Is a 50 watt gain realistic?

[bc_hills]

Hi,

I'm trying to come up with a realistic 1 year goal... I'd like to go from sustaining 270 watts for an hour and a half (long 7% avg. climb) to sustaining 320 on the same climb for a little less time.

Does this seem realistic? I'm quite fit but haven't done much regimented power training (only recently picked up a power meter) so I don't know what's realistic. I'd like to do this without losing weight, so the only way I can improve my time is to improve my watts.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Oldman]

If you've never done interval or power training it should be very possible. You will likely lose (fat) weight in the process as the intensity begins to stimulate your metabolism. That's why many are skeptical about pro rider's ability to make significant gains when they have raced for years and suddenly claim huge improvement-without racing. Even the most disciplined pro would find it difficult to replicate race intensity. You are starting from a relative scratch position and should enjoy the results.

 

[CoachFergie]

What is your 3min and 20min power?

How long can you sustain 320 watts for?

 

[PDXWheels]

Hi,
I'd like to do this without losing weight, so the only way I can improve my time is to improve my watts.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Why on Earth would you not want to lose weight?

 

[bc_hills]

What is your 3min and 20min power?

How long can you sustain 320 watts for?

3min power intervals go at about 410 - 420 and I've never done a 20 min interval!

My 16 K (10 mile) time trial speed is about 37 km/hr which gives a 25 min time or something like that... I didn't have a power meter until recently so I don't have any numbers from tt'ing. Is this raw number translatable into watts (I'm 85 kilos including the bike and it's a relatively flat out and back ride)? It's not a tt bike, just a road bike in the drops.

I haven't tried to see how long I could sustain 320... the data I'm working with is from a recent result... I didn't have any baseline power numbers so I didn't even know what I should be gunning for. Now that you mention it, I should get out there and try and sustain 320...

It's not that I don't want to lose weight, it's just that I want to concentrate on the power side of the power/weight ratio more than the weight side of the ratio!

 

[Night Rider]

Why on Earth would you not want to lose weight?

I don't want to speak for the OP but I'm in a similar position, I want to dramtically improve my climbing power and times but don't want to lose any weight. It will compromise other areas of my riding too much and I get too sick when I drop to super low fat percentages.

That may be similar reasons to the OP.

 

[Night Rider]

I'm quite fit but haven't done much regimented power training (only recently picked up a power meter) so I don't know what's realistic.

What sort of power meter did you get?

 

[brianf7]

My 10 mile TT times are 22min on average course and I am 65yo my average power output is 260 watts if that gives any idea.
At 65 yo I dont expect to improve my power output any more but I get 850 max in a sprint.
Keep at it but I find good long base training is most important and at least 1 long ride a week.
Its not all about power you need to get the muscles working well and blood fats down as low as posible.

 

[kielbasa]

3min power intervals go at about 410 - 420 and I've never done a 20 min interval!

My 16 K (10 mile) time trial speed is about 37 km/hr which gives a 25 min time or something like that... I didn't have a power meter until recently so I don't have any numbers from tt'ing. Is this raw number translatable into watts (I'm 85 kilos including the bike and it's a relatively flat out and back ride)? It's not a tt bike, just a road bike in the drops.

I haven't tried to see how long I could sustain 320... the data I'm working with is from a recent result... I didn't have any baseline power numbers so I didn't even know what I should be gunning for. Now that you mention it, I should get out there and try and sustain 320...

It's not that I don't want to lose weight, it's just that I want to concentrate on the power side of the power/weight ratio more than the weight side of the ratio!

For that short term power, it seems that 270 W sustained is still well short of your potential. FWIW, when I was sustaining 270 W on climbs I could only do 360-370 for 3 min (I'm much lighter than you ). It may be useful for you to determine your power profile to get an idea of what kind of natural ability you have (sprinter, pursuiter, TT-ist) and go from there. Click here for more info. Remember, the best way to improve sustainable power is well, to ride continuously hard. Research Sweet Spot Training (SST). It has worked great for me.

 

[CoachFergie]

3min power intervals go at about 410 - 420 and I've never done a 20 min interval!

I just use a 3min and 20min test to determine FTP using the Monod Critical Power equation. Although if you have a climb that takes 60min you could do a 60min test.

My 16 K (10 mile) time trial speed is about 37 km/hr which gives a 25 min time or something like that... I didn't have a power meter until recently so I don't have any numbers from tt'ing. Is this raw number translatable into watts (I'm 85 kilos including the bike and it's a relatively flat out and back ride)? It's not a tt bike, just a road bike in the drops.

Sorta matches up with where your power sits. Picking you may have good anaerobic capacity based on your 3min power.

I haven't tried to see how long I could sustain 320... the data I'm working with is from a recent result... I didn't have any baseline power numbers so I didn't even know what I should be gunning for. Now that you mention it, I should get out there and try and sustain 320...

If Lance held 6.0 watts per kilogram in the uphill TT for 44min in 2004 at the Tour and I can hold that for 79sec it's pretty clear that I am never going to hit that target.

You are aiming to go from 3.1W/kg to 3.8W/kg for ~90min so how long you can sustain 3.8W/kg or 320watts will give an indication of where you are at and how possible this improvement may be.

It's not that I don't want to lose weight, it's just that I want to concentrate on the power side of the power/weight ratio more than the weight side of the ratio!

You can drop body fat and improve power which gives you the double whammy for the power/weight. I worked out I would gain more for my 3000m pursuit goal by dropping 5kg than increasing my 3min power by 30 watts. Probably a bigger hit as 5kg would not only mean inc W/kg and lower frontal area but also able to get into more aero position.

I concur with Keilbasa about hitting the SST and some longer L4 efforts. Looks like your level 5 power is pretty good some the gains are going to come from increasing L4 power and the SST will add to this and if there is scope to lose body fat will help with the calories in vs cals out side of things as well.

 

[Vegan Dave]

How long have you been training, and have you made much progress on your 1.5hr time in the last year or two?

If you haven't tapped your potential for rapid progress (ie, being more of a novice in aerobic training), seems possible, but it'll likely be a stretch.. Assuming your 270w is accurate of your current potential, you're looking at almost a 20% improvement to hit 320w...that's quite a lot for 1yr. 10% would be signifcant for most people who are well-trained.

Spending a lot of time (20-60min) at 320w is certainly a good way to achieve your goal, and slightly shorter intervals at 10% higher (350w) will also be useful (maybe 8-12mins with 1-2min rests, do 2-4.)

If these seem insanely difficult or impossible to do now, you might want to re-examine your goal....otherwise this is what you should be able to do to start hitting your desired wattage...

I did something similar last summer, aiming to get my 20min from ~270w to 300w, and i came pretty close, ~290w over 2mos.. I just started riding at 300w. Would do 4min on, 1min rest, 4mins on, etc. They were 'easy', so bumped it up to 5min, 6mins, and got up to 12mins on, 1min rest, 12min, etc... (Then ran out of summer.)

Mind you i have traditionally trained more for sprinting/anaerobic efforts, so my 20mins+ wattages aren't nearly so high, and could improve pretty quick. This year the improvements were much smaller and seemingly harder.

Haven't focused nearly as much on these types of workouts, but peaked at 295w for 20min.

Hope that helps!!

 

[oldborn]

Hi,

I'm trying to come up with a realistic 1 year goal... I'd like to go from sustaining 270 watts for an hour and a half (long 7% avg. climb) to sustaining 320 on the same climb for a little less time.

Does this seem realistic? I'm quite fit but haven't done much regimented power training (only recently picked up a power meter) so I don't know what's realistic. I'd like to do this without losing weight, so the only way I can improve my time is to improve my watts.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Hi there!

Is it realistic to go from 270w to 320w? I seems to me that you are in good shape. Power meter is most acurate for that but try to combine others methods as well, maybe you gonna be tired, maybe is windy, and your power meter will show some less wats than you want. Do a long base aerobic training, and treshold uphill training which is also great, then go for a serius high intensity intervals.

Wish you luck!

 

[memyselfandI]

I need more power too I am medium small sized (173 and 64 kilos) and 17 yrs. I can do round 370 for 3 minutes and 350 for 5 minutes and 320 for 20 minutes right now, but thats not good for timetrialing. I have trained 2,5 yrs. Is 50 watt after coming winter realistic, it is much isnt it?

 

[bc_hills]

Thanks for all the feedback! Sounds like my goal might be a little optimistic, but no impossible. That's mostly what I needed to figure out.

CoachFergie, when people talk about about W/KG numbers, does the weight include the bike weight? I'm 75 kgs in body weight. I don't think I could lose 5 kilos and not turn into a nut job that only thought about eating!

VeganDave, you're a pretty elite rider aren't you? That's what has me a little concerned about my goal... seems like moving into the 300 watt range (sustained) is really stepping up the game. Would you say that it becomes exponentially more difficult to go from 270 to 300 than to go from 300 to 320 and so on? I guess it must be, there are limits after all. What do GC riders sustain on climbs, around 400?

I'm going to print up this topic for the training ideas... the road season is pretty much over where I live (just wet and cold until it snows). In the winter I rely on XC skiing and BC touring to stay in shape until the spring comes. I find skate skiing to deliver the same kind of pain profile that riding does, so it must be good! Anybody else put the bike away for the winter but still come out strong in the spring?

Thanks again!

 

[bc_hills]

My 10 mile TT times are 22min on average course and I am 65yo my average power output is 260 watts if that gives any idea.
At 65 yo I dont expect to improve my power output any more but I get 850 max in a sprint.
Keep at it but I find good long base training is most important and at least 1 long ride a week.
Its not all about power you need to get the muscles working well and blood fats down as low as posible.

What do you weigh? 22 mins over 10 miles is really good! You must be putting out more than 260 watts for that kind of effort, no?

 

[CoachFergie]

W/kg is body weight alone.

I would give it a crack but as with the body fat thing (seeing TdF riders diet down for July) it's a case of "how bad do you want it".

 

[oldborn]

Thanks for all the feedback! Sounds like my goal might be a little optimistic, but no impossible. What do GC riders sustain on climbs, around 400?

I'm going to print up this topic for the training ideas... the road season is pretty much over where I live (just wet and cold until it snows). In the winter I rely on XC skiing and BC touring to stay in shape until the spring comes. I find skate skiing to deliver the same kind of pain profile that riding does, so it must be good! Anybody else put the bike away for the winter but still come out strong in the spring?

Thanks again!

It is not impossible, well i know for Basso 370wats.

Off season skate skiing are great, also running and skating, and of course gym training whole body workouts, but Coach Fergie will not agree with me.

 

[CoachFergie]

It is not impossible, well i know for Basso 370wats.

Off season skate skiing are great, also running and skating, and of course gym training whole body workouts, but Coach Fergie will not agree with me.

It's actually higher than that for Basso. I put his FTP at around 432 in the Giro last year.

I would do whatever it takes to stay fit over the winter. I'm a bike riders and never lose interest in riding the bike even if it means the odd indoor session through the winter. Some rain, cooler days and the odd 7.1 earthquake is the extent of our winter so we can ride through. Snow would put a damper on things so yeah XC skiing and skating sounds cool and a way to keep the aerobic workouts going. You could try and keep the aerobic capacity going in the gym but gosh that would be boring.

 

[Vegan Dave]

VeganDave, you're a pretty elite rider aren't you? That's what has me a little concerned about my goal... seems like moving into the 300 watt range (sustained) is really stepping up the game. Would you say that it becomes exponentially more difficult to go from 270 to 300 than to go from 300 to 320 and so on? I guess it must be, there are limits after all. What do GC riders sustain on climbs, around 400?

"Elite" is pretty generous! Let's go with "experienced". =)

I've been training with power for 4yrs, and have read quite a bit, so fairly familiar with the topic..

It does get harder, and gains become smaller as time passes..assuming you're training efficiently.

400w FTP sounds about right for the top pros...many can hold 300w+ for many hours.. It's hard to say what you're capable of until you get some more solid numbers, like doing proper 20 & 60min FTP tests, and trying out some of the intervals i described. If you're acing them, then you're going to hit the goal, if the intervals are murdering you....well....might be worth reconsidering....

 

[durianrider]

If someone is 85kg and wants to increase power to weight, they are going to 100% drop some body blubber in doing so.

 

[Bike Boy]

I prefer to drop a question in here insted of starting a new thread, here it goes:

I'm easily confused by all the terms in this subject, mainly because I don't have SRM or any of that good stuff. Nevertheless I find it very interesting, especially when I'm in the gym where you can read the power output on the bikes.

If any body can help with a simple explanation to the most common terms it would be very helpfull. Maybe drop a good link to a site with educational value.

I think I figured out the term FTP by my self. Functional Threshold Power (right?). If I'm correct it's the power ouput you can keep for 60 minutes (I'm not sure if it has to be 60 minutes though).

 

[Indurain]

From Cyclingnews.com 6 Oct 2010
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/cyclingnews-fitness-q-and-a-october-6-2010

FTP query
This is sort of a similar question to the one answered in the September 24 Fitness Q&A.

I did a full hour-long FTP test on the trainer and had an average power output of 300 watts (normalised was 301). Then a few weeks after that I did a Pro/1/2/3 crit with two big hills every lap and finished with average power of 266 watts but normalised power of 344 watts - way above the 301 I did under controlled conditions.

Which number should I use as a baseline for all of the tempo/threshold/VO2Max, etc. intervals, the 301 or the 344? It is such a wide number (120 percent of 344 is 412 watts - not so repeatable but 120 percent of 301 is 361 - very repeatable).

Thanks guys, read all of the columns, really appreciate it.

Brad Shipley

Dave Palese says:

Brad,

You want to use the 301 average.

Normalised power and average power are looking at the intensity and work you are doing from two different perspectives.

Average Power looks at the actual mechanical (muscular) work done over a period of time and them averaged using a number of samples.

Normalised Power is a metric for quantifying the physiological effect of an effort. NP is a way to better view how hard a ride really was. Not just how hard and how often you pedaled.

The actual power measured in watts fluctuates greatly, as you know from looking at your files, but the body's systems don't turn on and off or switch from one to the other just because you stop pedaling on a descent after a hard hill. It's this difference that normalised power represents.

So hopefully you can see that you should use the Average Power measured in your test versus the Normalised Power from the crit. You want to set-up your training levels to reflect the mechanical work you are capable of doing.

This all said, I would encourage you to do another testing session using a shorter test effort. Try 20 minutes and subtract five percent from your Average Power during that effort. See if it aligns well with your one-hour number.

I've found that except for the most motivated riders, a solo one-hour effort as a test yields a low FTP estimation. One exception to this is if the effort is recorded during a competitive time trial. But even then, only the most motivated riders will yield the most accurate numbers.

I hope this helps. If you have further questions, let me know. Have fun and good luck!

24 Sept 2010
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/cyclingnews-fitness-q-and-a-september-24-2010

Power question
Two weeks ago I completed a 20-minute test for my lactate threshold. I held 276 watts for the duration and calculated my FTP to be around 262 watts. The following week I did a 100+ mile cat 1/2 rode race and found that my Normalised Power was 269 watts.

I have read that NP should be approximately close to functional threshold power during a one hour race such as a criterium. My question is how was I able achieve a NP this close to my FTP. Is this normal?

Thank you very much,

Michael

Scott Saifer says:

Michael,

The FTP is sometimes used as a proxy for lactate threshold power. It is defined to be the power one can maintain for an hour, but that power depends on myriad factors, such as hydration, nutrition, ambient temperature, motivation, sleep, fatigue, distractions among others, and not just on physiological fitness.

It's unlikely you'd have a normalized power during a four-hour race that is higher than your physiological lactate threshold power, but if your FTP was measured under less than ideal conditions, you could well have a normalised power higher than your poorly measured FTP. That's why many coaches, myself included, would recommend testing FTP from race and training results rather than specifically in an FTP test. The best FTP you ever extract from any ride is your real FTP.

 

[straydog]

To the OP I would say this:

A 20% increase in functional power is optimistic but not impossible, and not knowing you or your athletic background it is impossible to tell at what point in your progression you are at now. However, that being said if you are looking for those sort of gains you will need to be very disciplined and structured, and that definitely includes your recovery.

I would suggest something like, two days hard, one day active recovery or two weeks progressively harder followed by one week active recovery as training cycles.

The hard needs to be HARD and consistent. Maybe try some red line intervals: 3 mins at 10% above 270 watts followed by 3 mins 10% below 270 watts. Do this 4-6 times then take 5 mins spinning recovery then repeat 2-3 times. Try it a couple of times a week. Not on consecutive days though. The next week try 12-15% above, on week 4 (3 is recovery) try 15-17% and so on.

Also mix in some anaerobic intervals, with the recovery time being reduced weekly and definitely some steady state, low (65-75) rpm, 15-20 minute climbs at or just under threshold.

And make sure your power meter is correctly calibrated.

Good luck