Is Philippe Gilbert Doping?

[The Hitch]

Your analogy wasn't accurate - I thought a bit of humour added greatly to it, ymmv.

Ok, you say that this is not a "bait thread" - but this was part of your opening post "I wouldnt start this if his fanboys didnt get on other peoples backs for doping."
That's baiting.

Not if the main fanboy in question isnt a forum poster.

And all im saying is that its what pushed me over the edge so to speak. i had thought about a Gilbert doping thread long long ago, and reconsidered it after MSB, then pjil then Amstel, then Fleche. When Harmonn said that Gilbert is so good because hes anti doping, thats the - "I wouldnt start this..." Im talking about.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Not if the main fanboy in question isnt a forum poster.

And all im saying is that its what pushed me over the edge so to speak. i had thought about a Gilbert doping thread long long ago, and reconsidered it after MSB, then pjil then Amstel, then Fleche. When Harmonn said that Gilbert is so good because hes anti doping, thats the - "I wouldnt start this..." Im talking about.

Once again:
"I wouldnt start this if his fanboys didnt get on other peoples backs for doping."

Fanboy = singular.
Fanboys = plural.

 

[The Hitch]

Once again:
"I wouldnt start this if his fanboys didnt get on other peoples backs for doping."

Fanboy = singular.
Fanboys = plural.

Yes there is more than one. But like you say, its important to identify who they are. how could I be bating them if I dont even identify who they are

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes there is more than one. But like you say, its important to identify who they are. how could I be bating them if I dont even identify who they are

No - I said you should identify those who you say "accused" you of trolling, you still haven't done that btw.

Telling other posters on a different thread that you are starting a thread in the Clinic on a particular rider is baiting them.

 

[The Hitch]

Telling other posters on a different thread that you are starting a thread in the Clinic on a particular rider is baiting them.

I think you just overplayed your hand Dr Maserati. Its suprising because I always praised you of being intelligent and not allowing opponents to get anything past you but I think thats what you have done here.

I did indeed say on another thread "off to the clinic we go".

But had you read the actual thread or the full post rather than just the quote itself in Granvilles post, you will find that it is not a responce or conversation with anyone.

Here is the post

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=494731#post494731


Read it. Read the thread. It is a general comment directed at NO ONE, out of context with any conversation in the thread, announcing that I am starting a thread in the clinic.

So which posters is it that I was supposed to be baiting with that post?

 

[Winterfold]

Hitch - it's perfectly legit to ask the question. But at the same time his and Spartacus's performances in one day races ard much more plausible clean than anything in GTs.

Being well protected by an awesome team then stomping up a 1300m length climb is very believable with 4 days off to follow.

Stomping a 1300m height climb after 2 weeks is another thing entirely.

Obviously what your main aim is to point out any hypocrisy in Gilbert vs spartacus fanboydom but the sports science ( and hence need to dope) of what is happening is completely different.

The 'Gilbert is just an animal' argument is entirely plausible - strong team , short climb, competition aiming to peak later in the year, general awesomeness, not bothered about GT so has upper body muscles, tactically brilliant, it all adds up.

If he starts finishing in top 10 of GTs with his current physique then the balance of doubt shifts for sure - but that hasn't and isn't going to happen

 

[Granville57]

But had you read the actual thread or the full post rather than just the quote itself in Granvilles post, you will find that it is not a responce or conversation with anyone.

Here is the post

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=494731#post494731

Read it. Read the thread. It is a general comment directed at NO ONE, out of context with any conversation in the thread, announcing that I am starting a thread in the clinic.

And if this—from the Fleche Wallonne thread—isn't baiting, of at least one type, I don't know what is:

lol. Harmonn said Gilbert is an outspoken critic of doping ergo good guy.

Off to the clinic we go.

Good lord, Hitch. Are you becoming completely unglued? My quote did not leave a single thing out of your two line post. It was fully intact and verbatim. Anyone who follows your link will see that the two are identical.

This nonsense that your post was directed at "NO ONE"?!?!?!
On the contrary, it was directed at EVERYONE who was following that thread!

Are you feeling OK?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I think you just overplayed your hand Dr Maserati. Its suprising because I always praised you of being intelligent and not allowing opponents to get anything past you but I think thats what you have done here.

I did indeed say on another thread "off to the clinic we go".

But had you read the actual thread or the full post rather than just the quote itself in Granvilles post, you will find that it is not a responce or conversation with anyone.

Here is the post

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=494731#post494731


Read it. Read the thread. It is a general comment directed at NO ONE, out of context with any conversation in the thread, announcing that I am starting a thread in the clinic.

So which posters is it that I was supposed to be baiting with that post?

I read it - if its a "general comment" then it is directed at everyone.

 

[The Hitch]

Good lord, Hitch. Are you becoming completely unglued? My quote did not leave a single thing out of your two line post. It was fully intact and verbatim. Anyone who follows your link will see that the two are identical.


Are you feeling OK?

When you quote someone on these boards all you get is what they wrote. For example if you look above right now, you will find that the various quotes and double quotes that were in your original post do not appear. So when you quoted my post it did not reveal whether it was part of a wider discussion, whether it was a responce to something. Its just a quote and hence does not tell the full story.

I fail to see what the point of this exercise (whether your quote was full or not) is anyway. Unlike your sarcastic inquires into my well being, my passive mention to your post was in no way an insult to you. I find it stupid when people get involved in other peoples disputes. You rarely come off good on it.

This nonsense that your post was directed at "NO ONE"?!?!?!
On the contrary, it was directed at EVERYONE who was following that thread!

So I am baiting everyone? Im baiting the whole world

And you ask if I am ok

 

[The Hitch]

I read it - if its a "general comment" then it is directed at everyone.

Its unfortunate that I have to repeat the question, but here it is again.

If its a general comment, which posters is it that I am baiting?

 

[patricknd]

Its unfortunate that I have to repeat the question, but here it is again.

If its a general comment, which posters is it that I am baiting?

you're baiting all of them. after all they're not free to ignore anything. i think the law requires that they respond, does it not?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Its unfortunate that I have to repeat the question, but here it is again.

If its a general comment, which posters is it that I am baiting?

Thats easy - "his fanboys".
From your first post:

I wouldnt start this if his fanboys didnt get on other peoples backs for doping.

and then in this post shortly after:

...<snipped>

Nah im not baiting anyone. The guys i have in mind arent likely to visit this thread anyway. Its a legitimate discussion.

I personally believe he is dirty. I also believe that all my favourite riders are dirty. I dont buy that there are good guys (Gilbert, Andrew Schleck, etc) who dont dope, and bad guys ( Contador, Valverde, Spanish people) who do. At the top I feel they all do it. Its unfortunate but life is cruel. I continue to love cycling despite it.

 

[JeffreyPerry]

What i find ironic is that The Hitch feels so offended that he requests an apology for someone accusing him of something on a web forum and yet he finds it perfectly ok to accuse someone else (Gilbert in this case) with something even more damaging. Surely this laughable situation is apparent to everyone?

+10...you could very well insert "they" in place of "he" just before the bold part.

 

[Mambo95]

What i find ironic is that The Hitch feels so offended that he requests an apology for someone accusing him of something on a web forum and yet he finds it perfectly ok to accuse someone else (Gilbert in this case) with something even more damaging. Surely this laughable situation is apparent to everyone?

As with the above poster, I'll second this several times over. Unfortunately, pompous, self-righteous fools are usually blind to the stupidity and irony of their own blinkered dogma.

 

[Granville57]

I fail to see what the point of this exercise (whether your quote was full or not) is anyway.

I was merely responding to your use of the phrase "the full post rather than just the quote itself in Granvilles post" which seemed, to me at least, to imply that I had snipped only part of that particular post or yours, and had left something out. That's all.

Unlike your sarcastic inquires into my well being, my passive mention to your post was in no way an insult to you.

In all honesty, my remark was much less sarcastic than you may believe. This particular debate just doesn't seem nearly as convincing as what I'm used to seeing from you. Generally, I find your posts quite convincing.

However, your lack of comprehension on the following, is truly bewildering to me. How you managed to leap from what I've highlighted in red to "the whole world" is not what I would normally expect from you.

This nonsense that your post was directed at "NO ONE"?!?!?!
On the contrary, it was directed at EVERYONE who was following that thread!

So I am baiting everyone? Im baiting the whole world

But I wasn't insulted. I just think we're approaching this differently. As for me jumping in on this: Uhhh, it's not like I'm crashing a PM exchange or something. Everyone is entitled to respond to every post made.

But that gets to the point of me jumping in to begin with. After witnessing the length of this debate, and seeing this thread drift further and further away from the OP, I am only more convinced that this thread was disingenuous from its inception. There seems to be quite another agenda at work that has very little, if anything, to do with whether or not Gilbert is a clean rider.

Too bad, because that might be a good discussion to have. But the way in which is was presented almost guaranteed that a civil discussion would soon evaporate.

The issue that bothers me is, again, this notion that this thread was presented from an "insiders perspective," if you will. It relied upon readers to be up-to-date with all the latests forum politics and built-in rivalries, and as a result, that strikes me as having a bit of an "elitist" sense about it.

As if to suggest, "Your either with the 'in crowd' and you get what I'm inferring with the title, or you're on the outside, looking in, and too bad for you." One big problem, is that a stance like that only fans the flames of those who only see the thread as an attack on Gilbert and miss what was perhaps a clever play on your part. I'll give you that. It was. I understand what your intent was, but I don't think it was very successful in the end.

I really hope you'll consider what I'm putting forward here.
I'll extricate myself from this thread now, because I have no desire to come across as though I'm trying to win the internets this evening.

As always, Hitch, I look forward to reading your posts.
By all means, feel free to PM me if there is any misunderstanding here.

 

[Escarabajo]

No need to, I think you just did!

What a beautiful tie-in of the two names. It was through Billen that Viane hooked up with Gilbert, according to this article.

OK, I would consider that to be a problem in terms of Gilbert's credibility.
It does not look good. Although I still stand by my opinion that his racing style, on its own, is yet to be suspicious to me.

To anyone's knowledge, has Kimmage chimed-in at all on the Billen-Viane-Gilbert soiree?

+1.

I cant believe that the other forum members got involved in a verbal fight about who said what and this info got lost in all the posts. We should be discussing this info more. Maybe some other members know and don't want to say it.

 

[Escarabajo]

No need to, I think you just did!

What a beautiful tie-in of the two names. It was through Billen that Viane hooked up with Gilbert, according to this article.

OK, I would consider that to be a problem in terms of Gilbert's credibility.
It does not look good. Although I still stand by my opinion that his racing style, on its own, is yet to be suspicious to me.

To anyone's knowledge, has Kimmage chimed-in at all on the Billen-Viane-Gilbert soiree?

+1.

We should be discussing these two sentences more instead of the other verbal fight that is going on.

 

[la.margna]

maybe already posted before in this thread, apologies. Ferrari's take on Gilbert's Fleche Wallonne - Mur de Huy performance:

http://bit.ly/dNbyvn

(from 53x12.com)

 

[Dr. Maserati]

maybe already posted before in this thread, apologies. Ferrari's take on Gilbert's Fleche Wallonne - Mur de Huy performance:

http://bit.ly/dNbyvn

(from 53x12.com)

I know it is only a slight difference - but the clip of the last KM shows that Gilbert did not quite ride as fast as Ferrari suggested:

The dominance of Philippe Gilbert on the Muur de Huy was pretty clear: at the finish of a tactically perfect race, the Belgian champion rode the last Km (112m of climbing) in 2’40”, with a VAM of 2520m/h, corresponding to about 570w, assuming a body weight of 68 Kg.

2011 Fleche Wallone 2km (06:09) 1.09 to 1km (7:18) 2:44 to finish (10:02) - total last 2km 3:53.[/QUOTE]

 

[The Hitch]

Thats easy - "his fanboys".
From your first post:

Wrong. You say that the post from the FW thread was a bait. Now you try to prove this by saying that a post posted several minutes later in a different subforum has the word fanboys in it.

Here is the post in question again. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=494731&postcount=315

I do not address anyone. I do not attack Gilberts fans. The word fans doesnt even come up. I merely announce I am going to start a thread about Gilbert in the appropriate subforum.

The only way that can be considering baiting the very fact that I hold an opinion is umm baiting. In which case every time someone posts an opinion they are guility of it.

 

[The Hitch]

As with the above poster, I'll second this several times over. Unfortunately, pompous, self-righteous fools are usually blind to the stupidity and irony of their own blinkered dogma.

Would like to see these points expanded on a bit, rather than left at adhominem.

 

[roundabout]

Times up the Mur are meaningless

Doping doesn't help there.

Gilbert could have done 2.45 before but he was badly positioned.

/thread

 

[The Hitch]

But that gets to the point of me jumping in to begin with. After witnessing the length of this debate, and seeing this thread drift further and further away from the OP, I am only more convinced that this thread was disingenuous from its inception. There seems to be quite another agenda at work that has very little, if anything, to do with whether or not Gilbert is a clean rider.

Too bad, because that might be a good discussion to have. But the way in which is was presented almost guaranteed that a civil discussion would soon evaporate.


I really hope you'll consider what I'm putting forward here.
I'll extricate myself from this thread now, because I have no desire to come across as though I'm trying to win the internets this evening.

As always, Hitch, I look forward to reading your posts.
By all means, feel free to PM me if there is any misunderstanding here.

I am not trying to win the internets, I am defending myself. Had I accused Dr Mas of baiting, then it would be me on the offensive, but when someone claims the raison detre for starting a thread in a clinic about a rider who with a different name would have been in the clinic long ago, I have to defend myself and the thread.

Its very surprising because threads on Wiggins getting 4th in the Tour and Cancellara dominating the cobbles seem kosher on here, but Gilbert winning 3 races in a row in out of this world fashion, produces such disgust.

Why is it ok to accuse Cancellara of doping, to accuse Wiggins of doping, to accuse Michael Kwiatkowski of doping, but not Phillipe Gilbert?


This is a Gilbert doping thread, dont see how its elitist. I will however say that I look forward to seeing the variation of you are "Pompous, self righteous, trying to bait people, this thread should be closed etc etc" that meets any thread in the clinic about any rider who is yet to test positive.


The hijacking of this thread by several people does me no good as I wanted a discussion and with every post accusing me of baiting and my every defense, the thread moves closer to the "closed" red button the mods have access to.

The issue that bothers me is, again, this notion that this thread was presented from an "insiders perspective," if you will. It relied upon readers to be up-to-date with all the latests forum politics and built-in rivalries, and as a result, that strikes me as having a bit of an "elitist" sense about it.

As if to suggest, "Your either with the 'in crowd' and you get what I'm inferring with the title, or you're on the outside, looking in, and too bad for you." One big problem, is that a stance like that only fans the flames of those who only see the thread as an attack on Gilbert and miss what was perhaps a clever play on your part. I'll give you that. It was. I understand what your intent was, but I don't think it was very successful in the end.

What insiders perspective. What are you talking about. I repeat. Gilbert doping thread, titled "No way is Gilbert clean" to draw a direct link with the accusations leveled at Fabian Cancellara

 

[roundabout]

Yep, the only thing that is elitist is the demand to know the underlying motivation for posting things that might be interpreted as putting the sacred cow in a bad light.

It's also quite ironic that "Dr Nick" and Granville are ones doing the hijacking.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Wrong. You say that the post from the FW thread was a bait. Now you try to prove this by saying that a post posted several minutes later in a different subforum has the word fanboys in it.

Here is the post in question again. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=494731&postcount=315

I do not address anyone. I do not attack Gilberts fans. The word fans doesnt even come up. I merely announce I am going to start a thread about Gilbert in the appropriate subforum.

The only way that can be considering baiting the very fact that I hold an opinion is umm baiting. In which case every time someone posts an opinion they are guility of it.

This is really easy - you posted in the FW thread that you were opening a thread in the Clinic (ie to highlight that fact). In your OP here you give the motivation for starting a thread here and when I commented on that you confirmed it.

I'm not baiting you - I am pointing out what actually happened. It is what it is.
Any apology I would make would not be for you, but for the other posters here who have had been following this thread - so with that you can claim whatever you wish, it is up to others to interpret your posts.
I had a view and your subsequent posts have confirmed it - out.