Inga Thompson - and "cleaning house"

[mountainrman]

As to whether "everybody" was doping...

150 samples from 1998 and 1999 TDFs were retested. Less then 10% percent of those samples tested positive for EPO. Sadly, most of that 10% turned out to belong to one rider.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/riders/2005/interviews/?id=damien_ressiot_05

Which is the test I related to you of Ashenden - and it becomes clear from the affidavits of other riders, that there was a lot more doping going on. So it shows who was glowing, not who was doping. Hinacpie and Leipheimer say (and we only have their word for it) they stopped in 2006/7. Rabobank owned up till 2007 and there were many other riders in other cases and teams.



It is wishful thinking to believe that that was the scale of the problem.

 

[arjanh]

As to whether "everybody" was doping...

150 samples from 1998 and 1999 TDFs were retested. Less then 10% percent of those samples tested positive for EPO. Sadly, most of that 10% turned out to belong to one rider.

Yes, but those tests don't exactly form a random sample of the peleton.

 

[reginagold]

No, but it's at least a slightly better point of reference than "everyone was doping", "no they weren't", "yes they were and I know because I have more posts than you" etc.

And the tests were disproportionately of the successful riders, assuming riders did want to place well in stages of the 1998 and 1999 TDF.

It's real tests of real riders at the top of the sport in those years. I dunno, tests of maybe 50-70 different riders? Lance plus a couple of others test positive? What's that equal, um 4% of the tested riders were positive for EPO?

And this in a year where a) there was no test available for EPO, and b) even if a test later became available, the samples could not be used to sanction a rider. Lance looked at those risks and said "why not?" But many others reached a different conclusion.

I know I know, then we have to say the widespread abuse didn't start until after 1999... yada yada yada.

 

[DirtyWorks]

No, but it's at least a slightly better point of reference

No, not really. The range of results is negative->suspicious->positive. Anything less than a positive is a "never tested positive therefore I don't dope" result.

Generally speaking, there is a heavy bias towards generating either suspicious or negative results for some tests. This is where the completely legitimate idea that the bio-passport is an IQ test comes from. You would have to be an idiot to dope at levels that cross the positive threshold.

There's some elegant research with a tiny population of EPO users whose blood samples were sent out to WADA labs for testing. Most passed and were getting meaningful benefits from EPO use.

 

[mountainrman]

No, but it's at least a slightly better point of reference than "everyone was doping", "no they weren't", "yes they were and I know because I have more posts than you" etc.

And the tests were disproportionately of the successful riders, assuming riders did want to place well in stages of the 1998 and 1999 TDF.

It's real tests of real riders at the top of the sport in those years. I dunno, tests of maybe 50-70 different riders? Lance plus a couple of others test positive? What's that equal, um 4% of the tested riders were positive for EPO?

And this in a year where a) there was no test available for EPO, and b) even if a test later became available, the samples could not be used to sanction a rider. Lance looked at those risks and said "why not?" But many others reached a different conclusion.

I know I know, then we have to say the widespread abuse didn't start until after 1999... yada yada yada.

The test failure argument is not helpful. Hamilton tells you it was easy to pass tests by knowing the glow times. But worse than that you either trust the evidence of people or you do not. Hamilton also says that without doping you struggled to keep up with the back of the peloton, let alone the front

Jaksche said that he was a member of six teams and everyone had the same or similar doping programs. A lot of teams were known doping regimes - take Hamiltons teams post Discovery and the teams of Operation Puerto, Rabobank admissions, Cofidis admissions, the list is endless.

Many of the domestiques on USPS/discovery were also drug taking according to the testimonies - but they will not have been tested often and dont show in your list.

So the statistic of 10% simply does not stack up UNLESS you do not believe the testimonies of the reasoned decision participants - in which case you have another problem which is you lose the case against Lance since it is based on them.

You have to decide whether you think they are credible or not. And if they are credible , it paints a different picture. 10% only relates to one particular drug test .

I think the rule changes and protocols have to be put in place to allow testing up to a decade later on any new tests. It is a more productive game than trying to work out who was doing what in the year 2000.

 

[reginagold]

No, not really. The range of results is negative->suspicious->positive. Anything less than a positive is a "never tested positive therefore I don't dope" result.

Generally speaking, there is a heavy bias towards generating either suspicious or negative results for some tests. This is where the completely legitimate idea that the bio-passport is an IQ test comes from. You would have to be an idiot to dope at levels that cross the positive threshold.

There's some elegant research with a tiny population of EPO users whose blood samples were sent out to WADA labs for testing. Most passed and were getting meaningful benefits from EPO use.

I'm only suggesting this data is better than....nothing. Which is what we have in support of the posters claiming everyone doped.

Now I do think it is relevant to note Lance seems to have been proven to have had the best program all along. If Lance and his crew couldn't defeat six of these tests, what's a rationale for thinking that others were using epo with enough more sophistication that they weren't caught by the retrospective tests?

And a rhetorical question - if they avoided being pinged by these tests because they were using a significantly lower or otherwise less effective program then didn't these tests serve as a proxy to show who were the effective dopers in those years?

While this turn of discussion may bore a few, it is quite necessary to understand the actual scope of the problem for there to be any effective solution.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I'm only suggesting this data is better than....nothing. Which is what we have in support of the posters claiming everyone doped.

And I'm saying it's not. It's about as good as nothing because it only shows the stupidest athletes. Meanwhile anecdotal information paints and entirely different picture.

Now I do think it is relevant to note Lance seems to have been proven to have had the best program all along.

Well, "best" is pretty vague. We know he appeared to be a super-responder to EPO and we know others do not respond as well. We also know the UCI offered assistance a number of ways and still are. If best is some combination of being an EPO super-responder and getting UCI protection, then we agree.

If Lance and his crew couldn't defeat six of these tests, what's a rationale for thinking that others were using epo with enough more sophistication that they weren't caught by the retrospective tests?

You keep referring back to the testing as if it's really doing something. At best, it is catching the dumbest doper. It's sure is elaborate though!

And a rhetorical question - if they avoided being pinged by these tests because they were using a significantly lower or otherwise less effective program then didn't these tests serve as a proxy to show who were the effective dopers in those years?

It's not a proxy because it's the "cleanest peloton ever" if you just look at test results. Magically, they follow the UCI's PR response #2 close behind #1's "cleanest peloton ever", "only 2% or less dope."
We now know both were not true and probably still not true. Give WADA the authority to open cases and fund back-dated testing! The scandals that would follow would make the current controversies quaint!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So anyway - back to Inga comments.

Obviously as someone who has ridden clean and feels tarnished by the actions of others she is perfectly entitled to feel angry and frustrated with the state of the sport.

I think retesting of previous samples would have limited results in terms of exposing dopers. Perhaps the idea of Truth & Reconciliation would address that for her (and indeed all clean riders).
And the use of existing samples could actually be used to corroborate testimony from the riders.

 

[reginagold]

I have to say the idea of using a Truth and Reconciliation program, while appealing to all who doped and or assisted doping, is an approach that will further destroy the sport. Truth and Reconciliation programs have been used where there have been mass killings and other severe human rights violations that render the rebuilding of anything resembling a civil society impossible.

Yeah right, let's equate some cheaters in cycling with those situations and see where the global reputation of the sport ends up.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I have to say the idea of using a Truth and Reconciliation program, while appealing to all who doped and or assisted doping, is an approach that will further destroy the sport. Truth and Reconciliation programs have been used where there have been mass killings and other severe human rights violations that render the rebuilding of anything resembling a civil society impossible.

Yeah right, let's equate some cheaters in cycling with those situations and see where the global reputation of the sport ends up.

Firstly - I completely understand your view, as I pretty much share all that you said.

But it comes back to one critical point - how to break the circle and state that the sport is in. I have not seen anything other than T&R put forward that breaks it.

Also, it is not equating sports cheats with other (real) atrocities.
I argued that very point recently - that in other circumstances T&R was effective because there was literally blood on both sides.
But in sport, to break the cycle of deceit something not tried before needs to be considered and actioned.

 

[reginagold]

Firstly - I completely understand your view, as I pretty much share all that you said.

But it comes back to one critical point - how to break the circle and state that the sport is in. I have not seen anything other than T&R put forward that breaks it.

Also, it is not equating sports cheats with other (real) atrocities.
I argued that very point recently - that in other circumstances T&R was effective because there was literally blood on both sides.
But in sport, to break the cycle of deceit something not tried before needs to be considered and actioned.

I suggest what is needed is the creation of a system that ensures the sport is clean going forward. Now we all know the limitations of testing. There will always be scientists and other drs. who for the right fee will subvert the latest testing protocols. I think that drives us towards a solution that involves severe and consistent across borders punishments for involvement in any kind of doping. The risk will need to be jail time, fines at least equal to your earnings, and removal of your coaching/riding/directing license. Such a system instituted today with uniform rules across borders would allow cycling to start fresh, at least in the minds of the hundreds of millions of July only fans - alas, the only fans that matter from a global growth perspective.

Yes, there already is criminalization of certain aspects in France, Italy, some argue also in Spain. But it is a global sport and without a global system of rules and punishments, it is demonstrably easy to circumvent existing rules.

The hard work that no one seems ready to undertake is to look at the existing rules country by country and determine what would need to happen, legislatively, in each country to create a uniform and rigorous system.
"Harmonization" it is called in other arenas such as the global fight against money laundering. And this approach need not, in fact must not, be cycling specific for it to succeed. But some sport would have to lead the way, and cycling, now on a sponsorship deathbed, has the most to gain from leading such an initiative.

Does this help the "Ingas"? At best, only in the indirect manner that the sport lives and grows going forward and she is free to search for other testing evidence that helps show what percentage doped in any given year or multiyear period. Tyler details who did, and did not, on one of the most doped up teams to ever exist. Not everyone on those teams doped, nor did they all get the top stuff. And they were dominant - so the other teams must have been doing "less" somehow, given that, as this forum so often states, the marginal gains possible are merely rounding errors in calculating how much EPO and related drugs increase power.

T and R approach is a sad sideshow, at best, imho.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I suggest what is needed is the creation of a system that ensures the sport is clean going forward. Now we all know the limitations of testing. There will always be scientists and other drs. who for the right fee will subvert the latest testing protocols. I think that drives us towards a solution that involves severe and consistent across borders punishments for involvement in any kind of doping. The risk will need to be jail time, fines at least equal to your earnings, and removal of your coaching/riding/directing license. Such a system instituted today with uniform rules across borders would allow cycling to start fresh, at least in the minds of the hundreds of millions of July only fans - alas, the only fans that matter from a global growth perspective.

Yes, there already is criminalization of certain aspects in France, Italy, some argue also in Spain. But it is a global sport and without a global system of rules and punishments, it is demonstrably easy to circumvent existing rules.

The hard work that no one seems ready to undertake is to look at the existing rules country by country and determine what would need to happen, legislatively, in each country to create a uniform and rigorous system.
"Harmonization" it is called in other arenas such as the global fight against money laundering. And this approach need not, in fact must not, be cycling specific for it to succeed. But some sport would have to lead the way, and cycling, now on a sponsorship deathbed, has the most to gain from leading such an initiative.

Does this help the "Ingas"? At best, only in the indirect manner that the sport lives and grows going forward and she is free to search for other testing evidence that helps show what percentage doped in any given year or multiyear period. Tyler details who did, and did not, on one of the most doped up teams to ever exist. Not everyone on those teams doped, nor did they all get the top stuff. And they were dominant - so the other teams must have been doing "less" somehow, given that, as this forum so often states, the marginal gains possible are merely rounding errors in calculating how much EPO and related drugs increase power.

T and R approach is a sad sideshow, at best, imho.

You asked a question there.
The answer is actually no, it does not help the Ingas.

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.
But it is all forward looking and essentially (& I am not flaming when I say) it is a must do more & must do better type wish, then an actual working policy.

Harmonization? Of rules - already done by WADA. Of criminal laws? Never been done - and I doubt cycling or sport is going to united Nations.
And even in countries with criminal laws on doping they have had little effect on the practice - eg; Italy.

This is what Inga wrote:

I, for one, want proof of my innocence. I’m not looking for medals or even stolen prize money at this point. I want my honor back. I was among those who made the right choice during the most difficult time in the sport. I want that on my résumé. I’m not the only one that wants proof of my bravery to make the right choice in the most difficult of situations.

....thats a powerful statement.
It is the honor of her achievements that she feels she has had taken away, not just prizes and results. Only by exposing the past can her honour be restored - and IMO some of the ideas you make have any chance of working.

Did I like the idea of T&R when I first heard it? Nope and in many ways I still don't - but its T&R - the R is reconciliation.

 

[reginagold]

Well, it is a tough road. But the sport is being marginalized more each day by the steady flow of more bad stories. There is no legal authority in place in any country, to my knowledge, to protect anyone who does T and R type confessions from criminal or other liabilities. A viable T and R approach would seem to require some legislative solutions in many countries. The key players will inevitably turn out to have engaged in money laundering or other criminal actions needed for their schemes to get and share the "products."

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Well, it is a tough road. But the sport is being marginalized more each day by the steady flow of more bad stories. There is no legal authority in place in any country, to my knowledge, to protect anyone who does T and R type confessions from criminal or other liabilities. A viable T and R approach would seem to require some legislative solutions in many countries. The key players will inevitably turn out to have engaged in money laundering or other criminal actions needed for their schemes to get and share the "products."

To the highlighted - I think the sport has been at rock bottom for a long time now.
But what had happened to address its problems was merely PR - it was always doomed to fail (many of us here have been highlighting this for years)
So, what is needed is far reaching reform and a new approach.

Which sortof addresses the rest of your post.
Effectively new rules and new approaches have to be adopted - that is why WADA have given a reserved welcome to some of the suggestions.
The situation appears so large and engrained in the culture of the sport that some authorities will probably have to allow some temporary amnesty or relaxation of certain rules.

 

[skippy]

How can we expect " Harmonisation " when those in control , are " Making up the rules ", as they roll about laughing at those they control ?

just now noticed Contador is going to be paying out SFr 45000 !

yesterday Katusha , previously advised they were Pro world , are told to " Pass GO " and start over for " Pro Conti status " , some time in the future !

CCN.org has passed 4300 sign ups BUT there are millions out there that are having their Sport destroyed by a couple of phats in aigle !

TIME TO ACT not WAFFLE !

 

[DirtyWorks]

There is no legal authority in place in any country, to my knowledge, to protect anyone who does T and R type confessions from criminal or other liabilities. A viable T and R approach would seem to require some legislative solutions in many countries. The key players will inevitably turn out to have engaged in money laundering or other criminal actions needed for their schemes to get and share the "products."

Except the IOC has gone to some lengths on a nation-by-nation basis to keep their sports out of criminal law. IOC members are no strangers to bribery. The Aussie selected to run the UCI's investigation fully admitted to bribing IOC members to win theh Sydney bid. No law against it because it didn't happen in-country. The IOC has this scam working pretty nicely.

I have a more direct suggestion: Give WADA the authority to open cases against athletes in 30 days or less and then there will be a flood of positives across many IOC sports. This coupled with back-dated testing with current penalties will discourage, not eliminate, doping.

As long as WADA is weak, the doping party rages on as long as the sports federations want.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I agree, that was very well written. And I see no reason to believe she isn't speaking the truth as she knows it. This part really stood out to me:

I’m pretty sick of listening to these dopers whine about how hard it was to walk away because of the pressure. They just had to dope because of the peer pressure or they didn’t want to stand up and do the right thing. Frankly, it’s pathetic that they didn’t have the backbone to make the right choice under pressure.

We need more people like this. As noted in other threads I do thank Hincapie, Levi, JV, etc. for finally talking and admitting the truth. But that doesn't make them champions. They were, as Inga noted, without a backbone when they, the sport and fans, needed it from them most. It's a damned shame it took the Eliot Ness of sports (Tygart) to stand up to bullies like Armstrong, JB and Ferrari when other riders were too cowardly to even utter a peep.

Now, leaving aside the question that we must ask, i.e. "Is she being honest in claiming to be clean?"

Sadly, that does give us pause in today's world. Even if we look at another woman's sport, swimming, recall when Amy Van Dyken spit in Inge De Bruijn's lane, and claiming she swam like a man. Except it was Van Dyken who was embroiled in the BALCO scandal. Thomson is right in that women are not free from doping, not even close. It's idiotic to think so.

But the difference is that I think Thomson came up during a clean era, and was "replaced" by a major doping area (akin to LeMond), the swimmers above were racing at the likely apex of doping in their sport. This alone lends a lot of credence to her claim.

 

[dpcowboy]

"We need more people like this. As noted in other threads I do thank Hincapie, Levi, JV, etc. for finally talking and admitting the truth. But that doesn't make them champions. They were, as Inga noted, without a backbone when they, the sport and fans, needed it from them most. It's a damned shame it took the Eliot Ness of sports (Tygart) to stand up to bullies like Armstrong, JB and Ferrari when other riders were too cowardly to even utter a peep."
Agree so much it hurts.
Everyone makes mistakes, everyone deserves forgiveness, and in this case, every confessed doper deserves a chance to do something else with their life, away from cycling...just take your cowardliness away and fix mufflers for a living...anything...just go. I have been fast, slow, fat, fit, all of it, and I have seen the syringes and Pot Belge,
and speed and blow; and now it is in age group racing, so I am disillusioned there, too...
time to just ride my bike for fun. And that is the result of this mess.

 

[ustabe]

Everyone makes mistakes, everyone deserves forgiveness, and in this case, every confessed doper deserves a chance to do something else with their life, away from cycling...just take your cowardliness away and fix mufflers for a living...anything...just go. I have been fast, slow, fat, fit, all of it, and I have seen the syringes and Pot Belge,
and speed and blow; and now it is in age group racing, so I am disillusioned there, too...
time to just ride my bike for fun. And that is the result of this mess.

I haven't seen it quite the way you put it, but you make a compelling case.