss*» or Contador?

  • Frank Schleck

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Aug 16, 2011
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Angliru said:
It's odd that those that didn't take this thread seriously, as many of us knew not to, are getting raked over the coals for some of their responses. Could it be your skin is a bit thin when it comes to criticism of Andy?

I am not taking this thread seriously one bit actually, as my first post in it should prove, I just get tired of going through a thread and seeing it turn into yet another hate thread. I would have said the same thing if it was a hate thread about Contador.
 
Jan 13, 2012
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LaFlorecita said:
"ToC" and "Lance and Andy" :eek:

Admitadly Contador is a superior rider to Leipheimer, the Schlecks, in GTs.
Admitadly the Giro is a superior race to the ToC, by a large margin.
Admitadly Gilbert is a far superior one day classics rider over any others.
So, why place hate on those who are not superior.
Why not let others root for the underdog sometimes?
If people get excited about riders like Danielson,T. why not let them have their fun. Why smash our heads like Gallagher smashes a watermelon?
 
The Plediadian said:
Admitadly Contador is a superior rider to Leipheimer, the Schlecks, in GTs.
Admitadly the Giro is a superior race to the ToC, by a large margin.
Admitadly Gilbert is a far superior one day classics rider over any others.
So, why place hate on those who are not superior.
Why not let others root for the underdog sometimes?
If people get excited about riders like Danielson,T. why not let them have their fun. Why smash our heads like Gallagher smashes a watermelon?

:confused:

What I meant was that a good amount of Americans get brainwashed by Phil and Paul, who are all "We <3 Armstrong, we <3 Andy"
 
Jan 13, 2012
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LaFlorecita said:
:confused:

What I meant was that a good amount of Americans get brainwashed by Phil and Paul, who are all "We <3 Armstrong, we <3 Andy"

I understand what you say and I respect your comment, I know you are not a hater.
Unfortunatly in the USA people do not get the big picture,(the world). So many here live in a myopic bubble, fed by media, without spending time even to look at a newspaper.
Traveling outside the states I appreciate it when people learn about history and current affairs. I am speaking of world politics.
In an example of US cycling sport Armstrong, Schleck. If that is all you know, that is all you know. As if they are the only riders.
Phil and Paul try to create a sport that people understand. They are mainstream media guys.
Horner probably disturbs them when he comes up with the line, those are facts, facts are facts. Sometimes Phil and Paul forget that.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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LaFlorecita said:
:confused:

What I meant was that a good amount of Americans get brainwashed by Phil and Paul, who are all "We <3 Armstrong, we <3 Andy"

Similarly, most of the posters on here have been brainwashed by the 'We hate Andy' stuff on here - too insecure to have their own opinions. Best fall into line. Don't want be branded a fanboy, a troll or a noob.
 
The Plediadian said:
Admitadly Contador is a superior rider to Leipheimer, the Schlecks, in GTs.
Admitadly the Giro is a superior race to the ToC, by a large margin.
Admitadly Gilbert is a far superior one day classics rider over any others.
So, why place hate on those who are not superior.
Why not let others root for the underdog sometimes?
If people get excited about riders like Danielson,T. why not let them have their fun. Why smash our heads like Gallagher smashes a watermelon?

Andy is the "underdog"?????????? He was one of the favorites for the Tour last year. Honestly, considering that Contador was coming off of the most challenging Giro in years, had crashed multiple times once the Tour started losing valuable time, with many of the gc contenders having crashed out and parcours very much to his liking, the Tour was his for the taking.

Essentially Andy is his worst enemy when it comes to public personna and many of his ridiculous statements to the press. A rider that is constantly talked up as one of the elite in the sport, gracing countless covers of magazines, the subject of endless video interviews and articles, it is because of all the attention he receives that there is a certain balance of criticism especially when one looks at his results over the course of relatively short career. Last year for instance, for all the attention he received he generated all of one win. I won't talk about his overall record in stage races of which he's supposed to be one of the best. I won't even argue that he isn't because he is, he just rarely shows it except, in the often repeated, month of July.

So I'd say the criticism he receives, at least here is just there to balance out the glowing adulation that the cycling media throws upon him. I'd like to believe we're providing a public service and at the same time doing Andy a favor by attempting to keep him grounded, hungry and not too full of himself.
Based on his statements to the media we're probably not trying hard enough.;)
 
Jan 13, 2012
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Angliru said:
Andy is the "underdog"?????????? He was one of the favorites for the Tour last year. Honestly, considering that Contador was coming off of the most challenging Giro in years, had crashed multiple times once the Tour started losing valuable time, with many of the gc contenders having crashed out and parcours very much to his liking, the Tour was his for the taking.

Essentially Andy is his worst enemy when it comes to public personna and many of his ridiculous statements to the press. A rider that is constantly talked up as one of the elite in the sport, gracing countless covers of magazines, the subject of endless video interviews and articles, it is because of all the attention he receives that there is a certain balance of criticism especially when one looks at his results over the course of relatively short career. Last year for instance, for all the attention he received he generated all of one win. I won't talk about his overall record in stage races of which he's supposed to be one of the best. I won't even argue that he isn't because he is, he just rarely shows it except, in the often repeated, month of July.

So I'd say the criticism he receives, at least here is just there to balance out the glowing adulation that the cycling media throws upon him. I'd like to believe we're providing a public service and at the same time doing Andy a favor by attempting to keep him grounded, hungry and not too full of himself.
Based on his statements to the media we're probably not trying hard enough.;)

True all: but one season with Bruyneel is all Andy will need, he will either prove himself a champion or break. If you look at Andy and Frank now as compared to last year, I think their attitudes have hardened up. I think Kloden and Horner are going to mentor those two.
Obviously a fine talent, Andy is close.
 
The Plediadian said:
True all: but one season with Bruyneel is all Andy will need, he will either prove himself a champion or break. If you look at Andy and Frank now as compared to last year, I think their attitudes have hardened up. I think Kloden and Horner are going to mentor those two.
Obviously a fine talent, Andy is close.

If you think their attitudes have "hardened up" then take a look at the latest
cover story/interview in Cycle Sport America (or just Cycle Sport if you're in Europe?) with Frank and Andy. I think you may change your mind.
 
Jul 25, 2011
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The Plediadian said:
True all: but one season with Bruyneel is all Andy will need, he will either prove himself a champion or break. If you look at Andy and Frank now as compared to last year, I think their attitudes have hardened up. I think Kloden and Horner are going to mentor those two.
Obviously a fine talent, Andy is close.

Not a fan of Bruyneel but what can he do with 100 km of ITT and Andy TT skills?

What can be an attitudes hardened?

And Horner as mentor...:D I hope they listen only Kloden
 
May 26, 2009
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Angliru said:
Andy is the "underdog"?????????? He was one of the favorites for the Tour last year. Honestly, considering that Contador was coming off of the most challenging Giro in years, had crashed multiple times once the Tour started losing valuable time, with many of the gc contenders having crashed out and parcours very much to his liking, the Tour was his for the taking.

Essentially Andy is his worst enemy when it comes to public personna and many of his ridiculous statements to the press. A rider that is constantly talked up as one of the elite in the sport, gracing countless covers of magazines, the subject of endless video interviews and articles, it is because of all the attention he receives that there is a certain balance of criticism especially when one looks at his results over the course of relatively short career. Last year for instance, for all the attention he received he generated all of one win. I won't talk about his overall record in stage races of which he's supposed to be one of the best. I won't even argue that he isn't because he is, he just rarely shows it except, in the often repeated, month of July.

So I'd say the criticism he receives, at least here is just there to balance out the glowing adulation that the cycling media throws upon him. I'd like to believe we're providing a public service and at the same time doing Andy a favor by attempting to keep him grounded, hungry and not too full of himself.
Based on his statements to the media we're probably not trying hard enough.;)

Bingo, we have a winner!!
 
Mar 13, 2009
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The Plediadian said:
True all: but one season with Bruyneel is all Andy will need, he will either prove himself a champion or break. If you look at Andy and Frank now as compared to last year, I think their attitudes have hardened up. I think Kloden and Horner are going to mentor those two.
Obviously a fine talent, Andy is close.

I think Andy is not a "true champion", nor does he necessarily aspire to be. I have been thinking about what Philippe Brunel said in "The road uphill" about the chaingate incident: at a certain moment, a true champion must leave everything and everyone behind, not care about controversy and only think about himself. It seems to me that Andy is not willing to do that, he is not willing to give up everything in order to succeed. It starts with the partying and ends with Fränk of course - a sports psychiatrist recently called it the "Schleck syndrome" - prefer to lose together rather than to win alone. The family bond holds him back, but it seems he doesn't want to break it. I believe the "patriarch" Johny, always present at the big races, also plays a big role in that.

Of course he still works and trains very hard, as he often responds to critics, you don't come in 2nd of the Tour by being lazy. But it seems to me he doesn't have the absolute will, or even the ambition to succeed - not at all costs, anyways (and I am not talking about clinic-related issues). Of course he could be more successful by dropping Fränk, by taking more risks, by targeting other races, but then again if he did, he wouldn't be Andy. When I saw the route of this year's Vuelta, I thought he should drop everything and target only the Vuelta, then later Lombardy and Worlds. But thinking that this would be a realistic possibility to him would be not acknowledging his personality. The Tour is the race he loves, so that is the one he'll always ride - if he wins it, great, if not, too bad.

I honestly get the impression that, should he never win it, he would be fine with it. He doesn't mind losing to a superior opponent like Cadel last year. What eats him up is that he thinks he got cheated out of a victory that should have been his. The same might be his problem with Sastre, who, in his eyes, left his own team mates behind. He is unable to understand Contador's actions and he would not have acted the same way, not because he is morally superior, but because he doesn't have the mindset of a true champion. And I don't think Bruyneel (or any directeur) will ever change that.


But why people hate him is beyond me :confused: ;)
 
Mar 13, 2009
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The Hitch said:
If he "doesnt mind losing to a superior opponent" whats his problem with Sastre

As I demonstrated in my essay, one of the qualities of a "true champion" is to leave everyone behind - friend or enemy. Andy, not having this mindset, is thus unable to comprehend Sastre leaving behind his own team mates and sees it as a betrayal, especially since the yellow jersey was already in the team. If it had been him, he would have prefered to work for Fränk and then lose together rather then win alone.

It's all there dude :confused::confused::confused::eek:

(Sorry, had to cut out your emoticons in order to make the 5 emoticons limit)
 
Christian said:
As I demonstrated in my essay, one of the qualities of a "true champion" is to leave everyone behind - friend or enemy. Andy, not having this mindset, is thus unable to comprehend Sastre leaving behind his own team mates and sees it as a betrayal, especially since the yellow jersey was already in the team. If it had been him, he would have prefered to work for Fränk and then lose together rather then win alone.

It's all there dude :confused::confused::confused::eek:

(Sorry, had to cut out your emoticons in order to make the 5 emoticons limit)

He lost to a superior opponent. And you wrote " He doesn't mind losing to a superior opponent".

So clearly he very much DOES mind because he has a problem with that Tour even though he lost to a superior opponent.

Also I see you framed the whole argument under "in andys mind" so we can't mention the Arenberg stage because you will then say "in Andys mind" that stage was ok (presumably because it was Andy being the aggressor not the victim).

But what then is his opinion about 2009. I see you conveniently didnt mention that.

Is it also invalid because of what happened in 2010 - Contador not letting Andy win ergo hes a big bad ogre ergo his wins don't count, or was 2009 a proper loss to a superior opponent?
 
Jul 2, 2009
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The Hitch said:
He lost to a superior opponent. And you wrote " He doesn't mind losing to a superior opponent".

So clearly he very much DOES mind because he has a problem with that Tour even though he lost to a superior opponent.

A teammate isn't supposed to be an opponent, superior or not.

(And Andy doesn't think he got 'cheated', Frank does.)

Ultimately, none of us know what the plan for CSC was supposed to be that day. History is written by the winners (and Riis taking the credit).
 
Jun 1, 2011
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Of course if we threw Klöden's name into the hat then there would be the reverse of fortunes. I hope Klöden can manage the form he had before last year's crash. His age is against him in a GT, but this year TDF is obviously a good one for him because of the ITTKs.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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The Hitch said:
He lost to a superior opponent. And you wrote " He doesn't mind losing to a superior opponent".

So clearly he very much DOES mind because he has a problem with that Tour even though he lost to a superior opponent.

The problem is he didn't see Sastre as an opponent, but as an ally, a team mate. Remember that it is often Andy, the superior team mate, who waits for Fränk.

The Hitch said:
Also I see you framed the whole argument under "in andys mind" so we can't mention the Arenberg stage because you will then say "in Andys mind" that stage was ok (presumably because it was Andy being the aggressor not the victim).

Of course I might be completely wrong, but I have exposed to you my reasons to define his mindset as such. The Arenberg forest does constitute a counter-example, an exception one might say, that I had not thought of, so thank you for bringing it up. There would be several possible explanations for it, but it would get us into a whole different discussions where we would again, I am afraid, disagree.

The Hitch said:
But what then is his opinion about 2009. I see you conveniently didnt mention that.

Is it also invalid because of what happened in 2010 - Contador not letting Andy win ergo hes a big bad ogre ergo his wins don't count, or was 2009 a proper loss to a superior opponent?

I am not exactly sure what you mean by this - could you explain? The way I see it, 2009 fits my theory exactly: Andy losing by 5 minutes to a clearly superior oponent (I did not hear him complain about it, but I might have missed some reports), and passing up a prestigious victory for the sake of his brother. Of course the plan to get his brother on the podium then failed - losing together rather than winning alone. Note that Andy has later also explained this by not wanting to present the stage win on a silver platter to Contador.

Also I never meant to portray the image of Contador (or any other "great champion") as a "big bad ogre", in my essay I specified that Andy's mindset is "(...) not morally superior", just different. I don't think he personally feels morally superior either, but again I have no way of knowing. I believe though when asked about the chaingate incident right after the stage, he did not explicitly condemn it, rather he said "I would not have liked to take the yellow jersey that way". Also I don't believe that he thinks that Contador's victory "doesn't count", since he has often said even if it is taken from him, he wouldn't care for having it.

In general though I did not really understand what you meant by the last part so I might not have adressed what you were trying to say
 

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