In Simple Terms what is....

[Anonymous]

So is VO2 Max trainable? Surely it would be quite easy to take some fairly fit athletes (say, amateur footballers), test their VO2 Max, have them train intensively and test it again. Has this type of research been done.

Interesting article http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/VO2max.html

This part is gives a different spin on the importance of VO2 Max;

VO2 Max as a Predictor of Performance

In elite athletes, VO2 max is not a good predictor of performance. The winner of a marathon race for example, cannot be predicted from maximal oxygen uptake (15).

Perhaps more significant than VO2 max is the speed at which an athlete can run, bike or swim at VO2 max. Two athletes may have the same level of aerobic power but one may reach their VO2 max at a running speed of 20 km/hr and the other at 22 km/hr.

While a high VO2 max may be a prerequisite for performance in endurance events at the highest level, other markers such as lactate threshold are more predictive of performance (3). Again, the speed at lactate threshold is more significant than the actual value itself.

Think of VO2 max as an athlete’s aerobic potential and the lactate threshold as the marker for how much of that potential they are tapping.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

V02 max....can someone sum up, in SIMPLE terms what v02 max is...

It's roughly how much fuel an athlete can burn......which affects how much energy they have available, to use to go fast.

To burn fuel (last nights pasta), you need to react it with oxygen. In an athlete, how much fuel gets burnt is mostly limited by how much oxygen they can absorb and use.

Basically, the amount of oxygen and carbon dioxide in an athletes breath is measured while they are exercising hard. The information is used to figure out how much oxygen the athlete is turning into carbon dioxide, i.e. how much fuel they are burning.

The blood doping stuff is all about the process where oxygen is absorbed and used by the body. 'Absorb and use' sounds simple, but there's lots of complicated stuff about how much oxygen the blood can carry to the muscles etc. Blood doping increases how much oxygen the blood carries, and therefore it does increase VO2 max. Which is what the whole kerfuffle about Antoin Vayers estimate (disgracefully dodgy IMHO) of Contador's VO2 max at 99 ml/kg/min. I think most pro cyclist's VO2 max results are between 70 - 80 ml/kg/min. Above 80 = potential legend, above 90 = freak of nature; apparently there have been two such freaks recorded ...

Please note: this is a non-physiologists explanation, don't treat it as gospel, corrections/clarifications welcome

 

[_frost]

So is VO2 Max trainable? Surely it would be quite easy to take some fairly fit athletes (say, amateur footballers), test their VO2 Max, have them train intensively and test it again. Has this type of research been done.

I don't know if exactly a setting that you describe has been done because there even isn't a question if vo2max is trainable. When you activate a coach potato to exercise it is one of the first adaptations that happen really quickly in a form of growt of blood plasma volume and next growt of heart during next few weeks.

It tells how much oxygen your cardiovascular system can deliver to the muscles and the muscles utilise. Where cardiovascular system and especially cardiac output is the key.
so

It's roughly how much fuel an athlete can burn aerobically (involved in any performace exceeding ~40 seconds) ......which affects how much energy they can generate aerobically...

(I think that is what you meant)

What does blood doping and EPO do here is increase the number of oxygen carrying agents in blood. While you cannot practicly change the cardiac output (once you have trained your potential) what you can do is to increase the blood oxygen carrying capacity so that with the same heart pumping action more oxygen is carried to the muscles.

Here's a fairly simple description: http://www.nismat.org/physcor/max_o2.html

Are you guys asking this for real or just having fun seeing what kind of conversation can be got out of it?

 

[riobonito92]

http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/VO2max.html has some figures that I have simplified for maximal oxygen uptake (for approx 20-30 yr old males)

Nordic Skiing: 65-94
Cyclists: 62-74
Rowers: 60-72
Soccer: 54-64
Basketball: 40-60
Weightlitfting: 38-52
Non-athletes: 43-52

Does this mean that (a)you choose your sport depending on your VO2 Max (you become a cyclist because you are naturally good at it, if you can't keep up you play basketball instead) (b) Everyone actually has a potential VO2 Max of at least around 70 but only endurance athletes ever attain it or (c) Cyclists and Nordic Skiiers take the most drugs.

94!!! Give that guy a bicycle.

And, sometimes people join a forum to get educated, not to be patronized. There does really seem to be an open question as to whether or not VO2 Max is trainable. From the posts and the articles, it seems that a person's upper limit for oxygen uptake may be genetically determined but that most people are performing below their upper limit and so training would help improve their performance. That something like (b) above is the right answer: most people's potential, if not actual, upper limit is approximately 70 unless they have an unusually low body weight, in which case it might be 80 and that a VO2 Max of 90 is only attained by "freaks" and cheats.

 

[Milessio]

1: VO2max IS trainable.

A study by physiologist Veronique Billat found that after 8-10 weeks of addaing VO2max interval sessions to training of runners their VO2max increased by 10%

2: 70% of VO2max tests do not find the VO2 plateau i.e. the athlete stopped before a true VO2max value could be found, so the value found was just that when the athlete gave up.

3: VO2max assumes that oxygen uptake is the limiting factor in performance & from various studies e.g. Journal of Physiology 2006, it does not seem to be the case.

Mark Cavendish is probably very wise to leave VO2max well alone and just train hard & win lots of races.

Triathlete Magazine August 2009 p86 - 91

 

[cromagnon]

It's simply a measure of the peak rate of oxygen uptake of an organism.

Your EXPIRED air is measured over a certain period lets say 60 seconds for arguments' sake.

The lower concentration of oxygen in the expired air relative to ambient oxygen is noted down. You then simply calculate the difference and that tells you how much oxygen the subject has taken in during that minute.

It's not perfect because you do not know how efficiently that oxygen is being used neither do you know which metabolic pathways are being utilized.

If you had Thor Hushovd on the ergo, you would find a lot of his power in the latter stages of a maximal test would come from anaerobic glycolysis. However that can usually be maintained by a powerhouse for 20+ minutes. So his oxygen uptake might be truly enormous but it does not guarantee a given performance over a longer effort of an hour or more. For that you must factor in lactate threshold and efficientcy. Essentially "ow long can you maintain the highest percentage of your VO2 max" and "how fast are you going at that given power production". Things like aerodynamics, mchanical efficiency and metabolic pathways affect efficiency - how well that oxygen is put to use.

If you have a VO2 measure, an idea of efficinetcy and lactate threshold - your predictions are more likely to be accurate.

I don;t think I will ever be able to spell efficientcy properly - sorry

 

[_frost]

If you had Thor Hushovd on the ergo, you would find a lot of his power in the latter stages of a maximal test would come from anaerobic glycolysis. However that can usually be maintained by a powerhouse for 20+ minutes. So his oxygen uptake might be truly enormous but it does not guarantee a given performance over a longer effort of an hour or more. For that you must factor in lactate threshold and efficientcy. Essentially "ow long can you maintain the highest percentage of your VO2 max" and "how fast are you going at that given power production". Things like aerodynamics, mchanical efficiency and metabolic pathways affect efficiency - how well that oxygen is put to use.

What does power or metabolic pathway in the maximal test have to do with VO2Max?

 

[cromagnon]

What does power or metabolic pathway in the maximal test have to do with VO2Max?

I moved onto the application of the VO2 measure.

And why it's not enough to predict performance in as a stand-alone measure. I sincerely hope you're a beginner and that's just an honest question.

If you're on a Sports Science course and you ask that question, you should ask for your money back.

 

[Bala Verde]

Could cyclists improve their oxygen carrying and delivering efficiency, or their oxygen cell metabolism efficiency, by training their breath-holding capacity...

I am trying to make a connection between the 'extreme free diving' competitions, where people dive without gear to extreme depths on only one breath of air. Link here

I don't know if some of the physiological aspects, and their training, would be useful in cycling. Or does it share similarities with altitude training?

*honest question*

Secondly, every cyclist nowadays seems to jump in an ice-bath, and wears cooling vests before TTs etc.

Is this a fad or a serious improvement in the cycling industry?

 

[riobonito92]

Does one wear a cooling vest before or after warming up for 45 minutes?

 

[_frost]

I moved onto the application of the VO2 measure.

And why it's not enough to predict performance in as a stand-alone measure. I sincerely hope you're a beginner and that's just an honest question.

If you're on a Sports Science course and you ask that question, you should ask for your money back.

Am I wrong in assuming that english is not your first language (like it is not mine)? If that's the case we can probably just skip this because I simply do not understand what you are talking about.

And no, I am not on a sports science course, I am not even a beginner. Where I come from the basis of human physiology were part of the highschool biology 20 years ago .

 

[usedtobefast]

Could cyclists improve their oxygen carrying and delivering efficiency, or their oxygen cell metabolism efficiency, by training their breath-holding capacity...

I am trying to make a connection between the 'extreme free diving' competitions, where people dive without gear to extreme depths on only one breath of air. Link here

I don't know if some of the physiological aspects, and their training, would be useful in cycling. Or does it share similarities with altitude training?

*honest question*

Secondly, every cyclist nowadays seems to jump in an ice-bath, and wears cooling vests before TTs etc.

Is this a fad or a serious improvement in the cycling industry?

just speaking for myself. ice on muscles or bruises helps immensely . i think
we have all heard that it does. not overheating before any event, where
staying cool is not an option, makes sense. i remember guys were sitting
in ice filled tubs for recovery. it works, damn cold, so not much fun though.