Is Carbon Road tech that much better than Carbon Mtn bike Tech

[bc_hills]

I'd go as far as to suggest that a Carbon fibre frame made in Taiwan these days is of higher quality than any manufactured in Europe.

Care to back this claim up? Or does making a claim in the form of a suggestion free you from the mundanities of argumentation and evidence?

I'm gonna go ahead and suggest that money spent on a Look frame is money well spent, if you're into that kind of high end road bike thing.

Do you hate the French?

 

[Boeing]

Care to back this claim up? Or does making a claim in the form of a suggestion free you from the mundanities of argumentation and evidence?

I'm gonna go ahead and suggest that money spent on a Look frame is money well spent, if you're into that kind of high end road bike thing.

Do you hate the French?

BC
I ride a Look! and a Tallboy

and thanks for pointing out my question isnt apples to apples earlier.

but in general, looking at both bikes I can only assume that a lot of R&D goes into a carbon Fully what with all the pins and levers for the suspension. the torque on the lever pivots and the weave and bonding of the frame around them I assume is more than a sprint out of the saddle on a roadie isnt it?

again not apples to apples but I just cant justify the cost of the new Look or the like any more.

(memo: no I am not biter Look doesnt offer Industry Pricing pro deals etc)

 

[Boeing]

The Look may not be the best example because it is a module, including Cranks, Stem, seat post and the associated bearings.


Economics 101 increase a products want and as a direct effect you change the demand elasticity

good point on all accounts. although I paid a lot for my 595 and don't assume a product can't price itself out of the market

 

[Boeing]

Does it? Or does it drive the bike companies' marketing departments? It seems to me that a lot of the change that is promoted by the industry is change for the sake of change with neglible benefits for the end customer. In other words it is planned obsolescence. I think I would also argue that the insane prices of the high end has pulled the middle upward.

Again, my central point, which is in answer to the OP, is that at the top end of the road market high price has become a main selling point of the product. Bikes are interesting in that beyond a certain price point, and it is not very high, there is little to no real world difference between products. To make the situation even more absurd, the market is driven by recreational riders for whom even large differences would have no effect. What does fifty grams mean to a bike pathlete whose major goal for the summer is the local MS150? Yet those tards will pay thousands of extra dollars for bragging rights about something that will not make a whit of difference to their riding.

The situation has become so pathological that superior products have been eclipsed. A case in point is the prebuilt wheel market. Instead of wheels being custom built for a customer's weight and use out of easily replaceable components, we now have one size fits all wheels made with parts that are impossible to find after a few years sold for a higher price. If a spoke breaks while training, the rider is screwed because the low spoke count will warp the wheel to an unrideable state. In the last two years while riding in BFE I have bumped into three sorry SOBs standing on the side of the road with an unrideable wheel. I do not see that as progress. I see it as stupidity.

you have a few good points in here but I can't figure our why it is so important to you to tell us you are better and smarter than the average rider all the damn time

you sound like the guy who surges in front on hiss pull on a group ride...hahahaha

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

you have a few good points in here but I can't figure our why it is so important to you to tell us you are better and smarter than the average rider all the damn time

you sound like the guy who surges in front on hiss pull on a group ride...hahahaha

Here we are on a topic that attacks the process and DM chooses to attack the person.

Got hypocrisy? I guess we can change it to be more accurate.

Here we are on a topic that attacks the process and Boeing chooses to attack the person.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I take it you think every one should only own what you can afford?
Should Bill Gates only buy a crap bike because he isn't a racer? Dang I am a D bag because I bout super record and a c-50. I only paid $4000 for it so am I less of a d-bag?

Bill and you should buy whatever you desire.

If you buy high-end carbon frames from the few crazies who really, actually make their own stuff in the EU/U.S./etc, then much higher price is driven by cost of doing business being so much higher in the West.

Just understand that in the specific instance of buying very high priced carbon bike frames sourced in Asia, you are being made a fool. The Trek/Specialized/whatever product coming out of Asia is not that special. I know I've offended legions of believers, but the fact the major brands get away with it has inspired dozens of equally non-special copycats.

The overwhelming majority of Asian carbon product is excellent quality, just very low cost.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

I am not sure where to put this. It does follos DirtyWorks' last post, so suck on it.

http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/light-composite-bikes-made-in-china-slammed-by-uci-execs/011462

 

[bc_hills]

BC


but in general, looking at both bikes I can only assume that a lot of R&D goes into a carbon Fully what with all the pins and levers for the suspension. the torque on the lever pivots and the weave and bonding of the frame around them I assume is more than a sprint out of the saddle on a roadie isnt it?

Yeah, I never thought of it that way, but that sounds right. It's interesting to note that Look doesn't make a fully. I wonder what they'd charge for that?

 

[bc_hills]

Bill and you should buy whatever you desire.

If you buy high-end carbon frames from the few crazies who really, actually make their own stuff in the EU/U.S./etc, then much higher price is driven by cost of doing business being so much higher in the West.

Just understand that in the specific instance of buying very high priced carbon bike frames sourced in Asia, you are being made a fool. The Trek/Specialized/whatever product coming out of Asia is not that special. I know I've offended legions of believers, but the fact the major brands get away with it has inspired dozens of equally non-special copycats.

The overwhelming majority of Asian carbon product is excellent quality, just very low cost.

Not that it really matters what I think, but I'm with DW on this one, although I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that consumer is being made a fool for buying Cervelo, Look, Colanago, or whatever. There are reasons to continue buying high end bikes even though the apparent gross margin between manufacture cost and final product cost seems outrageous. It could be the intangibles of engineering, innovation, history, or even the fact that some of these brands do a lot to support bike racing in general that could motivate someone to support a marquee brand. But then these are just reasons and so are always going to be debatable.

The question of value is a hot topic. Personally, I'm more convinced by the arguments of DW and others, but a lot of awesome people that I know ride high end bikes, and what of it? They have there reasons so ride and let ride. It's more fun that way.

DM, I'd guess that there's as many d-bags on low-end/custom/indie/fixie/singlespeed/bamboo/ti/steel/alu/fully/ht/xc/trail/dh/townie rigs as there are on high end bikes. It takes all kinds.

Books and covers?

Boeing wasn't being hypocritical when he suggested that you're mean spirited in your posts. He was being factual. Hate is a poor fuel because it takes more energy to sustain hate than you get out of it at the other end. Although you're sure seem to be getting some good mileage!

 

[oldborn]

Let see some ditributor or dealer prices
Battaglin 2011
http://www.scribd.com/doc/63886078/Battaglin-Distributor-Pricelist-2011

Cervelo 2010
http://www.scribd.com/doc/63886450/2010-preisliste-deutschland-2009-10-06-cervelo

De Rosa 2011
http://www.scribd.com/doc/63886505/blu-inglese-2011

Viner 2011
http://www.scribd.com/doc/63886644/Bikes-2011

 

[oldborn]

Merckx 2010
http://pdfcast.org/pdf/merckx
Moser 2011
http://pdfcast.org/pdf/bikes
Carrera 2011
http://www.scribd.com/doc/63886965/Carrera-Bikes-Dealer-2011
Trigon 2010
http://pdfcast.org/pdf/s-13

It is impossible to produce 30$ or 40$ top end worth bike as McQuaid said, so what this Dude wants? Then move damn plants to Europe or US.
I am just saying. We are paying too much that s for sure.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Boeing wasn't being hypocritical when he suggested that you're mean spirited in your posts. He was being factual. Hate is a poor fuel because it takes more energy to sustain hate than you get out of it at the other end. Although you're sure seem to be getting some good mileage!

It worked for Lance Armstrong. It will work for me.

 

[oldborn]

Yeah DM, i find you very informative and inovative at least poster, but relax Dude

 

[DirtyWorks]

..I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that consumer is being made a fool for buying Cervelo, Look, Colanago, or whatever.

Some of those bike brands you attribute to me have models that are actually made in the EU/U.S. In other cases, they are going to great effort to spec the design in great detail. In those cases, the higher prices are justified. Just to be perfectly clear, Ibis cycles is probably a good barometer of an expensive bike that has high costs behind it. They do their own development with the manufacturing done in China. They charge a fair price for an entirely original product produced to impeccable standards in China. This is different than where most of the industry revenue comes from.

Again, I'm aware I've offended legions of Trek/Jamis/Specialized believers, but they can just label me bitter or crazy and go back to pretending.

As for the bikebiz.com link, that's just Pat shooting his mouth off for reasons unknown. Very high quality bike product comes out of China all the time. It all meets/exceeds Western product safety standards too. It just has someone's stickers on it.

 

[bc_hills]

Some of those bike brands you attribute to me have models that are actually made in the EU/U.S. In other cases, they are going to great effort to spec the design in great detail. In those cases, the higher prices are justified. Just to be perfectly clear, Ibis cycles is probably a good barometer of an expensive bike that has high costs behind it. They do their own development with the manufacturing done in China. They charge a fair price for an entirely original product produced to impeccable standards in China. This is different than where most of the industry revenue comes from.

Again, I'm aware I've offended legions of Trek/Jamis/Specialized believers, but they can just label me bitter or crazy and go back to pretending.

As for the bikebiz.com link, that's just Pat shooting his mouth off for reasons unknown. Very high quality bike product comes out of China all the time. It all meets/exceeds Western product safety standards too. It just has someone's stickers on it.

Ah, sorry about that. Didn't mean to misrepresent your position. I didn't realize you were being specific in limiting you list. I now get what you're saying.

 

[Boeing]

For the record DM you are the most readable poster is some time. I see your play at hypocrisy in that I am rather blunt at times.

allow me to suggest that you would be even more readable and admirable with out the malicious intent and the self aggrandizement.

Perhaps hypocrisy was a poor word choice for you though.

google it then reread your group ride post along with the article itself. then compare and contrast with your approach to the board

carry on my friend. friend request on the way


but know that I live by a very simple rule my granddaddy shared with me
"Son if you have to tell us you are drunk all the damn time, you ain't"

and a patron of the CN forum once wrote "don't confuse your fitness with skill"

words to live by or post by if you may

and as for the topic at hand. DO you actually believe there is a grand conspiracy by industry insiders and road bike manufacturers to base all their R&D on the concept that Hummer Drivers and Yuppies alike will buy their product? ( uuuueeerrrr and yes I know you are fitter than all of them. yup)

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

DO you actually believe there is a grand conspiracy by industry insiders and road bike manufacturers to base all their R&D on the concept that Hummer Drivers and Yuppies alike will buy their product?

It does not require a conspiracy. The leaders of the major bike companies along with the Bilderbergers and the Stonecutters do not have to hold an annual meeting in the basement of Andy Rihs's Swiss mansion to plan how they will chisel extra euros from the pockets of image obsessed yuppies. They all know that 90 to 99 percent--and I suspect it is a lot closer to 99 than 90--of top end cycling equipment is bought by recreational riders who do not race, never did and never will. That is the largest segment of the high end market, at least it is in America.

My central point in this thread is that the high end bike market is a luxury goods market. The high price is a large part of what makes the products desirable. Take Rolex for example. If Rolex began selling Submariner watches for a thousand bucks, what would the result be? For one, a lot of people who cannot afford the current price would buy one. Two, the people who can afford one would no longer look at the brand in the same way. Ultimately, Rolex would lose some of its cachet. To some degree this has already happened because fakes are so common.

Apple, on the other hand, makes premium goods. Although the price may make its products somewhat more desirable, the products sell to a large degree on actual merit relative to competing products, whether those merits are software superiority, a larger app "ecosystem", or just plain better looks. Cut the prices of Apple's products in half and it would not affect the desirability of its products as much as cutting the price of Rolex's products.

I sum it up as d-bags buying stuff to impress other d-bags because it is pithy and it gets a rise out of people who think their ox is being gored, but what explanation have other people given for the price difference? The best proffered so far is the idea that there is more expensive design put into road frames, an explanation that I find dubious. Road frames do not have to be engineered to withstand the rigors that an MTB frame is subject to. No matter how much a frame is marketed as a lightweight XC frame, there will always be a-holes who do four foot drops and act surprised when their frame breaks. MTB frames have to be engineered to withstand a wide range of abuse.

 

[DirtyWorks]

DO you actually believe there is a grand conspiracy by industry insiders and road bike manufacturers to base all their R&D on the concept that Hummer Drivers and Yuppies alike will buy their product? ( uuuueeerrrr and yes I know you are fitter than all of them. yup)

It's not a grand conspiracy. At the top of the bike business, the major brands have the revenue to spread the R&D B.S. despite the fact Giant is likely building most of it.

That "grand conspiracy" is mentioned to marginalize the uncomfortable truth about the high end bike industry and diminish the fact many have paid way too much for OEM equipment. But that's part of the game, right? We rank riders as much by their gear as their place in the training ride. A little more honesty all the way around would grow the sport.

They all know that 90 to 99 percent--and I suspect it is a lot closer to 99 than 90--of top end cycling equipment is bought by recreational riders who do not race, never did and never will. That is the largest segment of the high end market, at least it is in America.

The consumer is being screwed, but so what? The industry knows the money is out there to put many more high-end bikes on the back of countless luxury SUV's once or twice a year. So, why not Ritte van Flanderen? (or whatever flipper looks good to you)

 

[mad black]

Care to back this claim up? Or does making a claim in the form of a suggestion free you from the mundanities of argumentation and evidence?

I'm gonna go ahead and suggest that money spent on a Look frame is money well spent, if you're into that kind of high end road bike thing.

Do you hate the French?

Well, I'm German for a start... Also I'm a bike mechanic by trade. I have worked with Looks for a considerable amount of time. Value for money is simply non existent when almost every single 595 that was raced properly for more than a season (and sometimes less) had the BB shell insert come loose. Thankfully the most prevelant use for 595's is the Sunday ride to the coffee shop...

 

[Master50]

At this past weekends Whistler Gran Fondo I did not see any exotic bikes under the 120 racers. In the Fondo however there were a lot of Euro bikes and wheels that cost more than many bikes. Still the most common bikes are Treks and Specialized.

I'd love to see an actual survey of what we ride. It is clearly the middle class over 30 crowd that owns the most expensive hardware whether road or MTB. By performance I think the most exotic bikes are in the top 1/2 of the finish times too which might at least indicate the bikes are getting ridden?

 

[Boeing]

Let me follow the logic

Bike Design is dictated by the need to hoodwink the public into buying overpriced product?

well atleast with statements like this one proves who is and isn't a real dbag. Rather than a blanket label of a group based on personal bias and generalization.

DM and DW can't seem to take themselves and their personal baggage out of any argument. perhaps we know their tax bracket by default....


thank you I get your take on people

but the question is about process

 

[DirtyWorks]

Bike Design is dictated by the need to hoodwink the public into buying overpriced product?

That's a cynical view. The consumer friendly term is Marketing.

You are telling me the Giants being sold by Trek and Specialized are worth much more with their stickers than a Giant sticker? Trek's stickers make it lighter/stronger somehow?

Buy what you want. Really. Just understand that the OEM stuff isn't that special. It's very good quality. From inside the industry, it's just not worth what you paid.

 

[uphillstruggle]

I doubt that people with money buying nice bikes does much for your average joe cyclist. If anything the price of bikes and components have shot up well above inflation since I have been riding. An example being the entry level bike I bought 4 years ago for £1150 now sells at £1650; sure the new ultegra may be of better quality but it can't put an extra £500 on to every unit they sell. Much more likely is that it is extra demand in the market that has put the price up this much.

Frankly I am not convinced that big name frames are any better than cheaper alternatives. Another anecdotal tale: I recently bought a cheap carbon bike from Ribble (small English company who buy generic frames and re paints them) and I have ridden my friends new specialized sl3 both have roughly the same gear on them and mine is lighter and just as responsive which begs the question what do you get for the extra money with the specialized. Personally, when I buy a new bike next time round I will buy a cheaper frame and spend the money saved on gruppo and wheels. Much better way to improve performance and ride quality.

I have nothing against people who have top end bikes per se (If I had a spare 6 grand lying around I would properly buy one) but what I can't stand is the idiots who turn up at races and shout 'hey watch out this is a 7 grand bike' when someone cuts them up. Don't race on anything you wouldn't want to break. Race bikes are workhorses not show ponies.

 

[fabramowski]

Like the old saying goes... "There's a sucker born every day"