Is it good or bad for professional cycling to expose doping?

[Publicus]

Manzano never fingered Contador.

The GC found Contadors name and phone number in Fuente's wallet. They also found a note in Fuentes files that Contador program should be "Nothing or like J.J."

This is the first I've ever heard of this. Is there more color around this?

 

[Escarabajo]

Here is the confusion: First we need to discuss why you believe that all these guys (Manzano, Kohl, and Jacksche) are lying and then address you initial question.

Why do you believe they are lying? Tell us which sections of their confessions are not true? Let’s discuss this first please.

Thanks.

What is amusing by the Manzano's confessions is the level of detail that he described. At the time the Tour de France organization was so shocked by it that they decided to cancel Kelme's invitation and then said that even if 50% of what Manzano said was true it was too much.

Manzano level of detail can not be made up by an un-educated person. Maybe he started to write down everything that he was taking down in his system just in case something bad happened. Like indeed happened in that first mountain stage of the 2003 Tour de France. It is basically impossible for a bicycle rider without some education to come up with such knowledge. Maybe somebody wants to challenge me on this and prove me wrong, but that's how I see it. And this is what raised a red flag in my mind. He was the first person to really open my eyes. Even after Festina I was in the belief that the sport was cleaning up. After Manzano's confessions I have always been skeptical about clean cycling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesús_Manzano

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/mar04/mar24news2

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/riders/2004/interviews/?id=jesus_manzano04

 

[Digger]

This is the first I've ever heard of this. Is there more color around this?

In many places....this is literally the first place I saw it.

http://www.cheatorbeat.com/alberto_contador/cycling/890

 

[sida-mot]

This came up in the Radio Shack thread. I thought it would make for an interesting discussion but didn't want the Radio Shack thred to digress further.

With Kimmage's Rough Ride exposing widespread PED use in the peloton and more recently with Bernhard Kohl's BS claim that it's impossible to win without doping, or even Greg Lemond's seemingly constant accusations, what are your thoughts on exposing the use of PEDs? Is it good for the sport?

The thing is that there is no real alternative. They can't sweep it under the carpet. That is pretty much what they are trying to do now and it still gets out. Talk to any one about cycling and their first comment is very likely to be that all cyclists are dopers. So how could that get any worse?

If all was exposed and all cheaters was caught the sport would probably lose many profiles, a lot of sponsors and almost all casual fans. They would however get many hard core fans back. How I would love to watch a race and be convinced it was a clean peloton, that the fight was fair. Nowadays I rarely get worked up over who wins and who doesn't since there are a huge probability that some of the moves would not have been made without PEDs...

 

[Tangled Tango]

I agree, and as a side note, Joe Perkins said in his book that he felt from reading Kimmage's book that Kimmage thought he would win the Tour if everyone was clean. However, Paul explicitly says that even if it was a level playing field, he would never ever win a Grand Tour. Paul, if anything is grateful, because he considers himself lucky. One of his friends committed suicide for example, and ultimately cycling afforded him the opportunity to get into journalism. David Walsh said to Paul when starting out, to never run from the truth. Maybe the OP should keep that line in their thoughts.

I think one common thread that links Paul Kimmage, David Walsh and perhaps also Jeremy Whittle is they were raised by hard working parents who instilled in their children the values of truth, honesty and hard work. This may give some insight into the courage they have shown in their writing about such an unwelcome subject. The more people who have to courage to open their mouths the fewer dopers we´ll have.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Sorry, I completely overlooked Manzano and responded that Kohl's claim is too absolute.

As for Manzano, many of those linked to Operación Puerto were eventually cleared (Contador was one), so he wasn't entirely correct.

I would say somewhere between squirmed out and skipped over would be a better term for what happened to almost everyone who was involved in Puerto.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Bernhard Kohl's BS claim that it's impossible to win without doping

Sorry, but Kohl and Manzano have proven people like you wrong time after time after time.

But by all means, keep attacking them. They'll prove you wrong again and again.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

My feeling is dopers need to be tossed from the sport no matter what their name is.

Having said that, I too look at Voight and appreciate how hard he works and how strong he is and would be very disappointed to learn that he's just another cheater.

Dammit.

This is Voight.

This is Voigt.

 

[Publicus]

In many places....this is literally the first place I saw it.

http://www.cheatorbeat.com/alberto_contador/cycling/890

Thanks. Has Colom ever been associated with Fuentes?

 

[ludwig]

I guess it comes down to perspective. From the perspective of society, which ought to be fairly close to the perspective of fans...yes it's important to expose doping because we have judged it to be wrong, illegal, etc.

I suppose that from the perspective of professional cyclists and people in professional cycling, who cannot avoid doping, all the attention doping gets is bad news.

One of the frustrating things about being a cycling fan is all the mixed messages re. doping...whether professional cyclists want the sport reformed or whether they are happy with omerta or is it somewhere in between. Because of omerta, fans have little notion of what the true attitude is in the peloton, and thus have little notion of how to best support the athletes.

It should seem pretty clear from reading this and other forums that most cycling fans want a clean sport, clean heroes, etc., even if the same fans understand this is pure mythos. Cycling has always walked a fine line between competition and spectacle, between myth and reality. Cycling needs to present itself as a clean sport to maintain its mythos, but the reality is it is the ultimate endurance sport--the ultimate venue for dope.

It's hard to imagine cycling without lies, but the aesthetic of the sport is all about purity attained through suffering. We cannot imagine that our suffering heroes are performers as much as they are sportsmen. We demand that our sporting heroes be gods but also demand a strict sporting ethic....no wonder there is so much contradiction and mixed messages.

The public should embrace whistle blowers like Manzano and Kohl as heroes for demonstrating honesty and integrity, but we shouldn't be surprised if the professional cycling community vilifies them. The whistle blowers upset the illusion and spoil the show.

 

[Anonymous]

Dammit.

This is Voight.

This is Voigt.

Uggh... 1,000 apologies. I have never been even decent at spelling (or proof reading my own writing for that matter. At least I didn't spell peleton, peloton.).

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Uggh... 1,000 apologies. I have never been even decent at spelling (or proof reading my own writing for that matter. At least I didn't spell peleton, peloton.).

Sorry, I should have put a smiley face. I was just kidding! Don't worry about spelling, mate. It's all good.

 

[carl spackler]

I'm not a professional cyclist, but as an amateur, or if I could imagine what it might be like for an up and coming young rider inside the sport, I would think it would be encouraging to have at least the hope that I could succeed as a clean rider. As it stands now, is that the case? If it is, I would think that exposure of PEDs has helped facilitate that.

Was there any hope for a rider coming up in the mid 90s that he could be successful without a program? Probably less hope that there is today I would think.

Who benefits from silence about doping? the riders that take drugs? certainly not. Fans? no. It is the sponsors, ASO and alike. Riders who assert that Simeoni, Manzano...etc etc.. are trying to destroy cycling are complicit with those that profit from the false perception that a race is fair, when in fact it is not.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

Here is the confusion: First we need to discuss why you believe that all these guys (Manzano, Kohl, and Jacksche) are lying and then address you initial question.

Why do you believe they are lying? Tell us which sections of their confessions are not true? Let’s discuss this first please.

Thanks.

Where did you get this notion that I think they're lying? I have a problem with why they feel it necessary to expose it the way the do.

I did say Bernhard Kohl's statement is BS because it's too absolute and implies the winner of every race must be doping:

Premise: Impossible to win without doping
Premise: Cadel Evans wins Worlds
Conclusion: Cadel Evans must be doping

You see the flaw in his logic. If he had said it's difficult to win without doping, I would be less critical, but he said impossible; that's complete BS. Basically, he is saying Sastre, Contador, Menchov, Evans, and any other rider that has won recently is doping. Am I the only one that sees a problem with that?

As for Manzano, he exposed his entire team, leading to Operación Puerto. There were about 200 riders linked and most were cleared. I question his motives. I don't think his conscience got the best of him.

And Jakshe admitted his involvement. If he went any further, I'm unaware.

I think people are totally missing my point. I'm not disputing what they say. I'm simply saying I think it's bad for the sport, and I have a problem with why they do it.

In the past few years, doping has overshadowed the sport so much that the two have seemingly become synonymous, and I question if it's beneficial for so many riders, journalists, directors, etc to willingly air the dirty laundry the way they do. It should be handled internally while striving for a solution to the doping epidemic.

 

[skidmark]

As for Manzano, he exposed his entire team, leading to Operación Puerto. There were about 200 riders linked and most were cleared. I question his motives. I don't think his conscience got the best of him.

I think people are totally missing my point. I'm not disputing what they say. I'm simply saying I think it's bad for the sport, and I have a problem with why they do it.

I'm curious what you think his motives might be, if not to clear his conscience. He certainly hasn't reaped any benefits of his admission to my knowledge, and the peloton does not seem like a very friendly place for people who make those kind of admissions.

Apart from that, I agree with your criticism of Kohl's sweeping statements, and agree that it's 'bad' for the sport that doping cases get uncovered, but I think it's worse for the sport to have it keep being a rampant issue that involves the majority of riders.

Also, I just want to say that it's fantastic to see an actual discussion on this forum; that has been sorely lacking in recent weeks and months.

 

[Escarabajo]

Where did you get this notion that I think they're lying? I have a problem with why they feel it necessary to expose it the way the do.

I did say Bernhard Kohl's statement is BS because it's too absolute and implies the winner of every race must be doping:

Premise: Impossible to win without doping
Premise: Cadel Evans wins Worlds
Conclusion: Cadel Evans must be doping

You see the flaw in his logic. If he had said it's difficult to win without doping, I would be less critical, but he said impossible; that's complete BS. Basically, he is saying Sastre, Contador, Menchov, Evans, and any other rider that has won recently is doping. Am I the only one that sees a problem with that?

As for Manzano, he exposed his entire team, leading to Operación Puerto. There were about 200 riders linked and most were cleared. I question his motives. I don't think his conscience got the best of him.

And Jakshe admitted his involvement. If he went any further, I'm unaware.

I think people are totally missing my point. I'm not disputing what they say. I'm simply saying I think it's bad for the sport, and I have a problem with why they do it.

In the past few years, doping has overshadowed the sport so much that the two have seemingly become synonymous, and I question if it's beneficial for so many riders, journalists, directors, etc to willingly air the dirty laundry the way they do. It should be handled internally while striving for a solution to the doping epidemic.

As far as Kohl opinions are concerned, I could care less. But what he said had so much substance to the new technology of doping. The way blood doping is done during the Tour and the ways to evade controls. All he said made a lot of sense. I don't thing he had any knowledge of this unless he was doing it with medical assistance, as was later confirmed.

I just can not see what the benefits of confessing other than to feel morally better about themselves. Besides they will never be accepted again in the pro-peloton and therefore will loose more money from confessing than doing what Basso and others are doing. So I don’t understand what you are saying about the benefits of confessing?

Last, I don't think the riders from Puerto were cleared. Especially the Spanish riders. They just didn't have a law in place to put punish them. Besides from those 200 athletes there were a lot that were footballers and that could have helped the cause of the cyclists, since Soccer is a bigger and more dangerous "Mob" if you know what I mean.

 

[Ferminal]

Where did you get this notion that I think they're lying? I have a problem with why they feel it necessary to expose it the way the do.

I did say Bernhard Kohl's statement is BS because it's too absolute and implies the winner of every race must be doping:

Premise: Impossible to win without doping
Premise: Cadel Evans wins Worlds
Conclusion: Cadel Evans must be doping

You see the flaw in his logic. If he had said it's difficult to win without doping, I would be less critical, but he said impossible; that's complete BS. Basically, he is saying Sastre, Contador, Menchov, Evans, and any other rider that has won recently is doping. Am I the only one that sees a problem with that?

As for Manzano, he exposed his entire team, leading to Operación Puerto. There were about 200 riders linked and most were cleared. I question his motives. I don't think his conscience got the best of him.

And Jakshe admitted his involvement. If he went any further, I'm unaware.

I think people are totally missing my point. I'm not disputing what they say. I'm simply saying I think it's bad for the sport, and I have a problem with why they do it.

In the past few years, doping has overshadowed the sport so much that the two have seemingly become synonymous, and I question if it's beneficial for so many riders, journalists, directors, etc to willingly air the dirty laundry the way they do. It should be handled internally while striving for a solution to the doping epidemic.

I agree it is too absolute. To say that "every rider who wins anything" is the same as "every rider in the top 200". As we know there are many different levels of a "program". In comparison to the systematic teams, some lesser winners might seem clean but just be on a lightweight program. Do we throw them all in the same bunch or do we judge them based on the extent of their doping? The injustice here is that the big programs are less likely to return a positive.

I don't know what the Kohl dislike is for. Sure he's sour grapes because he got caught but his specific details are most likely true and he seems quite genuine. I'd rather more Kohl's than Cobras.

 

[ludwig]

For the record I would challenge anyone to come up with a quote from Kohl stating that every rider who wins a race must be doping. He did give an educated opinion about doping in the peloton and the necessity of doping in order to finish high up. These opinions are not extraordinary; they are backed up by the facts on the ground and the overall context of the sport.

While Kohl gave us much-needed facts, perhaps even more revealing was the way other figures in cycling reacted to his confession.

Anyway he's booted from the sport and not coming back so it's hard to understand why he continues to be villified....it's a real "shoot the messenger" mentality out there. ImmaculateKadence, perhaps you can take solace in that the omerta obviously agrees with you...they can't have someone like Kohl spilling the beans and accordingly Kohl and Jaksche and Manzano are all permanently banned for violating the sacred omerta.

 

[Vanspringel]

“He is a good rider,” Greenwood said. “The expectations were high for his comeback, and I think he met them. He is a very classy guy, very professional. He continued to train the entire time he was suspended, and did very well when he came back. Ivan is well respected by his fellow riders.”

Greenwood added two reasons why the team were not interested in signing Basso. First of all, “where would he fit into the team?” With Andy and Fränk Schleck, Saxo Bank already has “two good contenders for the Grand Tours.”

Secondly, Basso already had a contract with Liquigas for 2010. “We are not, and never have been, a team to go after riders with another team,” Greenwood said. “We need to respect one another, and teams need to treat each other properly.”




How is doping going to be stopped when we have attitudes like this from general managers of big teams like Greenwood? Notice that his 2 reasons for not signing Basso dont include the fact of his doping escapdes. These are the blokes whop are in charge of the teams!

 

[auscyclefan94]

Bassons was called a liar. Then Manzano was called a liar. Then Jaksche was called a liar. Then Sinkewitz was called a liar. Then Kohl was called a liar.

Simply because the average fan loves to keep his/her blinders on and pretend it can't possibly be as bad as everyone who speaks out shows it to be.

Name one thing any of those five people said that's been proven false.

Yes, but to say all the top guys racing in gc or in any type of road cycling discipline is false and misrepresenting the rider(s) who do it honestly.

 

[issoisso]

Yes, but to say all the top guys racing in gc or in any type of road cycling discipline is false and misrepresenting the rider(s) who do it honestly.

You just love contesting stuff that no one said, don't you? Nobody said that

“He is a good rider,” Greenwood said. “The expectations were high for his comeback, and I think he met them. He is a very classy guy, very professional. He continued to train the entire time he was suspended, and did very well when he came back. Ivan is well respected by his fellow riders.”

Greenwood added two reasons why the team were not interested in signing Basso. First of all, “where would he fit into the team?” With Andy and Fränk Schleck, Saxo Bank already has “two good contenders for the Grand Tours.”

Secondly, Basso already had a contract with Liquigas for 2010. “We are not, and never have been, a team to go after riders with another team,” Greenwood said. “We need to respect one another, and teams need to treat each other properly.”




How is doping going to be stopped when we have attitudes like this from general managers of big teams like Greenwood? Notice that his 2 reasons for not signing Basso dont include the fact of his doping escapdes. These are the blokes whop are in charge of the teams!

Look no further than pseudo-anti-doping-advocate Jens Voigt (yes, again). When he's asked about convicted cheaters who upheld the Omerta by not naming names (such as Vino and Basso) he's all nice and apologetic saying they need to be welcomed back, they've paid for their mistaskes, everyone deserves a second chance....


Then he's asked about Sinkewitz, who did break the omerta, and suddenly he's snarling and angry, blabbing about how people like Sinkewitz are a cancer that's bringing down the sport and need to be erradicated.

 

[craig1985]

What is amusing by the Manzano's confessions is the level of detail that he described. At the time the Tour de France organization was so shocked by it that they decided to cancel Kelme's invitation and then said that even if 50% of what Manzano said was true it was too much.

Manzano level of detail can not be made up by an un-educated person. Maybe he started to write down everything that he was taking down in his system just in case something bad happened. Like indeed happened in that first mountain stage of the 2003 Tour de France. It is basically impossible for a bicycle rider without some education to come up with such knowledge. Maybe somebody wants to challenge me on this and prove me wrong, but that's how I see it. And this is what raised a red flag in my mind. He was the first person to really open my eyes. Even after Festina I was in the belief that the sport was cleaning up. After Manzano's confessions I have always been skeptical about clean cycling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesús_Manzano

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/mar04/mar24news2

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/riders/2004/interviews/?id=jesus_manzano04

If you remember, Manzano (he is only 31!) talked about how in a training camp for an edition of the Vuelta, that it included several trips to the local hospital with 7 or 8 riders. I mean come on. As for Contador, IIRC there have been a few arguements that the 'AC' was really Angel Casero.

 

[craig1985]

For the record I would challenge anyone to come up with a quote from Kohl stating that every rider who wins a race must be doping. He did give an educated opinion about doping in the peloton and the necessity of doping in order to finish high up. These opinions are not extraordinary; they are backed up by the facts on the ground and the overall context of the sport.

While Kohl gave us much-needed facts, perhaps even more revealing was the way other figures in cycling reacted to his confession.

Anyway he's booted from the sport and not coming back so it's hard to understand why he continues to be villified....it's a real "shoot the messenger" mentality out there. ImmaculateKadence, perhaps you can take solace in that the omerta obviously agrees with you...they can't have someone like Kohl spilling the beans and accordingly Kohl and Jaksche and Manzano are all permanently banned for violating the sacred omerta.

I have no idea what Kohl has said in German language media, but I certainly recall when he got busted, that he said that 'anyone of the top 10, if not all' could of been busted for doping (or similar words). In a recent interview in PCM, he said he is glad that Ricco can make a comeback, and more or less wishes him good luck. He also mentions that the rate things are going, the sport will never be clean.

 

[Tangled Tango]

For the record I would challenge anyone to come up with a quote from Kohl stating that every rider who wins a race must be doping. He did give an educated opinion about doping in the peloton and the necessity of doping in order to finish high up. These opinions are not extraordinary; they are backed up by the facts on the ground and the overall context of the sport.

While Kohl gave us much-needed facts, perhaps even more revealing was the way other figures in cycling reacted to his confession.

Anyway he's booted from the sport and not coming back so it's hard to understand why he continues to be villified....it's a real "shoot the messenger" mentality out there. ImmaculateKadence, perhaps you can take solace in that the omerta obviously agrees with you...they can't have someone like Kohl spilling the beans and accordingly Kohl and Jaksche and Manzano are all permanently banned for violating the sacred omerta.

Well said and so true. The negative reaction from both the peloton and some of cyclings organizations toward the "whistle blowers" is clear evidence of who is clean and who isn´t. Those who welcome it are clean. Those who don´t and try to keep the silence are not. It´s simple logic. The true heros are those clclist who risk their current jobs and future income by opening their mouths and speaking the truth.

 

[BroDeal]

Well said and so true. The negative reaction from both the peloton and some of cyclings organizations toward the "whistle blowers" is clear evidence of who is clean and who isn´t. Those who welcome it are clean. Those who don´t and try to keep the silence are not. It´s simple logic. The true heros are those clclist who risk their current jobs and future income by opening their mouths and speaking the truth.

Who can think of a rider who has spoken in support of people like Manzano, Kohl, or Jaksche?? I cannot think of anyone.