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Is it good or bad for professional cycling to expose doping?

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Except Stephens you left out the ethics of it. It's not just a matter of "healthy" doping, it's also a matter of doing the right thing.

As to having a choice, I will paraphrase what Alex Zulle said after admitting to doping during the Festina affair, he said that his choice was either to do EPO like everyone else, and make good money participating in the sport he loves. Or he could go back to painting houses for low pay. What I'm saying is that's a real sad commentary on the sport when that's what Alex's choices were. :(
 
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Race Radio said:
There are plenty more riders who would disagree with you. Fignon, Anquetil, Johannes Draaijer, Tom Simpson.....The list goes on but I am sure you have never heard of them.

You'll just have to trust that my opinion is not born from a lack of familiarity with the history of cycling and doping victims. I just have a different opinion, that is all. I trust it won't cause you any pain and so you needn't get so worked up about it.

From all I know of Anquetil, he seemed to have no regrets! He also is on the record with plenty of statements that tell us he would not be supportive of the current way the testing regulations are enforced these days, much less the even less dignified methods advocated by some of you here.

Fignon and Anquetil being on the list is an example of how simple the issue is for you. They used banned substances, they got cancer, and so it must be related and therefore the banned substance list is accurately consists of dangerous substances that we shouldn't allow riders to use. Well, both of them had successful careers and cancer didn't get them until later than it got my own parents who lived supposedly healthy lives void of any vices. Life is not so simple and I don't think you help your argument by blaming doping for the cancers of Fignon and Anquetil. (even if Fignon opens that door with his own comments wondering if there was a connection).
 
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Race Radio said:
Coached by Chris Charmichael they were doped with Cortisone.

This case is certainly troubling and naturally I am not in support of coaches "treating" riders against their will or without the riders being very well educated on what the risks are.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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stephens said:
You'll just have to trust that my opinion is not born from a lack of familiarity with the history of cycling and doping victims. I just have a different opinion, that is all. I trust it won't cause you any pain and so you needn't get so worked up about it.

From all I know of Anquetil, he seemed to have no regrets! He also is on the record with plenty of statements that tell us he would not be supportive of the current way the testing regulations are enforced these days, much less the even less dignified methods advocated by some of you here.

Fignon and Anquetil being on the list is an example of how simple the issue is for you. They used banned substances, they got cancer, and so it must be related and therefore the banned substance list is accurately consists of dangerous substances that we shouldn't allow riders to use. Well, both of them had successful careers and cancer didn't get them until later than it got my own parents who lived supposedly healthy lives void of any vices. Life is not so simple and I don't think you help your argument by blaming doping for the cancers of Fignon and Anquetil. (even if Fignon opens that door with his own comments wondering if there was a connection).

You may want to read what I wrote.

I wrote that they would disagree with you. Both Fignon and Anquetil blame their health issues later in life on their doping and would disagree with your position. As would many retired Pro's. While you may see this as "Simple" there is some validity in their ideas as immunosuppressants like cortisone have been shown to increase cancer risk. While you may be ok with the fact that they did not get cancer until "Later in life" they are not.

The fact is from an early age riders are pressured to dope. Some, like Eugenio Bani, are given daily unexplained injections. Others, Like Christophe Bassons are pressured to dope until they are forced to leave the sport. You would be hard pressed to find a European Pro from the 90's/2000's that did not regret what they did or were concerned by the potential heath issued that may result.
 
pedaling squares said:
Honesty always wins the day. Exposing the sport's flaws may cause cycling to take a brief hit in the court of public opinion, but I think more people and sponsors would be attracted to the sport if they believed they could trust in it.

A few more years you'll realize Peace wins over Honesty by a tire width.
 
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Race Radio said:
You should ask Lance's U23 National team teammates if they think doping is bad for you.

Coached by Chris Charmichael they were doped with Cortisone. It should be no surprise that 5 of the riders came down with very similar illnesses that are all enhanced by immunosuprsent drugs like Cortisone. Ernie Lachuga even developed the same form of cancer as Lance. USA cycling lost a court case and had to pay $500,000 to the riders. Chris Charmichael settled out of court for $250,000.

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RR, is the story of the cases of Cancer within the u23 team well known? Did anyone ever do an article on it? I have have never heard this. Just general thoughts from people that LA migtht have gotten cancer from all the HGH etc... any links?
 
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oldschoolnik said:
RR, is the story of the cases of Cancer within the u23 team well known? Did anyone ever do an article on it? I have have never heard this. Just general thoughts from people that LA migtht have gotten cancer from all the HGH etc... any links?

Here is an interview with Strock
http://velonews.competitor.com/2000/12/news/strock-speaks_79

Here is a link to the court case, which was eventually settled.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2006/04/news/six-years-later-strock-case-comes-to-court_9763


I would think that HGH, as a cellular multiplier, would be more the cause of the rapid spread of Armstrong's cancer then the initial cause. There is a link between Cortisone and triggering the human parvovirus virus that normally remains dormant. There is a direct link between this virus and what Erik and Greg developed. It also has an 85-percent correlation with testicular cancer, which is what Ernie and Lance had.
 
oldschoolnik said:
Race Radio said:
You should ask Lance's U23 National team teammates if they think doping is bad for you.

Coached by Chris Charmichael they were doped with Cortisone. It should be no surprise that 5 of the riders came down with very similar illnesses that are all enhanced by immunosuprsent drugs like Cortisone. Ernie Lachuga even developed the same form of cancer as Lance. USA cycling lost a court case and had to pay $500,000 to the riders. Chris Charmichael settled out of court for $250,000.

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RR, is the story of the cases of Cancer within the u23 team well known? Did anyone ever do an article on it? I have have never heard this. Just general thoughts from people that LA migtht have gotten cancer from all the HGH etc... any links?

Also covered extensively in LA Confidential and From Lance to Landis by David Walsh. In 2001, David Walsh interviewed Lance and mentioned CC and Greg Stock. Lance even admitted that CC offering an undisclosed fee not to go to trial, didn't look good for CC. CC told Stock that he was giving him 'extract of cortisone', which of course does not exist.
 
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Your points on Bani and Bassons are well taken. Perhaps the tide will turn and more current/potential pros will decide to avoid "doping" and then exert the pressure that will drive it from the peloton. I would celebrate this, as self-determination of the riders is the most important thing, in my book. After all, I have no preference for "methods" or what the riders do or don't put into their bodies (after all, it's not my body so it's fundamentally none of my business). I only care that the rules of the sport and the way it evolves be determined by the participants and not only by those owners/organizers/sponsors/etc. that seek to profit from their efforts.
 

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Alpe d'Huez said:
As to having a choice, I will paraphrase what Alex Zulle said after admitting to doping during the Festina affair, he said that his choice was either to do EPO like everyone else, and make good money participating in the sport he loves. Or he could go back to painting houses for low pay. What I'm saying is that's a real sad commentary on the sport when that's what Alex's choices were. :(

Zulle was faced with a tough choice for sure. But just think about the choice that the young impressionable U23 junior Lance had....do dope like everyone else, and make really really really good money participating in the sport he loves. Or he could go back his landscaping gig in the trailer park!

Yes, I agree that it is a sad commentary on the sport sigh.

But the thing that amazes me is even though Lance was almost KILLED by the evil doping system he was exposed to as a kid racer - he has forgiven those who were actually responsible for his suffering. He still remains friends with them! LiveStrong indeed:)
 
stephens said:
Your points on Bani and Bassons are well taken. Perhaps the tide will turn and more current/potential pros will decide to avoid "doping" and then exert the pressure that will drive it from the peloton. I would celebrate this, as self-determination of the riders is the most important thing, in my book. After all, I have no preference for "methods" or what the riders do or don't put into their bodies (after all, it's not my body so it's fundamentally none of my business). I only care that the rules of the sport and the way it evolves be determined by the participants and not only by those owners/organizers/sponsors/etc. that seek to profit from their efforts.

East German doping system. Teenagers doped and developing cancer in later life, and even worse, having babies with deformities, as a result of doping. Self regulation doesn't work.
 
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You can't be serious. The kids are one thing, but the pros? If there is a cyclist in the pro peloton who doesn't know the risks of epo or blood doping, I'd be shocked. Heck, people here who aren't even doing it and don't have experts at their beck-and-call claim to know everything about it.
 
stephens said:
You can't be serious. The kids are one thing, but the pros? If there is a cyclist in the pro peloton who doesn't know the risks of epo or blood doping, I'd be shocked. Heck, people here who aren't even doing it and don't have experts at their beck-and-call claim to know everything about it.
As I recall Pantani was like a little kid. He had his problems. We can make the argument that this guy didn’t exactly what he was doing. If all the riders knew what they were doing I am sure a lot of them wouldn't do it. It is just like me driving under the influence when I was younger. I could have been killed doing it. I was immature and never thought about death. Now I know better. I have family, kids, a job and more experience.
Here is a link to what Alpe d'Huez was talking about:

http://www.bikepure.org/casestudies.html
 
stephens said:
You can't be serious. The kids are one thing, but the pros? If there is a cyclist in the pro peloton who doesn't know the risks of epo or blood doping, I'd be shocked. Heck, people here who aren't even doing it and don't have experts at their beck-and-call claim to know everything about it.

I'm serious. Have you ever heard the testimony of former pro cyclists who dope? There are plenty of them who didn't have a clue what was being put in their bodies by the team docs. There's a case right now where a cyclist is claiming this, and I've been hearing it for decades. And that's just guys who don't even know what's being put in their bodies. Read Manzano, Voet, read Dog in a Hat, talk to some racers coming back from Belgium or other European circuits, or any number of other sources.

You can't seriously think that most cyclists have an medically informed ability to determine what will and won't cause long-term damage. Half the stuff they're taking is being taken in combinations which almost no one would understand the ramifications, not to mention experimental drugs and drugs for which long-term use nothing is known. The riders are being "informed" by doctors employed by the teams whose main goal is to increase performance. The system ensures the riders are not getting unbiased medical advice.

You can't be serious if you think these guys know what these drugs are going to do to them, or you just have some reading and deeper thinking to do.
 
As I noted before, Werner Franke, renowned microbiologist and anti-doping crusader pleaded with Jan Ullrich, who he said had a child-like mind, and could barely have known what he was being "poisoned" with, to finger those who doped him. He even confronted Jan to his face before the jackals stopped him. Franke is I believe still in a suit against Jan for sporting fraud, trying to get him to talk.

Digger said:
East German doping system. Teenagers doped and developing cancer in later life, and even worse, having babies with deformities, as a result of doping. Self regulation doesn't work.

Strongly recommend the book Faust's Gold, about DDR's doping machine. Werner Franke is one of the doctors that broke the codes and unraveled it all so to speak, and is featured in the book

This does not excuse the athletes. But I also recommend you read Willy Voet's book, he tells a very eye-opening story about riders reactions and responses to doping, and their knowledge of it, or lack there of.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
As I noted before, Werner Franke, renowned microbiologist and anti-doping crusader pleaded with Jan Ullrich, who he said had a child-like mind, and could barely have known what he was being "poisoned" with, to finger those who doped him. He even confronted Jan to his face before the jackals stopped him. Franke is I believe still in a suit against Jan for sporting fraud, trying to get him to talk.



Strongly recommend the book Faust's Gold, about DDR's doping machine. Werner Franke is one of the doctors that broke the codes and unraveled it all so to speak, and is featured in the book
This does not excuse the athletes. But I also recommend you read Willy Voet's book, he tells a very eye-opening story about riders reactions and responses to doping, and their knowledge of it, or lack there of.

Yeah read them both. Faust's Gold is pretty shocking.
 
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red_flanders said:
You can't be serious if you think these guys know what these drugs are going to do to them, or you just have some reading and deeper thinking to do.

I figure *today's* pro should be assumed to know at least as much about it as a bunch of guys posting on a cycling website. They know how to use google, too. Of course there are always unknowns, and always the possibility that some/many/all just don't care. We all die of something.
 
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Race Radio said:
Interesting justification. What if you were not able to do your job because you were unwilling to break the law?

Tough question. Then iguess that's still your choice. Nobody is forcing you to break the law, becoz at the end of the day, you have to be willing to take drugs to do it.

I guess I was trying to stay that you can take the ethical/integrity/dignity choice of not breaking the law and not harming your body, OR the non-ethical/--/-- choice of breaking it and harming your body. Either way, there is always a choice between two options and nobody is 'forced' to take PEDs.

I do believe, that currently in the Pro Tour that there are clean cyclists who refuse to take PEDs even if management pressures them which signals to me at least that some people do not feel forced/pressured/they have no choice, and can personally overcome the pressure to dope. But maybe i'm wrong.

I think with my original post I drifted away from the original question about whether or not we should expose doping, and I still think we should. However, as many have said throughout the forums, the doctors should be exposed. The companies who sell medical EPO should be exposed because the provision of these drugs to athletes is the illegal and unethical IMO. Target the drug dealer, not the drug taker. The drug taker has a choice, but don't let them choose. The drug dealer is the scum, take them down, expose them, name them, shame them and then the drug taker will not be in a position where they are pressured to choose
 
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Has anybody read the quote by Joe Parkin (who wrote Dog in a Hat) and he said in his own cynical mind that the peloton is 75-90% clean? The term 'WTF' went through my mind?. How would that make him cynical if believes the number is that high?
 
going back to the original question: is it bad to expose doping?

The problem i see in the way cycling has dealt with fighting doping in the past decade is that it's more like fighting the symptons and not the cause. Without a change in strategy (and more likely in culture) this will be going on for 20 years without a change. And i don't think the public will accept the sport if the next decade is as explosive as the last.

Just look at baseball. I think it's good that these guys get caught but if 200 guys use doping it is a widespread problem with a system in place to suppport these guys. Axing 20 of them doesn't stop the system and only hurts the commercial value of the sport.
 
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To answer the question...

I think it's a good thing cycling does to expose dopers. I wish other disciplines would follow suite. I hate that cyclists and skiers are the vast majority getting nailed. Spread the gd wealth already!
 

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ImmaculateKadence said:
what are your thoughts on exposing the use of PEDs? Is it good for the sport?

People have been exposing the use of PEDs ever since the TdF began (the TdF is really the origin of CycleDoping is it not?).

Since "exposing the Dopers" is part and parcel of the rich History of Pro Cycling, my vote = it is a good for the sport.

However, it is important that the "anti-doping crusaders" play fair. The rules the anti-dopers need to follow are just as important as the rules the riders need to follow. Lab bribes, illegal searches, leaked results, revealing rider identities, etc are as bad as the doping.
 
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Roninho said:
going back to the original question: is it bad to expose doping?

No it is not. Doping in the pro ranks means doping in the amateur ranks to secure pro contracts. Ask the guy who was given "extract of cortisone" as a minor what he thinks of doping in cycling.
 

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