In Blood Stepped: The History Of Blood Doping In Sport

Page 10 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
1
0
Re:

Tienus said:
Day 0 7 14 15 21
Hb (mmol/L) 9·2 (0·3) 9·1 (0·3) 9·0 (0·3) 9·1 (0·4) 8·9 (0·4)
Range 8·6–10·3 8·7–10·1 8·5–10·2 8·4–10·1 8·0–9·9
PCV 0·45 (0·04) 0·44 (0·04) 0·43 (0·05) 0·44 (0·05) 0·42 (0·05)
Range 0·39–0·49 0·38–0·48 0·37–0·47 0·37–0·47 0·36–0·47
Hb and PCV from nine professional cyclists (n=9) during the
Tour de France in 1984

Looks like the data from the Panasonic squad. Do those numbers tell us anything?
which day(s) was the rest day?
numbers seem to go up a bit going from day 14 to day 15
 
Jan 30, 2016
1,048
0
0
Looks like there was only one rest day after stage 15.
http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdf1984.html

I'm not sure if the numbers really go up. There might be all sorts of explanations for it like normal fluctuations. Panasonic finished the tour with 8 riders this might also have influenced the mean.

I think the mean and the highest at the start of the tour are quite high. Panasonic spent much time at altitude in Font Remeu so this could be explained. I do think however that the drop after 3 weeks of tour (with 23 stages and only 1 rest day) is smaller than I would have expected. Maybe I'm wrong as I'm no expert on this.

I failed to make the table fit correctly in my post but the original can be seen here in the link from Aragon on the last page.
http://digitalarchive.maastrichtuniversity.nl/fedora/get/guid:9a1b20e3-5e78-410a-9513-823d9b27a7a9/ASSET1
the mean at the start of the tour is .45 and at the end .42 the highest sore at the start .49 vs .47 at the finish.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
1
0
Yes, that drop off seems small.
Important caveat: don't forget the impact steroids can have on blood values. (how exactly i have no idea though)

either way, it's hard to fathom they weren't doing some kind of blood boosting.
This is twelve years after Ekblom's paper and 12 years after the Germans started doing ozon therapy.
And meanwhile in LA the unpaid amateurs are fooling around with homologous blood transfusions, so what are the odds that the royally paid pros aren't doing something similar, or even more sophisticated.
 
Re:

sniper said:
Yes, that drop off seems small.
Important caveat: don't forget the impact steroids can have on blood values. (how exactly i have no idea though)

either way, it's hard to fathom they weren't doing some kind of blood boosting.
This is twelve years after Ekblom's paper and 12 years after the Germans started doing ozon therapy.
And meanwhile in LA the unpaid amateurs are fooling around with homologous blood transfusions, so what are the odds that the royally paid pros aren't doing something similar, or even more sophisticated.
I don't have access to my research file at this moment, but I have a recollection that Björn Ekblom told in 1975 that West Germans had blood doped one of their swimmers some times earlier and he broke the national record because of that. Very well-known West German exercise physiologist Wildor Hollmann had also published a study on blood doping as early as 1975 with researcher Richard Rost (referred incorrectly almost always in English literature as "Von Rost"). There was some debate a few years ago about the nature of that research when historian Giselher Spitzer claimed that it was R&D for doping purposes whereas Hollmann insisted that it was only a scientific inquiry.

I am not quite sure whether this Der Spiegel article from 1990 refers to the swimmer episode mentioned by Ekblom:
Und mit Professor Richard Rost wurde ein Sportmediziner an die Spitze des angesehenen Institutes für Sportmedizin in Köln gewählt, dem bei Experimenten mit Blutdoping vor den Olympischen Spielen in München beinahe ein Schwimmer gestorben wäre. Kraul-Spezialist Werner Krammel, damals 24, fiel bei einem Belastungstest bewußtlos vom Fahrrad-Ergometer und hatte "einen Herzstillstand von 30 Sekunden".

Der importierte Dopingfachmann Riedel wirkt inzwischen im Nebenjob segensreich für die Läuferinnen aus dem Westen, er betreut die bundesdeutschen Mittelstrecklerinnen. Aus seiner langjährigen Arbeit als Leichtathletik-Arzt in der DDR kennt er jeden Trick, mit dem die Athleten von drüben stark und schnell gemacht wurden.
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-13502181.html
 
Jan 30, 2016
1,048
0
0
either way, it's hard to fathom they weren't doing some kind of blood boosting.
This is twelve years after Ekblom's paper and 12 years after the Germans started doing ozon therapy.
And meanwhile in LA the unpaid amateurs are fooling around with homologous blood transfusions, so what are the odds that the royally paid pros aren't doing something similar, or even more sophisticated.
I totally agree. Reading up on the Panasonic team made me realize how sophisticated the team doping allready was back then. Blood was going from the tour to Maastricht where the values where determined before the next day. If blood was going to Maastricht then it could have also been going the other way.
I thought Panasonic biomedical was kind of a funny link to blooddoping but maybe I was closer to the truth than I thought. The lab in Maastricht still uses Panasonic equipment and sponsoring.
http://www.labvision.nl/redactioneel/lv23/incuberen-van-de-eerste-synthetische-hamburger.html
 
Jan 30, 2016
1,048
0
0
That Ros Story is interesting as its more proof that blood doping was going on before the Munich olympics.
 
Re:

sniper said:
This is twelve years after Ekblom's paper and 12 years after the Germans started doing ozon therapy.
And meanwhile in LA the unpaid amateurs are fooling around with homologous blood transfusions, so what are the odds that the royally paid pros aren't doing something similar, or even more sophisticated.
Time to remind people of the Irish blood doping programme. In the 1960s Shay Elliott - who rode as a domestique for Jacques Anquetil alongside Jean Stablinski - was an occasional visitor to the McQuaid household, as recounted by Pat McQuaid in the Shay Elliott biography, Shay Elliott. In the same way that Eddie Borysewicz learned about blood manipulation through Stablinski and Anquetil, Elliott is clearly the key - the father even - of the Irish blood doping programme (while Elliott did write about doping in one of the British Sundays he never mentioned the use of blood transfusions - a significant omission on his part which makes much sense now we know what we now know). Pat McQuaid himself went on to study Phys Ed where - obviously - he would have familiarised himself with all of the available literature. There is even a possibility that he himself may have contributed some of his own, pseudonymously, his adventures in South Africa demonstrating a fondness for doing things under assumed names. This knowledge was, obviously, used at the various international races the Irish competed at, in particular the Tour of Britain, the Worlds and the Olympics. It, obviously, also, was carried back into the professional peloton by the likes of Sean Kelly, Stephen Roche, Paul Kimmage, Martin Earley and Alan McCormack (coincidentally the five members of the Irish team on the day Stephen Roche won his World Championships - read into that what you will knowing what we know about what is happening in hotel rooms on their eve). Roche himself, he was able to refine his knowledge of the process by direct contact with Anquetil. David Walsh, ghosting Roche's autobiography, The Agony and the Ecstasy: Stephen Roche's World of Cycling (note to coy reference to amphetamines in the title - he really was shameless about these things), writes of the two meeting and of Anquetil advising Roche. Roche also had a particular fondness for Raphaël Géminiani, Anquetil's former mentor, who was his directeur sportif for a time, helping him to pull of that exploit on the Aubisque in 85, for which Roche acknowledges Gém had 'prepared' him fully in advance (we all know that that means all the available doping methods, including transfusions). And, of course, there's Sean Kelly, who unlike Roche was not a super responder to transfusions and invariably had a jour sans in the Tour after receiving one, which was particularly hard on him in 1983 when it cut short his stint in the yellow jersey, a story referred to by Willy Voet in Massacre à la chaîne where he, tellingly, fails to attribute it to a botched blood transfusions (which would have been a criminal offence in France at the time) and painted it more softly, blaming the wrong kind of cortisone. All of this Irish knowledge about blood, of course, culminated in 2007 with the introduction by none other than Pat McQuaid himself - the man who learned it all from Jacques Anquetil via Shay Elliott - of the blood passport, the surest way the UCI could find of legalising available blood manipulation practices without admitting to the world that it was legalising available blood manipulation practices. All of this also explains Sky's interest in David Walsh and Nico Roche: with the ABP in situ they had to wind back the clock to the days of Maître Jacques and so they sought the knowledge Walsh had from Roche and Roche Jnr had from Roche Snr. They would have called on Elliott himself but he blew his brains out with a shotgun won at the Vuelta, probably because of all the EPO he had taken.
 
Re:

Tienus said:
That Ros Story is interesting as its more proof that blood doping was going on before the Munich olympics.
Because there were some scientific inquirys on the blood doping already between the first media reports (September 1971) and when the actual Ekblom study was published (August 1972), it is difficult to pinpoint the exact nature of the 1972 Rost-experiment, whether it was an honest scientific inquiry or R&D for doping purposes. Historian Giselher Spitzer makes no mention about the incident in his recent inquiry into the doping practices of West Germany and Richard Rost himself writes in a textbook on sports medicine that blood doping became known only in 1976 when the accusations against Viren were in headlines during Montreal Olympics.

But some blood doping activity was going on, as one Finnish long distance runner admitted in 1981 that he received a blood transfusion before the 1972 Summer Olympics and implicated others. There is also quite reliable rumours regarding at least two other endurance runners (whom neither is Viren), with one claim going back to early as 1968.
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
sniper said:
This is twelve years after Ekblom's paper and 12 years after the Germans started doing ozon therapy.
And meanwhile in LA the unpaid amateurs are fooling around with homologous blood transfusions, so what are the odds that the royally paid pros aren't doing something similar, or even more sophisticated.
Time to remind people of the Irish blood doping programme. In the 1960s Shay Elliott - who rode as a domestique for Jacques Anquetil alongside Jean Stablinski - was an occasional visitor to the McQuaid household, as recounted by Pat McQuaid in the Shay Elliott biography, Shay Elliott. In the same way that Eddie Borysewicz learned about blood manipulation through Stablinski and Anquetil, Elliott is clearly the key - the father even - of the Irish blood doping programme (while Elliott did write about doping in one of the British Sundays he never mentioned the use of blood transfusions - a significant omission on his part which makes much sense now we know what we now know). Pat McQuaid himself went on to study Phys Ed where - obviously - he would have familiarised himself with all of the available literature. There is even a possibility that he himself may have contributed some of his own, pseudonymously, his adventures in South Africa demonstrating a fondness for doing things under assumed names. This knowledge was, obviously, used at the various international races the Irish competed at, in particular the Tour of Britain, the Worlds and the Olympics. It, obviously, also, was carried back into the professional peloton by the likes of Sean Kelly, Stephen Roche, Paul Kimmage, Martin Earley and Alan McCormack (coincidentally the five members of the Irish team on the day Stephen Roche won his World Championships - read into that what you will knowing what we know about what is happening in hotel rooms on their eve). Roche himself, he was able to refine his knowledge of the process by direct contact with Anquetil. David Walsh, ghosting Roche's autobiography, The Agony and the Ecstasy: Stephen Roche's World of Cycling (note to coy reference to amphetamines in the title - he really was shameless about these things), writes of the two meeting and of Anquetil advising Roche. Roche also had a particular fondness for Raphaël Géminiani, Anquetil's former mentor, who was his directeur sportif for a time, helping him to pull of that exploit on the Aubisque in 85, for which Roche acknowledges Gém had 'prepared' him fully in advance (we all know that that means all the available doping methods, including transfusions). And, of course, there's Sean Kelly, who unlike Roche was not a super responder to transfusions and invariably had a jour sans in the Tour after receiving one, which was particularly hard on him in 1983 when it cut short his stint in the yellow jersey, a story referred to by Willy Voet in Massacre à la chaîne where he, tellingly, fails to attribute it to a botched blood transfusions (which would have been a criminal offence in France at the time) and painted it more softly, blaming the wrong kind of cortisone. All of this Irish knowledge about blood, of course, culminated in 2007 with the introduction by none other than Pat McQuaid himself - the man who learned it all from Jacques Anquetil via Shay Elliott - of the blood passport, the surest way the UCI could find of legalising available blood manipulation practices without admitting to the world that it was legalising available blood manipulation practices. All of this also explains Sky's interest in David Walsh and Nico Roche: with the ABP in situ they had to wind back the clock to the days of Maître Jacques and so they sought the knowledge Walsh had from Roche and Roche Jnr had from Roche Snr. They would have called on Elliott himself but he blew his brains out with a shotgun won at the Vuelta, probably because of all the EPO he had taken.
I think you are really onto something there FMK, looks very dodgy and sinister. I will use my CI membership to demand a full investigation at the next AGM.
 
Oct 21, 2015
341
0
0
Re:

sniper said:
Yes, that drop off seems small.
Important caveat: don't forget the impact steroids can have on blood values. (how exactly i have no idea though)
People forget about that. There are a number of steroids that trigger erythropoiesis. These would have been well used in the 80s. The effect is significant.

When Floyd Landis used HGH with no other drugs, his hematocrit increased by three points. He gained seven to eight Watts in FTP per point during initial artificial increases of HCT, so that would be a ~5% FTP gain. That is very large at the elite level.
 
Re: Re:

DamianoMachiavelli said:
sniper said:
Yes, that drop off seems small.
Important caveat: don't forget the impact steroids can have on blood values. (how exactly i have no idea though)
People forget about that. There are a number of steroids that trigger erythropoiesis. These would have been well used in the 80s. The effect is significant.

When Floyd Landis used HGH with no other drugs, his hematocrit increased by three points. He gained seven to eight Watts in FTP per point during initial artificial increases of HCT, so that would be a ~5% FTP gain. That is very large at the elite level.
Excellent point..and there are a number of studies that support androgenic steriod-induced erythropoiesis. One study showed a ~9.6% increase in Hct with androgenic steriods, about the same percentage increase seen with some of the test subjects in Ashenden's microdose EPO study. Another study had a slightly higher percentage increase based on a dose-dependent use of testosterone:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3995222
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18160461

Curious; when did Landis first start using HGH? Was it before or in conjunction with blood doping when he signed on with USPS?
 
Re: Re:

sniper said:
I do not share your sentiments that some of it is just "unsubstantiated gossip that circulates from time-to-time".
If you think about motives, I can't think of any motive to just make up a story about being offered a blood bag anno 1966. Sure, theoretically the skater may have made it up, but it's more likely that it simply happened.
Iow, it doesn't sound "really questionable" to me; it sounds quite plausible.

Btw, the 1966 anecdote must be the same anecdote I referred to above, mistakenly putting it in the year 1976.

Another interesting thing from your post is Astrand's denial, anno 1973.
It suggests (together with other evidence from the time) that these researchers and physiologists, in that early period, were already well aware that the practice of blood boosting was (at least in the long run) going to be looked upon as cheating.
Here is some additional information on the alleged Jonny Nilsson's blood doping - incident of 1966.

As it is well established, Swedish speed skater Jonny Nilsson has claimed that exercise physiologist Björn Ekblom offered him an opportunity to use blood doping in 1966. The incident wasn't related to the Winter Olympics and took place at the beginning of February 1966 in Norway, just some three weeks before the Oslo Winter Olympics. Nilsson declined the blood doping offer and a few days later lost the 10000m event to his main Norwegian competitor Fred Anton Maier, who also shattered his world record. "You should've done as I told you and this hadn't happened", the doctor is quoted as saying to Nilsson in the locker room after the race.

There are some other brief references to the incident, this version comes from the the story published by the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation three years ago, where Ekblom isn't referred by name, but his name is linked to the story elsewhere.

https://www.nrk.no/sport/ble-tilbudt-bloddoping-i-1966-1.10911639

Nilsson also had actually revealed the blood doping proposal as early as 1999, but then he had another context for the proposal as the rationale "was not for doping purposes, it was pure research". The same article has Ekblom denying the incident and claiming that "blood doping didn't exist in 1966" (Aftonbladet, 9/29/1999).

Evolving recollections are itself highly suspicious, but the story has additional strange feature. The blood removal/storage/reinfusion process takes up to a month, but from Nilsson's chronology, the timespan from "refusal" to locker room incident is only a few days. It is always possible that he had already donated blood but declined the reinfusion or that the researchers used blood of a donour, a method of which none of the half a dozen of the published blood doping studies by Gymnastik och Idrottshögsköla (GIH) used, perhaps on practical and ethical grounds.

It could be that Ekblom was present in Oslo and had access to locker rooms in foreign countries, but it is very unlikely that then twenty-seven-year old Björn Ekblom was an accredited doctor of the Swedish speed skating team.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
1
0
Good info and analysis, Aragon, much appreciated.
You're right to take the anecdote with caution.

I reckon you know this book?
https://books.google.pl/books?id=5pTwCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=Per-Olof+%C3%85strand+blood+doping&source=bl&ots=DtQPwKB5-m&sig=XYmyzMTlGCJ-GML8UQVuOEHZE4o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAWoVChMI_8Smw-q5xwIVRtgsCh0QuwjS#v=onepage&q=Per-Olof%20%C3%85strand%20blood%20doping&f=false
The incident is described at the bottom of p.118 (which I can't see in my preview) and top of the p. 119.
It suggests something about Astrand making similar proposals to athletes, btw.
But no specifications, unfortunately. So it all remains very anecdotal/speculative, etc.


On a different note, wouldn't it be great to have access to US military literature. I read somewhere that in the 60s Frederick Hagerman's wrote his PhD for the US Army on the topic of how altitude effects soldiers in combat.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the US military were frontrunners in the development of blood transfusions for military - and by extension athletic - purposes.
Hence also my previous inquiry about Charles Drew. It's something I personally really lack the time to delve into. And I doubt that such literature can be accessed through regular libraries. (Or maybe there simply isn;t much to it, and maybe looking at the military is a red herring?)
 
Jan 30, 2016
1,048
0
0
If you simply look at the times for long distance running it certainly looks suspiscious from 1965 onwards. I know Ron Clarke and Kipchoge Keino explained their fast times by the fact that they stayed at altitude until just before the race. Pre 1970 times where good for a long time and you see the same patern in 5k 10k and the marathon.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/80dbe34ba30b26fe60d13e5c3c2f7754.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/9a42edfc412d76319d227b562aeda0e1.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/099a8bef5646f8096b49369a62424eec.png
 
While cleaning up some files I came upon this. It's from the LA84 site's archives and marked as coming from April 1954. It's not quite O2 vector doping but not without interest either, partic WRT the way performances were changing even ahead of blood transfusions:
Is the oxygenation of athletes a form of “ doping ” ?
In an article written by Mr. Gabriel Hanot, the French sport Bulletin L’Équipe recently published a report on the topic of the oxygenation of athletes. While quoting a few passages of this report we wish to mention a few of the personal opinions of experienced people on the subject.
It goes on to talk about the use of oxygen in football, particularly in South America. And Europe:
At a Conference held at Liverpool by the British Medical Sport Association, Roger Bannister, a medical student of world fame as runner of half distance race, made the following statement : all records would be beaten were we to administer oxygen to athletes in a manner similar to the one used in connection with the victorious team of the Everest climbers. From personal experiences made in Oxford, he is able to record the fact that : “While breathing the ambient fresh air, signs of fatigue make their appearance about the 7th or 8th minute afterwards as against only 22 or 23 minutes after the taking of oxygen.”
Others suggest it works better as récup:
According to Mr. Scopelli, the present trainer of the team “Espanol” of Barcelona and the most ardent supporter of the application of oxygen to footballers during half time and at the conclusion of the match. this inhaling of oxygen presents no effect of “doping,” it does not provoke any feeling of elation nor does it act as a stimulant. The players of his club have observed that after the administering of oxygen on the night of the performance, they feel much calmer than before, they sleep better and feel more rested the next day.
And, as to be expected, there's the inevitable claim that its performance results are nothing more than the placebo effect:
It seems that oxygen applied under medical supervision is harmless and that it does not present, under any form whatsoever, the characteristics of a drug except perhaps when acting on the imagination, as was the case with the bottle of sugar and water that was carried by the famous cycling manager of past heroic days : Choppy Warburton.
(Note: it was only in the 1990s that Warburton became a proto-Ferrari, his reputation had been well rehabilitated after his death.)
 
Re:

sniper said:
Good info and analysis, Aragon, much appreciated.
You're right to take the anecdote with caution.

I reckon you know this book?
https://books.google.pl/books?id=5pTwCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=Per-Olof+%C3%85strand+blood+doping&source=bl&ots=DtQPwKB5-m&sig=XYmyzMTlGCJ-GML8UQVuOEHZE4o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAWoVChMI_8Smw-q5xwIVRtgsCh0QuwjS#v=onepage&q=Per-Olof%20%C3%85strand%20blood%20doping&f=false
The incident is described at the bottom of p.118 (which I can't see in my preview) and top of the p. 119.
It suggests something about Astrand making similar proposals to athletes, btw.
But no specifications, unfortunately. So it all remains very anecdotal/speculative, etc.
I know the book and I am very familiar with the other writings of my fellow Finn Erkki Vettenniemi, who has written and edited several books on the history and ethics of anti-doping.

Vettenniemi has arguably the best knowledge on the historical source material on doping issues and there is a huge amount of interesting bits and pieces here and there in his books and articles. While there are several inconsistencies in the mainstream narrative of blood doping, having gone through a large amount of his mostly Finnish sources, I can only conclude that some of his claims are based on very weak material and most of his "revisionist" "new" findings are borderline embarrassing.

It is my impression that the Ekblom-, Åstrand- and Gjermund Eggen - material is on the more trustworthy side of his source material. Eggen is a Norwegian triple-gold medallist cross country skier who - according to the Finnish folklore - was the "first" blood doper in the 1966 Winter Olympics. Vettenniemi claims elsewhere that he has even a contemporary newspaper source from 1966 to back up the claim that an unnamed Norwegian cross-country skier went into a hospital to elevate his blood values in 1966.

Instead of writing a 10000+ word essay debunking his material, I can provide some background information if you have some a specific claim from that book that is of interest to you.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
1
0
Re: Re:

Aragon said:
sniper said:
Good info and analysis, Aragon, much appreciated.
You're right to take the anecdote with caution.

I reckon you know this book?
https://books.google.pl/books?id=5pTwCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=Per-Olof+%C3%85strand+blood+doping&source=bl&ots=DtQPwKB5-m&sig=XYmyzMTlGCJ-GML8UQVuOEHZE4o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAWoVChMI_8Smw-q5xwIVRtgsCh0QuwjS#v=onepage&q=Per-Olof%20%C3%85strand%20blood%20doping&f=false
The incident is described at the bottom of p.118 (which I can't see in my preview) and top of the p. 119.
It suggests something about Astrand making similar proposals to athletes, btw.
But no specifications, unfortunately. So it all remains very anecdotal/speculative, etc.
I know the book and I am very familiar with the other writings of my fellow Finn Erkki Vettenniemi, who has written and edited several books on the history and ethics of anti-doping.

Vettenniemi has arguably the best knowledge on the historical source material on doping issues and there is a huge amount of interesting bits and pieces here and there in his books and articles. While there are several inconsistencies in the mainstream narrative of blood doping, having gone through a large amount of his mostly Finnish sources, I can only conclude that some of his claims are based on very weak material and most of his "revisionist" "new" findings are borderline embarrassing.

It is my impression that the Ekblom-, Åstrand- and Gjermund Eggen - material is on the more trustworthy side of his source material. Eggen is a Norwegian triple-gold medallist cross country skier who - according to the Finnish folklore - was the "first" blood doper in the 1966 Winter Olympics. Vettenniemi claims elsewhere that he has even a contemporary newspaper source from 1966 to back up the claim that an unnamed Norwegian cross-country skier went into a hospital to elevate his blood values in 1966.

Instead of writing a 10000+ word essay debunking his material, I can provide some background information if you have some a specific claim from that book that is of interest to you.
thanks for the background info and thanks for the offer!
If some of these people (who according to vettenniemi used or were offered transfusions) are still alive, would there be a chance to interview them? That might be the only possible way to corroborate some of the rumors.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
1
0
(continued...)
Still, despite all the methodological caveats which you rightly point out, it's good to see that at least people have *tried* to unravel the history of blood doping in the Scandinavian realm.
For the US, it seems almost nobody is looking or has looked at this.
We have the popularized myth, call it folklore, that LA 84 was the first time transfusions were used in the US, and everybody seems very happy to keep this consensus.
 
Re:

sniper said:
(continued...)
Still, despite all the methodological caveats which you rightly point out, it's good to see that at least people have *tried* to unravel the history of blood doping in the Scandinavian realm.
For the US, it seems almost nobody is looking or has looked at this.
We have the popularized myth, call it folklore, that LA 84 was the first time transfusions were used in the US, and everybody seems very happy to keep this consensus.
first time they were 'caught' perhaps...no need to manufacture folklore where none exists
 
Re:

sniper said:
(continued...)
Still, despite all the methodological caveats which you rightly point out, it's good to see that at least people have *tried* to unravel the history of blood doping in the Scandinavian realm.
For the US, it seems almost nobody is looking or has looked at this.
We have the popularized myth, call it folklore, that LA 84 was the first time transfusions were used in the US, and everybody seems very happy to keep this consensus.
Just for clarification.

To think that the main goal of Vettenniemi is to find the hidden bodies of the blood doping in Scandinavia or to reconstruct a comprehensive narrative of the subject is a vast misrepresenting of his views, as he has stated that his goal is to get rid of the Finno-centric narrative of the history of blood doping. If you actually make a synthesis of his main beliefs, he seems to believe the following things simultaneously:

1) Almost everybody (New Zealanders, Finns etc.) blood doped in 1970s...
2)... but Swedes and Norwegians were in the vanguard and blood doped already in 1960s...
3)... but even they weren't first transfusers because everybody knew how to blood dope already in mid-1940s and most likely blood doped from that point onward.

Just for the record, one must emphasize that he has a good knowledge on the issue and source material and he has done several brilliant articles on the subject of doping, of whom one is this:
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/JSH/JSH2010/JSH3703/jsh3703h.pdf

Still occasionally his intrepretation of his source material brings into my mind the famous remark attributed to economist Ronald H. Coase about confirmation bias -- "If you torture the data long enough, it will confess".
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
1
0
@gillian, agreed on both accounts.

@aragon, I'm done for tonight but will catch up with that tomorrow. Really good, cheers.
 
Re: Re:

Aragon said:
Just for the record, one must emphasize that he has a good knowledge on the issue and source material and he has done several brilliant articles on the subject of doping, of whom one is this:
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/JSH/JSH2010/JSH3703/jsh3703h.pdf
One of his other Nurmi articles came up a few times when I was originally researching those blood doping pieces, the one about the testosterone snake oil. Have to confess, there's something about Vettenniemi that makes me wary of him, like with Jean-Pierre de Mondenard. You admire the depth and breadth of their knowledge but you do feel like they're over-reaching sometimes.

The Nurmi story is totally fascinating, the obsessive need some have to knock him off his pedestal, the crazy lengths they go to to drag him down to the gutter. Couldn't happen anywhere other than Scandinavia, that.
 
Re:

Tienus said:
If you simply look at the times for long distance running it certainly looks suspiscious from 1965 onwards. I know Ron Clarke and Kipchoge Keino explained their fast times by the fact that they stayed at altitude until just before the race. Pre 1970 times where good for a long time and you see the same patern in 5k 10k and the marathon.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/80dbe34ba30b26fe60d13e5c3c2f7754.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/9a42edfc412d76319d227b562aeda0e1.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/099a8bef5646f8096b49369a62424eec.png
The records of Ryun, Keino and Clarke from 1960s are good and remain decent results to this day (especially true to Ron Clarke), but otherwise the seasonal bests of 1965-1970 aren't that impressive, for instance at 10000m there are several years when nobody ran under 28:00.

By focusing on a larger group of top runners, people usually make the case that time progress was very linear until 1990, after which both 10k and 5k improved suddenly and dramatically for one reason (EPO) or another (European managers searching for Kenyans and Ethiopians). Ross Tucker has dealt the issue on his website:

http://sportsscientists.com/2016/08/world-records-fossils/
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS