Is it time to re-evaluate the effectiveness of 'old school' doping?

[webbie146]

You might not be sure, but this topic has been done to death and sensible folks have accepted that blood doping was a doping revolution like the machine gun in war. If the athlete responds to its use, then the advantages are overwhelming.

Don't make the mistake of believing blood doping performances could be had prior to EPO.

Also, you are skipping a few generations of doping.

stimulants-pain killers - really old doping
steroids - older school doping with bad side effects
HGH - good mixed with other drugs.
Blood bags - good, not used much until mobile refrigeration worked well.
Oxygen vector doping - All good. overwhelms your clean-ish competitors if you respond well.
Peptides - Newer Really good! Many of the benefits of steroids without the difficulties. Never test positive!
I'm not sure where AICAR fits in history, but probably widely used as it's a known-good drug to mix with peptides and only recently a WADA test has been approved according to Race Radio.

Never heard about Peptides before but looked it up on google and it sounds ideal for cyclist indeed, very interesting.

 

[TheBean]

It seems that there is actually a very poor understanding of what it is that limits human performance, and that when one slows down because of 'fatigue' there are no obvious physiological markers that can be said to cause that fatigue.

This statement is partly true, but there are some known (and measurable) factors that have an effect on fatigue. The simplest of those to understand is blood pH.

Physiological processes that produce energy in the form of ATP (used in muscle contraction) operate at different levels of efficiency different pH's.

Generally, the more alkaline the blood and body (7.45) the more efficient energy production is. The by-products of almost every metabolic process are acidic, thus an increase in metabolism (as we see during exercise) produces a state of acidosis.

I have absolutely no clue what the riders are taking for performance enhancement these days (other than what is widely known), but I theorize that there is a blood alkalizing agent in the mix.

For what it's worth, I have an undergraduate degree in exercise physiology, a master's in biomechanics, am a practicing physician, and have about 20 years of riding (some racing at a local/regional level) in my resume. Not meaning to toot my own horn, just sharing that my theory is based on some knowledge of physiology.

 

[Mr.38%]

It's cool thanks I'll take your word for it or have a google.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2266950/

The fun starts at 300mg/wk so an occasional red egg, patch or whatever does nothing for an elite cyclist (regarding Hb).

 

[TheBean]

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/04/fatigue-series-introduction.html

10K runners can have a strong finishing kick because they are switching from primarily aerobic energy production (electron transport chain) to the anaerobic production of energy (glycolysis).

Glycolytic pathways are only recruitable for a short burst of speed, due to the acidotic by-products of glycolysis.

So, a 10K runner finishing strong is easy to understand. This is old-school science that has withstood the test of time.

During the middle of a 10K, all but the first few hundred meters and last few hundred meters, the runner is trying to stay at 99.9% of his aerobic threshold, thus creating acids at about the same rate as he/she can buffer them from his/her system.

 

[Le Baroudeur]

Fyi. Reliable mobile refrigeration has been around for a century or more.

 

[Zweistein]

This statement is partly true, but there are some known (and measurable) factors that have an effect on fatigue. The simplest of those to understand is blood pH.

Physiological processes that produce energy in the form of ATP (used in muscle contraction) operate at different levels of efficiency different pH's.

Generally, the more alkaline the blood and body (7.45) the more efficient energy production is. The by-products of almost every metabolic process are acidic, thus an increase in metabolism (as we see during exercise) produces a state of acidosis.

I have absolutely no clue what the riders are taking for performance enhancement these days (other than what is widely known), but I theorize that there is a blood alkalizing agent in the mix.

For what it's worth, I have an undergraduate degree in exercise physiology, a master's in biomechanics, am a practicing physician, and have about 20 years of riding (some racing at a local/regional level) in my resume. Not meaning to toot my own horn, just sharing that my theory is based on some knowledge of physiology.

Before you toot your own horn, you might want to make sure you aren't quoting dated theory. The whole lactic acid causes fatigue and acidosis has been disproven for a long time now. If you need more references, I can get them for you.

http://running.competitor.com/2010/01/training/the-lactic-acid-myths_7938
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html?_r=0
http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/training-fitness/lactic-acid-101
http://www.indoorcyclingassociation.com/blog/?p=1873
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/lactate-and-lactic-acid-dispelling-the-myths

 

[TheBean]

Before you toot your own horn, you might want to make sure you aren't quoting dated theory. The whole lactic acid causes fatigue and acidosis has been disproven for a long time now. If you need more references, I can get them for you.

http://running.competitor.com/2010/01/training/the-lactic-acid-myths_7938
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html?_r=0
http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/training-fitness/lactic-acid-101
http://www.indoorcyclingassociation.com/blog/?p=1873
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/lactate-and-lactic-acid-dispelling-the-myths

Carbonic acid is the primary acid that builds up in the blood and changes hemoglobin's binding affinity to oxygen.

No, I am not referring to lactic acid, though its presence in the muscle does impact binding affinity of myoglobin to oxygen.

The lactic acid argument was largely used as an explanation for delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) which usually only occurs in weekend warriors and sedentary people beginning an exercise program.

As for the references you cite, there isn't a scientific journal on the list. If youd like to do some deeper reading, http://www.pubmed.com is a great place to find current articles.

 

[TheBean]

Pyruvic acid concentrations in the mitochondria are also interesting to consider.

Here's a link to wikipedia's general description of metabolic acidosis. It's a bit spotty, but makes for a good introduction...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_acidosis

 

[TheBean]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23182633
(More specific to pathological fatigue, though somewhat applicable)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23136874
(This abstract is more specific to exercise-induced fatigue)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22675303
(Probably the best article of the three when keeping in mind the part of this thread stating that fatigue is not well understood. It is true that it is not fully understood, but there is a lot of research being conducted and some large strides are being made)

 

[DirtyWorks]

I have absolutely no clue what the riders are taking for performance enhancement these days (other than what is widely known), but I theorize that there is a blood alkalizing agent in the mix.

What would you say the benefits of Zinc monomethionine and aspartate and Magnesium Aspartate supplement would be?

I'm also interested to hear about methods to alkilize the blood that you may know. In case it's not obvious, I know nothing.

 

[Robert21]

fatigue... is not fully understood, but there is a lot of research being conducted and some large strides are being made

That would seem to be a much more reasonable statement than Coggan's totally unhelpful 'Utter nonsense' (Then again, such a response seems to be pretty much the norm from him. I hope that he is rather less arrogant and self-important when dealing with his paying clients.)

What I was saying was not 'utter nonsense', in that there does not seem to be a single marker one can point to and say something like 'A blood lactate of 'x' mml/L is the cause of fatigue'. Yes, I know that views about the role of blood lactate have changed over recent years, but the fact that so many exercise physiologists could have been so mistaken about the role of blood lactate, and so recently, just goes to show that they should perhaps show a little more humility until the mechanisms of energy production and fatigue are fully understood. Still, I guess by pretending to be 'all-knowing' coaches and so forth find it easier to recruit clients and persuade them that the training programmes they draw up are worth the money paid.

Looking at this from another perspective. There seems to be good evidence that CNS stimulants such as amphetamine and even caffeine are associated with a delayed onset of fatigue. This suggests that there is something to the 'Central Governor' hypothesis, and that even a full understanding of the mechanisms of cell energy production would still leave the question of what 'causes' fatigue only party answered.

 

[TheBean]

What would you say the benefits of Zinc monomethionine and aspartate and Magnesium Aspartate supplement would be?

I'm also interested to hear about methods to alkilize the blood that you may know. In case it's not obvious, I know nothing.

I'm an orthopedic doc, so my knowledge of recent pharmaceutical alkalyzers is pretty shallow.

I think blood boosting has been the focus of performance research for such a long time that it is a bit played out. Masking agent research will never be played out, fully, so that is always an option. But, the hematocrit caps, EPO tests, CERA tests, tests for plastic from autologous transfusion bags, etc. have worked - at least to some extent.

The problem I see is that a drug to alkalyze would almost certainly have to rely on skeletal calcium as a buffering agent. That would decrease bone density and that's a difficult ethical line to cross, even for the shameless.

 

[TheBean]

Keep in mind, alkalyzing doping products are nothing but a theory that I have.

It's probably mad-capped and way off mark, but interesting to consider the possibilities.

If a drug like EPO had been mentioned during the steroid age it wold have seemed equally bizarre.

I just think there is something going around that is still hush-hush. The riders seem to recover so quickly and completely it's super-human.

Looking at video of Fignon and Lemond after their famous TT, they look SPENT. These guys get off the bike and give intelligible interviews - looking fresh - just after hopping off the bike after a century and more.

 

[Robert21]

Looking at video of Fignon and Lemond after their famous TT, they look SPENT. These guys get off the bike and give intelligible interviews - looking fresh

What you say here reminds me of something I have always felt when training. That is, the ultimate 'cause' of the fatigue I suffer does seem to depend on the level of fitness I have.

To start off with I just feel generally tired. Later on the limit seems to be the amount of oxygen I can supply, and I gasp like a fish when at the limit. Later still, I don't simply 'feel tired' and can breath OK, and at this point, but not really before, I can go hard enough for long enough to get my legs 'burning'. What happens beyond this I don't know!

OK, so my story is hardly a scientific analysis, but it does seem that there could be multiple reasons why fatigue sets in. It also seems possible that asking a general question such as 'What limits performance? is misguided. Rather, it makes more sense to look at a rider's current level of fitness, and the degree to which each of the metabolic systems that contribute to the production of energy have been trained in that rider, and then try to answer the more specific question 'What limits performance in this individual?

 

[sugarman]

If you had a doping method that gave you a 4% boost in PPO would that be enough to win the Tdf? I am am assuming you are already a top 100 World class cyclist. What about a 1% boost? I think I know what the Brits may be using and it will blow your mind. Think 'Central Governor' tweaking.

Ok lets hear it then
Will it blow our minds any more than their performances?

 

[smaryka]

Keep in mind, alkalyzing doping products are nothing but a theory that I have.

Something like Anti-Fatigue caps but on a much larger level? (I have used these, not sure whether it's a placebo effect or not, but they do seem to help)

If you had a doping method that gave you a 4% boost in PPO would that be enough to win the Tdf? I am am assuming you are already a top 100 World class cyclist. What about a 1% boost? I think I know what the Brits may be using and it will blow your mind. Think 'Central Governor' tweaking.

I wondered this too but surely if you're overriding your Central Governor day in and day out you will smash yourself into oblivion? Martin was on the floor yesterday after the TT, Froome not so much. Porte was laughing up the climb last Saturday and the post-race warm-down interview it looked like he'd been out for a gentle spin. They must be using something else for recovery as you could not push yourself past the point of CG fatigue like that and come back fresh every day.

I just think there is something going around that is still hush-hush. The riders seem to recover so quickly and completely it's super-human.

Looking at video of Fignon and Lemond after their famous TT, they look SPENT. These guys get off the bike and give intelligible interviews - looking fresh - just after hopping off the bike after a century and more.

Yes, exactly.

 

[TheBean]

but it does seem that there could be multiple reasons why fatigue sets in?

I think so.

Riders weight train, stretch,ride all sorts of miles and intervals, take rest days, etc. each wth as specific a goal of overload or recovery or recovery. Those two broad terms describe dozens, if not hundreds of metabolic processes.

Tweaking any of them with a pharmaceutical - banned or legal or still unknown - is the goal of a lot of research.

EPO was orginalyly intended to "rebuild" the blod quickly for chemotherapy and radiation patients.

Who knows what's nexr up? And, how it will help performance or recovery?

 

[horsinabout]

Ok, I am tired, fatigued, and it has been a long week, but I'll have a go.

A wonder drug that makes you less fatigued and allows you to train harder?

Would need to give hyper muscle efficiency, including heart and lung muscles.
Need to improve the metabolism/energy transfer at a molecular level (mitochondria)
Improved muscle contraction (related to intensity aerobic/anaerobic), enabling you to train at maximal level for prolonged periods or higher levels of intensity (flat out sprint).

In other words something that makes you super fit!

I have noticed that multi event short endurance/sprint events in the track omnium races are now doing sprint/pursuit times like specialists. Also, like Jessica Ennis could have competed successfully in the individual hurdle event even though she does multi discipline event. And this is an interesting and significant turn around from what is normally possible and indicates much higher levels of recovery and lack fatigue now being achieved by modern athletes.

What are they doing now? Peptide hormones are interesting. Could possibly be something a bit more gene doping manipulated?

 

[sniper]

how does the 'cycling is cleaner' dogma apply to sprinters?
is there any indication to suggest that sprinters in the greipel-kittel-cavendish-sagan category are taking less steroids now than before?

 

[blackcat]

if it gets cleaner every year, will it ever be clean?

 

[acoggan]

That would seem to be a much more reasonable statement than Coggan's totally unhelpful 'Utter nonsense' (Then again, such a response seems to be pretty much the norm from him. I hope that he is rather less arrogant and self-important when dealing with his paying clients.)

"Paying clients"? What is it that you think I do for a living?

 

[acoggan]

For what it's worth, I have an undergraduate degree in exercise physiology, a master's in biomechanics, am a practicing physician, and have about 20 years of riding (some racing at a local/regional level) in my resume. Not meaning to toot my own horn, just sharing that my theory is based on some knowledge of physiology.

Then you should know better than to refer to "lactic acid". (You should also realize that there's very little evidence that blood pH, per se, plays any role in fatigue, even during very high intensity exercise. That's why, e.g., sodium bicarbonate is an effective ergogenic aid only under certain conditions/when used in a chronic manner.)

 

[DirtyWorks]

The problem I see is that a drug to alkalyze would almost certainly have to rely on skeletal calcium as a buffering agent. That would decrease bone density and that's a difficult ethical line to cross, even for the shameless.

The shameless will lose no sleep over it. In fact, if it delivers a win, then it will be celebrated, rewarded, and then minimized as "a little bone loss."

You and I may have an ethical issue, but Armstrong/Ricco/etc certainly don't. Go trawl the bodybuilding forums. No ethical problems with uncontrolled human experimentation.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I'm an orthopedic doc, so my knowledge of recent pharmaceutical alkalyzers is pretty shallow.

Well, then what given your limited expertise would you estimate the benefits of the combination of supplements be?

 

[TheBean]

Well, then what given your limited expertise would you estimate the benefits of the combination of supplements be?

I don't know.

I'm just making the suggestion that there might be focussed phamaceutical doping at something other than anabolism of muscle and increased hematocrit.

Interstitial, intracellular, or blood pH are intersting to consider as possible targets of specific drugs.