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Is the entire NFL community this naive?

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rgmerk said:

I do not foresee the NFL ever making a public announcement a month after the Super Bowl stating that "we did not find any positives".

I do not foresee any NFL Team marketing itself as a "clean team"
Da Bears. Da Clean Team. Nope, will not happen.

Terry Bradshaw will not become bitter when another QB surpasses his stats.
And cut off his nose to spite his face. That will not happen.

The NFL and its fans would not let that happen.
They are not that stoopid.
 
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After reading the comments at the end of the article, no, it does not appear that "the entire NFL community is that naive." Whether the player's union will ever permit the transparent testing regimens which might remove the naivete from those still clinging to the idea that PED's are solely a problem among track/field and cycling athletes is another matter completely. My naivete is rooted in the hope that someday the NFL, NBA, NHL, & MLB will be motivated/required (by what sources, I have no idea) to establish some clear-cut & effective testing protocols.

In the meantime, I watch in bemused dismay as the UCI (and apparently with the promoters assistance) goes about subverting their established protocols, as well as attempting to bypass the authority given to the national ADA's to perform testing on these same athletes.
 
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Was that article written by Wonderlance?

" But from everything I’ve read, the effects of HGH aren’t drastic. So why is a football player going to bother with that uncertainty? Why seek out, acquire, and inject a substance that might help me a tiny bit?"

"Besides, these men are naturally freakish specimens. They don’t need drugs to look like that."


Serious?
 
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Altitude said:
Yeah, but don't you find the article to be slightly insulting?

Insulting? Why? If I had a magic wand that made all desire to gain every edge in competition and made the love of pure holy competition universal I would. I don't though. Fans, including cycling fans want super human performance. When that isn't achieved those who fall short are derided for their shortcomings and discarded. It's a tough, brutal racket.

Most sports fans just want the spectacle and don't care that much about PEDs. Many more cycling fans seem to want the spectacle, the super human performance but wrap themselves in self righteous indignation that in order to give them what hey want, the athletes can't do it on bread water and good clean living.
 
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9000ft said:
Insulting? Why? If I had a magic wand that made all desire to gain every edge in competition and made the love of pure holy competition universal I would. I don't though. Fans, including cycling fans want super human performance. When that isn't achieved those who fall short are derided for their shortcomings and discarded. It's a tough, brutal racket.

Most sports fans just want the spectacle and don't care that much about PEDs. Many more cycling fans seem to want the spectacle, the super human performance but wrap themselves in self righteous indignation that in order to give them what hey want, the athletes can't do it on bread water and good clean living.

Bingo, nail meet hammer. Nice post.

The self-righteous in here seem to think their little war is shared by more than their little hissy fit throwing crowd. Most of the people don't care if professionals use dope.
 
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9000ft said:
Insulting? Why? If I had a magic wand that made all desire to gain every edge in competition and made the love of pure holy competition universal I would. I don't though. Fans, including cycling fans want super human performance. When that isn't achieved those who fall short are derided for their shortcomings and discarded. It's a tough, brutal racket.

Most sports fans just want the spectacle and don't care that much about PEDs. Many more cycling fans seem to want the spectacle, the super human performance but wrap themselves in self righteous indignation that in order to give them what hey want, the athletes can't do it on bread water and good clean living.

The articles about NFL wives/families of ex-players trying to provide long term care for those NFL alumni that are so damaged that they can't function is heartbreaking. They can't get money from anybody else so they use the workman's comp laws to sue for damages for work related injuries. The NFL spends 10's of millions keeping these stories out of the news by paying the player/family lump sums under the condition that they not discuss the suit or anything else.
If the average fan was exposed to a where are they now segment of lots of NFL players the opinions on PED use as standard practice may change rapidly.
Bike racers have already done so many other things to screw up there bodies that PED's is a small factor in the overall physical and financial outcome of their career. UCI and NFL wage minimums are not to compared, even in the 3rd world a couple of years salary for a pro rider won't buy a good used car after expenses are paid. Certainly nobody is talking about long term care for the Ricco's of the sport. How much cash did the UCI buck up for the care that Saul Rasin will require until death?
 
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fatandfast said:
The articles about NFL wives/families of ex-players trying to provide long term care for those NFL alumni that are so damaged that they can't function is heartbreaking. They can't get money from anybody else so they use the workman's comp laws to sue for damages for work related injuries. The NFL spends 10's of millions keeping these stories out of the news by paying the player/family lump sums under the condition that they not discuss the suit or anything else.
If the average fan was exposed to a where are they now segment of lots of NFL players the opinions on PED use as standard practice may change rapidly.
...

And who's fault is that? NFL players make 1000's times as much money as the avg American, and instead of planning for the future they blow all of that money real time on houses/cars/"bling"/hangers ons, etc.

It is sad on the surface, but they had the ability to plan for the potential of having to have long term care. Also, they had the free will to choose another profession. Somebody that goes into a profession knowing what they are doing to themselves, and suffer long term damage they refused to plan for, is not a "victim".
 
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ChrisE said:
And who's fault is that? NFL players make 1000's times as much money as the avg American, and instead of planning for the future they blow all of that money real time on houses/cars/"bling"/hangers ons, etc.

It is sad on the surface, but they had the ability to plan for the potential of having to have long term care. Also, they had the free will to choose another profession. Somebody that goes into a profession knowing what they are doing to themselves, and suffer long term damage they refused to plan for, is not a "victim".

I will allow you to be right, yes a 22 year old black kid with little to no education( yes w the 4 years of college) should have known to feather his nest, lets say fully vested by 25. He should have know that the job he had for 3 years would make his brain and body not function at 55. After all ,the surrounding coaches, agents, trainers and doctors should have been looked at as liars with his worldly 22 year old eyes. WW2 vets that were exposed to asbestos should have known better? After all most were adults of 18 or so..

I was not asking you to pity them and all the cash they got that put to use should be able to overcome any obstacle later in life. As everybody else in a way less rewarding and risky job watches their 401k crumble, your logic will be repeated from now on. Add school teachers to the bike racer and football player list of people that should know better.

Playing in the NFL for a few years in your view is so rewarding that the unknown medical conditions later on is a wash. Each time I ever start to think like this I watch Hoop Dreams and watch the people with all their good intentions.
 
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fatandfast said:
I will allow you to be right, yes a 22 year old black kid with little to no education( yes w the 4 years of college) should have known to feather his nest, lets say fully vested by 25. He should have know that the job he had for 3 years would make his brain and body not function at 55. After all ,the surrounding coaches, agents, trainers and doctors should have been looked at as liars with his worldly 22 year old eyes. WW2 vets that were exposed to asbestos should have known better? After all most were adults of 18 or so..

I was not asking you to pity them and all the cash they got that put to use should be able to overcome any obstacle later in life. As everybody else in a way less rewarding and risky job watches their 401k crumble, your logic will be repeated from now on. Add school teachers to the bike racer and football player list of people that should know better.

Playing in the NFL for a few years in your view is so rewarding that the unknown medical conditions later on is a wash. Each time I ever start to think like this I watch Hoop Dreams and watch the people with all their good intentions.

Hi strawman.

Yes, lump teachers and others that make millions of dollars while taking PEDs into your victim pile. It is so similar. :rolleyes:

Unknown medical conditions? lol, how many times does it have to happen to where we can move these "unknown conditions later in life due to being a victim" to the "hey dumbazz, you should've chosen to go into another profession but since you didn't, and you didn't prepare for the well known results of that decison, you are a dumbazz" category, ie "look in the mirror" category.

Of course, how can I be so insensitive? The 22 year old that was offered a free education (while I am currently saving $100k so my daughter can have what he got for free) he didn't take advantage of, to use when he got out of football. Instead, they are 25 and broke after blowing their signing bonuses and salary over those 3 years on important stuff like cars and jewelry.

It is a good thing you "allow me to be right" lol. I will return the favor...I will allow you to be a bleeding heart believing in zero accountability victimhood as a result of freely made bad decisions. I sleep well at night, thank you. I am sure you do as well.
 
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ChrisE said:
Hi strawman.

Yes, lump teachers and others that make millions of dollars while taking PEDs into your victim pile. It is so similar. :rolleyes:

Unknown medical conditions? lol, how many times does it have to happen to where we can move these "unknown conditions later in life due to being a victim" to the "hey dumbazz, you should've chosen to go into another profession but since you didn't, and you didn't prepare for the well known results of that decison, you are a dumbazz" category, ie "look in the mirror" category.

Of course, how can I be so insensitive? The 22 year old that was offered a free education (while I am currently saving $100k so my daughter can have what he got for free) he didn't take advantage of, to use when he got out of football. Instead, they are 25 and broke after blowing their signing bonuses and salary over those 3 years on important stuff like cars and jewelry.

It is a good thing you "allow me to be right" lol. I will return the favor...I will allow you to be a bleeding heart believing in zero accountability victimhood as a result of freely made bad decisions. I sleep well at night, thank you. I am sure you do as well.

So I will will wear the strawman hat while you wear the restart history every 5 or 10 years. When most of the 50 and 60 year old NFL players got drafted they didn't make mounds of money. When most of my family went to school they did it using cash from part time jobs, but some savings from the family was needed. The perverse combining of today with 40 years ago is where we are, all the people feeling that athletes are spoiled snobs, while in reality nobody cares if they get a credit hour in school. Dozens of people and systems in place to have pretend student athletes. They are athletes but hardly students. I remember reading Rosie Grier talking about how some of his fellow players could not read or write, even after attending college. They struggled with it, but the support cast in place assured them that football would be all they need. All your eggs in the athlete basket doesn't work out to often. I admire people like yourself that save the money for your kids. The issues are hardly the same. The numbers of athletes who get a full ride is tiny compared to the paying student body. The money they don't pay is a drop in the bucket.
 
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fatandfast said:
So I will will wear the strawman hat while you wear the restart history every 5 or 10 years. When most of the 50 and 60 year old NFL players got drafted they didn't make mounds of money. When most of my family went to school they did it using cash from part time jobs, but some savings from the family was needed. The perverse combining of today with 40 years ago is where we are, all the people feeling that athletes are spoiled snobs, while in reality nobody cares if they get a credit hour in school. Dozens of people and systems in place to have pretend student athletes. They are athletes but hardly students. I remember reading Rosie Grier talking about how some of his fellow players could not read or write, even after attending college. They struggled with it, but the support cast in place assured them that football would be all they need. All your eggs in the athlete basket doesn't work out to often. I admire people like yourself that save the money for your kids. The issues are hardly the same. The numbers of athletes who get a full ride is tiny compared to the paying student body. The money they don't pay is a drop in the bucket.

You sure do shift gears and go off on tangents when you start getting your anus handed to you on a thread. Projecting what is going on when somebody is 60, 30-40 years after they are out of football on this subject is pretty weak oldman. Besides, we are talking HGH and other modern PEDs. Remember, PEDs did not help until Greg Lemond started losing, so anything pre 1991 there should be no argument. :rolleyes:

It seems that you are twisting this argument into whether the NFL supports its retired players, vs effects of PEDs and the acceptance of them by the public. Or, whether football is a violent game that will effect the body long after they stop playing. That is a different subject; you should start a new thread before you get in trouble for going off topic.

I do agree with you..."nobody cares whether the athlete gets a credit hour in school". Newsflash, maybe the athlete himself should care. Wouldn't that help solve this little issue of vicimization? Don't answer that....I don't really care to hear about an 80 year old that can't mow their yard because they played football 50 years ago. Or, some other off topic anecdote that does nothing but waste bandwidth and opens you up to punishment by the mods.

Finally, whether somebody can read or write is irrelevant to this argument, but does emphasize my point about taking advantage of the free education offered so thank you for bringing it up.

I'm pretty tired of this petty little discussion, so have fun with your reply. Maybe you can reply to your reply like the hog, to keep the subject going and to satisfy a need for internet forum induced ego stroking. Hopefully one of your buddies will slither in here and put forth some more evidence why people cannot make choices on their own, and take care of themselves. Have a good day.
 

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9000ft said:
Insulting? Why? If I had a magic wand that made all desire to gain every edge in competition and made the love of pure holy competition universal I would. I don't though. Fans, including cycling fans want super human performance. When that isn't achieved those who fall short are derided for their shortcomings and discarded. It's a tough, brutal racket.

Most sports fans just want the spectacle and don't care that much about PEDs. Many more cycling fans seem to want the spectacle, the super human performance but wrap themselves in self righteous indignation that in order to give them what hey want, the athletes can't do it on bread water and good clean living.

There is little spectacle in "super human performances" - people prefer human performance.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
There is little spectacle in "super human performances" - people prefer human performance.

You keep telling youself that. It helps fuel your little crusade.

Oh yeah, also tell the 80k packed in each NFL stadium this weekend and the millions watching on TV they don't prefer what they are watching. Doubtful the majority of those people don't know the players are on PEDs.

As smart as you are, can't you develop some type of email spam to every email address in the world and tell them to stop watching the NFL because they don't prefer it?
 

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ChrisE said:
You keep telling youself that. It helps fuel your little crusade.

Oh yeah, also tell the 80k packed in each NFL stadium this weekend and the millions watching on TV they don't prefer what they are watching. Doubtful the majority of those people don't know the players are on PEDs.

As smart as you are, can't you develop some type of email spam to every email address in the world and tell them to stop watching the NFL because they don't prefer it?

Which has nothing to do with the earlier comment made about "superhuman performance".
People go to games to watch their team win.
 
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9000ft said:
Insulting? Why? If I had a magic wand that made all desire to gain every edge in competition and made the love of pure holy competition universal I would. I don't though. Fans, including cycling fans want super human performance. When that isn't achieved those who fall short are derided for their shortcomings and discarded. It's a tough, brutal racket.

Most sports fans just want the spectacle and don't care that much about PEDs. Many more cycling fans seem to want the spectacle, the super human performance but wrap themselves in self righteous indignation that in order to give them what hey want, the athletes can't do it on bread water and good clean living.

Insulting because the writer of the article expects people to believe whatever he says. I don't see how the rest of your post is relevant.
 
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Altitude said:
Insulting because the writer of the article expects people to believe whatever he says. I don't see how the rest of your post is relevant.


Expects? I think a reader of anything is free to judge for themselves.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
There is little spectacle in "super human performances" - people prefer human performance.

Can't say I agree with you Doc. People want to see slam dunks from the foul line, wide receivers jumping over the top of corner backs in the end zone for the diving catch, hits that rattle the glass on the stadium lights. One more world record. The bar is always moving upward, nobody, or at least very few want to see it moved down.

Look at the CN forum. The fans want attack after attack. If someone is labeled "boring" or a "wheel sucker", or "lacks panache", then they are a looser and worthy of if not contempt, then at least derision.

People may say they don't want their favorite pro athlete performers (and that's what they are, performers) to be physical freaks, or dopers, but what they want even less is for them to be normal.

Sport fandom doesn't often bring out the best in people.
 
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9000ft said:
Expects? I think a reader of anything is free to judge for themselves.

Judging by some of the things he wrote, it seems to me that he believes his readers know very little about doping products and about sport in general. By dismissing HGH use on the basis that "the results aren't drastic" or claiming they wouldn't use it because "these men are naturally freakish specimens", is completely ridiculous. He doesn't even leave room to consider the possibilty that NFL players are doping. The title is "Why HGH will never be a problem in the NFL" for christs sake.

Anyways, you went off on some tangent about how people want to see superhuman performances. I am not disputing this, however it does nothing to change the fact that the writer takes his readers for absolute fools. That was and still is my only point.
 
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how pathetic

ChrisE said:
Bingo, nail meet hammer. Nice post.

The self-righteous in here seem to think their little war is shared by more than their little hissy fit throwing crowd. Most of the people don't care if professionals use dope.

There should be a special word for "doping trolls".... drolls?

One CAN be against doping without being self righteous.

One CAN be against doing without it being a "little war".

There CAN be an anti doping group without it being a "hissy fit".... blah blah."

Because YOU do not care about doping in no way proves that "most people" don't care.

You CANNOT make idiotic posts like that without coming off as a complete door-knob.

Back under your bridge!
 

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9000ft said:
Can't say I agree with you Doc. People want to see slam dunks from the foul line, wide receivers jumping over the top of corner backs in the end zone for the diving catch, hits that rattle the glass on the stadium lights. One more world record. The bar is always moving upward, nobody, or at least very few want to see it moved down.
Again, none of that is "super-human".
Nor is it the main reason follow sports - how many events have any of the examples you offer?



9000ft said:
Look at the CN forum. The fans want attack after attack. If someone is labeled "boring" or a "wheel sucker", or "lacks panache", then they are a looser and worthy of if not contempt, then at least derision.
Again - "attack after attack" is not superhuman - go to a local underage race if you don't believe me.

Why do people want attack after attack? Because it makes the event unpredictable and gives the natural order. One of the elements that provides the entertainment in sport.

9000ft said:
People may say they don't want their favorite pro athlete performers (and that's what they are, performers) to be physical freaks, or dopers, but what they want even less is for them to be normal.

Sport fandom doesn't often bring out the best in people.
Difficult to argue against a made up hypothetical - "people" want their favorite to win. The hows are secondary.

There is as much beauty passion and drama in watching a rider blow up as there is in a rider attacking.
 
ChrisE said:
You keep telling youself that. It helps fuel your little crusade.

Oh yeah, also tell the 80k packed in each NFL stadium this weekend and the millions watching on TV they don't prefer what they are watching. Doubtful the majority of those people don't know the players are on PEDs.

As smart as you are, can't you develop some type of email spam to every email address in the world and tell them to stop watching the NFL because they don't prefer it?

Okay ChrisE,

I read a spirited defense of doping in your comments that boils down to something like consumers want doping.

Then let's start with you and your progeny. C'mon now. What's first? HGH? Testosterone therapy? EPO works wonders. Never mind some of these are controlled substances. The rule of law should never get in the way of consumers and their desire for drugs like HGH, EPO and heroin.

Start doping your kid(s) young so there's no record of mediocre performances to pollute a perfect myth. What are you going to give them first? EPO maybe? When do they get to do their own injections? Are you going to teach them or hire someone to teach them to use controlled substances in clear contravention of law? You repeatedly defend the use in others so it's okay for your kids. Step up. Whatever sport your child excels in will probably cover the positives as long as the kid keeps winning. Doping your kids is cool that way.

You claim there are no specific consequences to any of these actions, so it's OK to start doping your kid(s) early and often. C'mon now, lay out the plan for all of us.

Doping is still okay, right? Or, are you going to pretend the challenge doesn't exist like fatandfast.

Your talk is cheap.
 
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ChrisE said:
You keep telling youself that. It helps fuel your little crusade.

Oh yeah, also tell the 80k packed in each NFL stadium this weekend and the millions watching on TV they don't prefer what they are watching. Doubtful the majority of those people don't know the players are on PEDs.

As smart as you are, can't you develop some type of email spam to every email address in the world and tell them to stop watching the NFL because they don't prefer it?

"His little crusade" - bit of an odd term to give a fight against drugs involving athletes, sports administrators, journalists, police and judges from across the world.

Performances are all relative - soccer fans think a game with 4 goals is good - give a 4 point game to a basketball fan and they'd wonder what the hell was going on. We, as humans, have no inbuilt reference point as to what a good showing in a chosen sport is. Only by watching it and tuning our brains do we come to learn what is normal, what we are meant to be impressed by and what is dull.

One absolute, however, is that people like performances they can relate to. This is, I feel, one of the reasons the 100m final holds such prestige as an Olympic event, and draws such high viewing figures. While there might be more tactical intrigue in the road race or the 10k, everyone can relate to the idea of running as fast as you can for a short time.

This, I feel parallels sports fans' attitudes to doping - they don't want to see what the human body+drugs can achieve, they want to see what the human body can achieve. When friends find out I follow cycling, they commonly dismiss it as a "load of puffs in lycra riding around on drugs". While the first part can hardly be helped, the second is very relevant to cycling's appeal to fans, and hence marketability.

To see this you only have to follow the money. Big-name sponsors have pulled out as they feel the sport is tainted.