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Is it time to re-evaluate the effectiveness of 'old school' doping?

Jul 7, 2012
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I must admit that I have often accepted the line that we can still consider 'pre-Epo era' performances to be 'authentic', especially those from the days when stimulants were the doping method of choice, on the grounds that these 'Did nothing to alter the basic physiology of the cyclist'. Now I am not so sure.

It seems that there is actually a very poor understanding of what it is that limits human performance, and that when one slows down because of 'fatigue' there are no obvious physiological markers that can be said to cause that fatigue. Rather, the body's central nervous system, acting on physiological cues, effectively shuts down physiological systems so as to prevent the possibility of damage, conserve resources or whatever. This 'Central Governor' theory suggests that a rider who feels 'tired' is, from a purely physiological standpoint, actually capable of a much higher workload. (I am sure you are all aware of this theory).

All this suggests that performances in the 'old days', when riders regarded the use of stimulants as a normal part of their 'work', might well lack authenticity almost as much as those in the modern era when it is the rider's physiology that is being manipulated. OK, so modern methods may be more effective in the long term as the use of stimulants is likely to lead to a rider over-reaching and collapsing (Simpson perhaps being the perfect example). However, for the odd stage or one day event, or if used in moderation over a longer period, it seems that amphetamines and so forth were quite capable of giving a rider such an advantage that a rider who was racing clean would be very seriously disadvantaged.

It all makes me wonder whether the 'heroic feats' of the past were just as much fabrications of doping as those of the modern era.
 
Robert21 said:
I must admit that I have often accepted the line that we can still consider 'pre-Epo era' performances to be 'authentic', especially those from the days when stimulants were the doping method of choice, on the grounds that these 'Did nothing to alter the basic physiology of the cyclist'. Now I am not so sure.

You might not be sure, but this topic has been done to death and sensible folks have accepted that blood doping was a doping revolution like the machine gun in war. If the athlete responds to its use, then the advantages are overwhelming.

Don't make the mistake of believing blood doping performances could be had prior to EPO.

Also, you are skipping a few generations of doping.

stimulants-pain killers - really old doping
steroids - older school doping with bad side effects
HGH - good mixed with other drugs.
Blood bags - good, not used much until mobile refrigeration worked well.
Oxygen vector doping - All good. overwhelms your clean-ish competitors if you respond well.
Peptides - Newer Really good! Many of the benefits of steroids without the difficulties. Never test positive!
I'm not sure where AICAR fits in history, but probably widely used as it's a known-good drug to mix with peptides and only recently a WADA test has been approved according to Race Radio.
 
Jul 7, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
blood doping was a doping revolution like the machine gun in war. If the athlete responds to its use, then the advantages are overwhelming.

Agreed, but is there not a perhaps tendency to under-state the effectiveness of good old-fashioned stimulants? Yes, Epo has the effectiveness of a machine gun, but a man armed with a musket will always beat the man armed with only his bare hands!

Epo and properly managed blood doping obviously give a much bigger advantage, but stimulants might well be powerful enough on their own to significantly influence the outcome of a race and so rob it of its 'authenticity'. If so, it is probably a mistake to think that in the past it was 'the best man who won' and that the Champions of that era were truly worthy.
 
Good topic, I've thought about it before too.

Vector doping is pretty straightforward way to enhance. You could benefit from EPO just by using it in the off season and it's not going to be damaging to your fitness later in the season. Use it before a stage race the benefit holds for a while, use it consistently during a race and the benefit will be consistent.

The cocktails used before can't match EPO in this regard. But to what extent can they get you up for a a big performance on a specific day? Would their use have been as widespread if there was no real benefit, or was any benefit just placebo?

Things like Anquetil's double make you wonder what crazy gear was used. Then you have Europcar today who seem to do pretty well out of corticosteroid abuse.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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I recently learned (mentioned in recent Victor Conte interview) that testosterone stimulates RBC production as a side effect. Anyone like to comment on the possibility of riders competing with elevated hcts because of this, during the steroid era prior to the o2 vector era?
 
Jul 7, 2012
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Ferminal said:
Would their use have been as widespread if there was no real benefit, or was any benefit just placebo?

If the 'Central Governor' theory has any merit the benefits might well be very real.

I do recall one ex Continental pro and former world pursuit champion who posts on a number of forums (including on here, I think) once saying that when he was racing on the Continent he had seem some pretty spectacular performances as a result of using stimulants alone. Not by him I hasten to add!
 
Mar 13, 2009
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why corticosteroids were an uzi in the pro's armoury.

but they dont compare to the o2 vector techniques that gave one a higher threshold
 
Mar 13, 2009
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taiwan said:
I recently learned (mentioned in recent Victor Conte interview) that testosterone stimulates RBC production as a side effect. Anyone like ti comment on the possibility of riders competing with elevated hcts because of this, during the steroid era prior to the o2 vector era?
yeah, bodybuilders get to over 50 crits thru just testo
 
Oct 21, 2012
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Andy Hampsten, quoted in Tyler's book says something to the effect of "the drugs used in the '80s were powerful, but had drawbacks and a clean rider could compete with dopers because of those drawbacks. EPO changed everything and made it impossible to compete clean in Grand Tours". As he competed against dopers in the '80s and won a Giro, I think it's fair enough to accept that and so, there's no need to re-evaluate the effects of pre-EPO doping.
 
Jul 7, 2012
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Alphabet said:
Andy Hampsten, quoted in Tyler's book says something to the effect of "the drugs used in the '80s were powerful, but had drawbacks and a clean rider could compete with dopers because of those drawbacks. EPO changed everything and made it impossible to compete clean in Grand Tours". As he competed against dopers in the '80s and won a Giro, I think it's fair enough to accept that and so, there's no need to re-evaluate the effects of pre-EPO doping.

I hardly think that the statement of one rider is conclusive. Accepting it also requires us to accept a couple of large and rather obvious assumptions as well!

Even someone like Lemond does not prove that every past champion won by virtue of their merit rather than doping. Ok, so an exceptional rider might still have won sometimes, but where riders were more closely matched, I would bet that more often than not it was the doper who prevailed.
 
Alphabet said:
Andy Hampsten, quoted in Tyler's book says something to the effect of "the drugs used in the '80s were powerful, but had drawbacks and a clean rider could compete with dopers because of those drawbacks. EPO changed everything and made it impossible to compete clean in Grand Tours". As he competed against dopers in the '80s and won a Giro, I think it's fair enough to accept that and so, there's no need to re-evaluate the effects of pre-EPO doping.


im going to agree with this general point, the early 80s you could take the risks to race longer or try match those better than you, along came the 90s and a donkey could become a stallion.
 
DirtyWorks said:
You might not be sure, but this topic has been done to death and sensible folks have accepted that blood doping was a doping revolution like the machine gun in war. If the athlete responds to its use, then the advantages are overwhelming.

Don't make the mistake of believing blood doping performances could be had prior to EPO.

Also, you are skipping a few generations of doping.

stimulants-pain killers - really old doping
steroids - older school doping with bad side effects
HGH - good mixed with other drugs.
Blood bags - good, not used much until mobile refrigeration worked well.
Oxygen vector doping - All good. overwhelms your clean-ish competitors if you respond well.
Peptides - Newer Really good! Many of the benefits of steroids without the difficulties. Never test positive!
I'm not sure where AICAR fits in history, but probably widely used as it's a known-good drug to mix with peptides and only recently a WADA test has been approved according to Race Radio.

You need to CO doping to this list.

Thus far undectable.
 
Robert21 said:
I hardly think that the statement of one rider is conclusive. Accepting it also requires us to accept a couple of large and rather obvious assumptions as well!

Even someone like Lemond does not prove that every past champion won by virtue of their merit rather than doping. Ok, so an exceptional rider might still have won sometimes, but where riders were more closely matched, I would bet that more often than not it was the doper who prevailed.

#1 Andy was a climbing specialist who saw non-specialists blow by him like he was on a cafe run. He knows first hand.

#2 Both Hampsten and Lemond had performance records that validate their elite peloton performances. The same cannot be said as soon as EPO becomes widespread.

The dope just didn't work that well until EPO. EPO/blood bags changed everything.

Also, the HGH is great for endurance athletes in combination with a few peptides according to body building forums.

The HGH/Test/cocktail has a cumulative effect that makes for big performance gains over "pan y agua" athletes. You don't test positive either.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Mr.38% said:
No, if I have the time I'll dig out the study with a nice graph for various dosages.

It's cool thanks I'll take your word for it or have a google.
 
Transfusions have been going on since the 70's. Only banned in 1986 although there was no way to test.

I imagine that with extreme EPO dosing curtailed, were seeing a similar field. Riders do what they can and become better athletes. Sometimes, its not enough to overcome the competition (clean or not), while sometimes, the right combo is enough to blow it away.
 
More Strides than Rides said:
Transfusions have been going on since the 70's. Only banned in 1986 although there was no way to test.

Since when has a ban stopped anyone determined to dope? It became more popular with better refrigeration. Look at all the blood bags from various doping doctor investigations as an example.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Robert21 said:
It seems that there is actually a very poor understanding of what it is that limits human performance, and that when one slows down because of 'fatigue' there are no obvious physiological markers that can be said to cause that fatigue.

Utter nonsense.
 
Jul 7, 2012
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It seems that there is actually a very poor understanding of what it is that limits human performance, and that when one slows down because of 'fatigue' there are no obvious physiological markers that can be said to cause that fatigue.

acoggan said:
Utter nonsense.

Introducing a new series: The mystery of fatigue and the limits to performance

Here's one of the million dollar questions in sports sciences today: How is it possible for a 10km runner to SPEED UP in the final 400m of his race? And if he had that "reserve capacity" all along, why did he not speed up 800m before the end? Or 2km? The whole way?

As you read that, you're probably thinking "Big deal, what a ridiculous question. It's obvious that you can't speed up, because....um, well, you see, it's the....why was that again?"

And now, physiologically speaking, you are stuck. Because the reality is that there is no single physiological theory that can properly explain why athletes pace themselves the way they do, why fatigue happens and what limits performance. There is no book, no proof, no all-knowing scientist who can tell you the answer to this, the most seemingly basic question in the field! As you read this, there's a good chance you're simply dismissing the question as obvious - "It's experience and training, a conscious decision". And I agree with you, but we still haven't explained the physiology of how this decision was made.

It's become something of a mantra here, but the truth is that if anyone tells you they KNOW the answer, they're lying, or ignorant, or both. Because years of research has failed to answer that question definitively. There are theories, yes, and some do explain fatigue under very specific conditions quite well. But to this day, no one really knows the answer to the simple question posed above.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/04/fatigue-series-introduction.html
 
Jul 10, 2013
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A question for all

If you had a doping method that gave you a 4% boost in PPO would that be enough to win the Tdf? I am am assuming you are already a top 100 World class cyclist. What about a 1% boost? I think I know what the Brits may be using and it will blow your mind. Think 'Central Governor' tweaking.