Is UAE Over the Top?

[Unchained]

The first few paragraphs of post #484 I can relate to,
comments about a UAE Hirschi compared to other output for other teams?
Who knows.. Del Toro and Marc Hirsci did both have a late season surge while riding for UAE..what does that mean if anything.
My only problem with most everything is expansive cycling conversations is the burden of either self correction or self validation with no access to data, no real facts.
I know that there could be enormous pitfalls to transparency at the UCI.
If they had something basic and inexpensive it would never work, it can't work.

Isaac Del Toro was tested on date and time and the results are..----------.
Tadej Pogacar was tested on date and time results are----------. .

If you UCI tells us who they are testing and the results, immediately people will question why other riders are not be tested, or tested less frequently.

UCI can't publicly list the criteria for testing riders like.....because they win, they have inconsistent results, they suddenly retire ( Yates example) .

Many of the back and forth battles here, most bike racing content would be better with data..All who are really paying attention know that watching TV or videos of bike racing, racers, following them on Strava or the equivalent is not substantial or scientific.
We all see what happens when law enforcement says something to the effect..
We all know what a drug user looks and acts like... Yikes.
Forum represents a kind of cycling vigilante group not officially in charge of law enforcement, but if nobody is doing it, why not.
Many of these forums follow that wild west lawman thing.. Lock them up now we will work out the details down at the station.. Shoot first, ask questions later.
Pogacar and dozens of others are treated and talked about as if they have been convicted of something.. or even accused of something.
You can feel and taste how angry, disappointed, disillusioned people are with what they see and feel is out in the open crimes.., going unacknowledged and unpunished.

A case can be made for the public playing a role..some kind of David Walsh derivative to get to desired end..and all this might work..
In my view the best way to find out if Tadej Pogacar is gassed to the gills and is destroying records via some super human pharmaceutical program.. Ok..
Could there be a crowd sourced fund trying to compel Pog to test to quite the controversy.. Not going to happen.
Maybe bombarding UCI demanding something.. How many riders are tested? Time and dates..no names needed.. Maybe a by event tally..
My repetitive point is always, why are people not asking, demanding that UCI do their job and put some of all this to rest..
I suspect it's because if it was public of just how little they are doing, ...who is doing it ....things would be worse.. As if that's possible.
Lots of points of view in my opinion need to be based on.. ..I don't know ( assumed) or start or end everything with I don't know or I am not sure..
when you write that someone is a " super responder" or " @eats drugs at Christmas dinner..doesn't seem good.
In my opinion allowing the public to wildly speculate on who is doping,
if they are being tested, ...who... ,when, how much..it's really a miscarriage of a great sport, as if they see the building on fire and do nothing because they are at a great party in a different part of the building which is not obviously affected.

 

[AlpRaid]

Pogacar was involved with UAE before he won the Tour de l'Avenir in 2018. UAE announced his signing on 22/8/2018, in the middle of that race.
If you think Pogacar is so talented, look at his results prior to signing for UAE. They're not special, especially if you compare them to Evenepoel or Seixas.
So we can observe 3 jumps in form.
1. Tour de l'Avenir 2018 compared to earlier seasons after signing for UAE
2. 2019 Season in which he dominated pros, while he couldn't do the same with U23 in prior seasons.
3. 2024-2026 as if 2019-2023 wasn't crazy enough.

Del Toro is a similar story. He won next to nothing in his first 3 seasons and his first spectacular result is in the season when he signed for UAE. Subsequently he starts dominating the pros on nearly any terrain.

Many riders at UAE perform(ed) within reasonable expectations. They're not the focus in the clinic. Ayuso is a great example. He was by far the most talented rider UAE ever signed, but he never reached suspicious intergalactic levels like the Slovenian. I wonder why.

I can't speak for everyone, but your conspiracy theories make no sense to me. The main reason many people in the clinic focus on UAE, is that this kind of absurd domination of one rider has never occurred before and it happens under the guidance of two of the most corrupt people in cycling.
This domination happens on any terrain, in one day races, 1-week stage races and grand tours with considerable ease.
That's not the cycling most of us look forward to.

superb post.

 

[Red Rick]

The first few paragraphs of post #484 I can relate to,
comments about a UAE Hirschi compared to other output for other teams?
Who knows.. Del Toro and Marc Hirsci did both have a late season surge while riding for UAE..what does that mean if anything.
My only problem with most everything is expansive cycling conversations is the burden of either self correction or self validation with no access to data, no real facts.
I know that there could be enormous pitfalls to transparency at the UCI.
If they had something basic and inexpensive it would never work, it can't work.

Isaac Del Toro was tested on date and time and the results are..----------.
Tadej Pogacar was tested on date and time results are----------. .

If you UCI tells us who they are testing and the results, immediately people will question why other riders are not be tested, or tested less frequently.

UCI can't publicly list the criteria for testing riders like.....because they win, they have inconsistent results, they suddenly retire ( Yates example) .

Many of the back and forth battles here, most bike racing content would be better with data..All who are really paying attention know that watching TV or videos of bike racing, racers, following them on Strava or the equivalent is not substantial or scientific.
We all see what happens when law enforcement says something to the effect..
We all know what a drug user looks and acts like... Yikes.
Forum represents a kind of cycling vigilante group not officially in charge of law enforcement, but if nobody is doing it, why not.
Many of these forums follow that wild west lawman thing.. Lock them up now we will work out the details down at the station.. Shoot first, ask questions later.
Pogacar and dozens of others are treated and talked about as if they have been convicted of something.. or even accused of something.
You can feel and taste how angry, disappointed, disillusioned people are with what they see and feel is out in the open crimes.., going unacknowledged and unpunished.

A case can be made for the public playing a role..some kind of David Walsh derivative to get to desired end..and all this might work..
In my view the best way to find out if Tadej Pogacar is gassed to the gills and is destroying records via some super human pharmaceutical program.. Ok..
Could there be a crowd sourced fund trying to compel Pog to test to quite the controversy.. Not going to happen.
Maybe bombarding UCI demanding something.. How many riders are tested? Time and dates..no names needed.. Maybe a by event tally..
My repetitive point is always, why are people not asking, demanding that UCI do their job and put some of all this to rest..
I suspect it's because if it was public of just how little they are doing, ...who is doing it ....things would be worse.. As if that's possible.
Lots of points of view in my opinion need to be based on.. ..I don't know ( assumed) or start or end everything with I don't know or I am not sure..
when you write that someone is a " super responder" or " @eats drugs at Christmas dinner..doesn't seem good.
In my opinion allowing the public to wildly speculate on who is doping,
if they are being tested, ...who... ,when, how much..it's really a miscarriage of a great sport, as if they see the building on fire and do nothing because they are at a great party in a different part of the building which is not obviously affected.

Gianetti dopes himself into coma

Gets busted with Saunier Duval.
Gets busted with Geox

Is squaky clean with UAE, and somehow suddenly the most succesful manager in cycling history.

To act like this deserves even the benefit of the doubt is grossly insulting to anyone with the gift of critical thinking.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Start of 2018 is when Pogacar was with UAE (Signed a pre-contract), I've heard many of the younger guys actually live in Maxtin's house though that is only a rumour. From the horses mouth;

Get to know Tadej Pogacar

Despite still only being 19 years of age, Slovenian Tadej Pogacar is already one of the biggest names on the U23 scene. Last season, while riding for Slovenian Continental squad ROG-Ljubljana, he a…

u23cyclingzone.wordpress.com

Despite still only being 19 years of age, Slovenian Tadej Pogacar is already one of the biggest names on the U23 scene. Last season, while riding for Slovenian Continental squad ROG-Ljubljana, he amassed some big results in both major European U23 races, as well as in some big professional races. This earmarked Tadej for success, which is why he was included in U23 Cycling Zone’s 18 for ’18 list of U23s to watch this season. Apparently, we were not the only ones watching, as Tadej was reportedly offered a precontract agreement from a WorldTour team before he even pinned on a race number in 2018, a situation he was good enough to clarify in the interview.

 

[Gratemans]

Gianetti dopes himself into coma

Gets busted with Saunier Duval.
Gets busted with Geox

Is squaky clean with UAE, and somehow suddenly the most succesful manager in cycling history.

To act like this deserves even the benefit of the doubt is grossly insulting to anyone with the gift of critical thinking.

No Red Rick, you don't get it. This is not critical thinking, this is obvioulsy blind Pogacar hatred...

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

No Red Rick, you don't get it. This is not critical thinking, this is obvioulsy blind Pogacar hatred...

How so? He only mentioned Gianetti and I think there's a consensus that Gianetti is the biggest problem.

 

[Gratemans]

How so? He only mentioned Gianetti and I think there's a consensus that Gianetti is the biggest problem.

I thought it was pretty clear I was being sarcastic.

 

[Cookster15]

Gianetti dopes himself into coma

Gets busted with Saunier Duval.
Gets busted with Geox

Is squaky clean with UAE, and somehow suddenly the most succesful manager in cycling history.

To act like this deserves even the benefit of the doubt is grossly insulting to anyone with the gift of critical thinking.

It certainly raises flashing red lights but that doesn't mean Gianetti found doctors who gave Pogacar and UAE a doping advantage compared to the other teams and talents in the peloton.

Gianetti's doping as a rider during the EPO era and Saunier Duval in 2008 (CERA) was amateurish and frankly laughable - a red herring IMO. It is a quantum leap from doping at those times to what is required to produce the performances we have seen from Pogacar since - and not trigger the passport.

Geox was Juan José Cobo who won the 2011 Vuelta ahead of Froome and wasn't busted until 8 years later due to bio passport anomalies. Both riders were highly suspicious, i.e. not only Gianetti's rider.

The on demandness of the performance was never clearer than Planche de Belles Filles.

Then 21 year old Pogacar was already super competitive in that Tour. Roglic was mediocre at PdBF - finishing 5th and losing (I think?) 1'20" on the climb. Pog wasn't the only suspect performance that day either. Richie Porte at Trek pulled out a phenomenal ride that day too - grabbing back the podium spot. I put this down to funny business in the peloton around the time of Covid and lack of out of competition testing. The beginning of a step up in the peloton which I think continues to this day?

The Peyragudes stage in 2022 was a sight to behold too.

With respect, this seems clutching at straws. That stage was won by Vingegaard after Pog and UAE threw everything but the kitchen sink at him? Strongest rider was still Vingegaard.

I'd like to see more focus on Maxtin and the UAE doctors and how a UAE doctor could possibly be allowed to be on the UCI anti doping panel? That is where a scrupulous investigative journalist can really help. But there is also more than one person on that panel? How can one person sway the entire panel to overlook Pogi's samples or bio passport anomalies? Could it be talent is a factor?

Rarely see much discussion of UAE doctors here just the ringleader Mauro Gianetti who, with respect to the man, is no rocket scientist (like Michele Ferrari for example).

I'd also like to know how super responders can be identified at super young ages ? Trial and error? How did Gianetti stumble upon Pog - now Del Toro?

Again, I have zero doubt Pogacar is doping with the best. But I still have trouble accepting there are any unfair doping advantages compared to Vingo, Remco and the rest.

 

[canina82]

Gianetti dopes himself into coma

Gets busted with Saunier Duval.
Gets busted with Geox

Is squaky clean with UAE, and somehow suddenly the most succesful manager in cycling history.

To act like this deserves even the benefit of the doubt is grossly insulting to anyone with the gift of critical thinking.

Who is questioning if Pogacar is doping or not? I don't think anyone here believes in Gianetti and Pogacar.

 

[Red Rick]

I don't think anyone here believes in Gianetti and Pogacar.

Every single media outlet, pundit, commentator or rider acts the exact opposite way.

 

[canina82]

I laughed so hard when I read Ayuso was by far the most talented rider. Lol, dude has been training like a professional since he is 16-17, of course he will get huge results. But time passed and he didn't improve a lot even with the magical Gianetti and Matxin on his side.
Oh the other hand, Pogacar who came from a slovenian team (probably a joke in professionalism) and when he made the jump to a WT team, it's obvious he would improve a lot. This habit of thinking the best juniors are the best elite riders just makes me laugh.

 

[Cookster15]

Every single media outlet, pundit, commentator or rider acts the exact opposite way.

Buy why? Fear of litigation ? This is why I have suggested it can be done behind closed doors.

 

[Red Rick]

Buy why? Fear of litigation ? This is why I have suggested it can be done behind closed doors.

I doubt there's any serious threats like that. There's no fear of litigation when they talk about Sky or whatever.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

With respect, this seems clutching at straws. That stage was won by Vingegaard after Pog and UAE threw everything but the kitchen sink at him? Strongest rider was still Vingegaard.

With respect your memory of the stage seems patchy, the Peyragudes stage was won by Pogacar, the day before Majka had to retire after hurting himself, so the prospects looked rather dire for UAE after losing what was up to then their strongest moutain domestique.
What happened then? Bjerg suddenly showed a climbing level completely at odds with what he had shown before or would show after that day, channeling an improved 2008 Cancellara (He dropped most of the Top 10 and reeled the break all by himself over Hourquette d'Ancizan and Val Louron).
Mc Nulty then took over and dropped everyone bar Pogacar and Vingegaard and proceeded to pull them up to the final wall of Peyragudes, putting over 2' into Thomas. Slightly less insane than Bjerg at the time, but still a few level above his past and future performance.
I remeber thinking at the time "it can't get much more obvious than this, either they dropped a bloog bag or they have another way to do blood boosting on a chosen day".

 

[Cookster15]

I doubt there's any serious threats like that. There's no fear of litigation when they talk about Sky or whatever.

Okay. But that raises the question why no journalist anywhere has bothered to seriously look into Pogacar or Gianetti? We know heavy doping occurs in other bigger professional sports but the competition is still considered fair.

I am only asking questions here wanting the truth. The Clinic is full of unsubstantiated conspiracy theories and groupthink. That is kind of why the Clinic exists but people also want to enjoy following racing knowing it is a fair fight.

IMO, much of these theories seem motivated by which rival riders or teams people follow rather than genuine concern for the sport or fair competition? We all have our favorites but when your rider beats mine it must be an unfair doping advantage. I suppose at least for now motors have gone quiet

 

[Cookster15]

With respect your memory of the stage seems patchy, the Peyragudes stage was won by Pogacar, the day before Majka had to retire after hurting himself, so the prospects looked rather dire for UAE after losing what was up to then their strongest moutain domestique.
What happened then? Bjerg suddenly showed a climbing level completely at odds with what he had shown before or would show after that day, channeling an improved 2008 Cancellara (He dropped most of the Top 10 and reeled the break all by himself over Hourquette d'Ancizan and Val Louron).
Mc Nulty then took over and dropped everyone bar Pogacar and Vingegaard and proceeded to pull them up to the final wall of Peyragudes, putting over 2' into Thomas. Slightly less insane than Bjerg at the time, but still a few level above his past and future performance.
I remeber thinking at the time "it can't get much more obvious than this, either they dropped a bloog bag or they have another way to do blood boosting on a chosen day".

Ah yes that stage was won by Pogacar but Vingegaard matched him finishing on equal time. Vingegaard was still the strongest that day despite everything thrown at him by Pog and UAE.

 

[Red Rick]

Okay. But that raises the question why no journalist anywhere has bothered to seriously look into Pogacar or Gianetti? We know heavy doping occurs in other bigger professional sports but the competition is still considered fair.

I am only asking questions here wanting the truth. The Clinic is full of unsubstantiated conspiracy theories and groupthink. That is kind of why the Clinic exists but people also want to enjoy following racing knowing it is a fair fight.

IMO, much of these theories seem motivated by which rival riders or teams people follow rather than genuine concern for the sport or fair competition? We all have our favorites but when your rider beats mine it must be an unfair doping advantage. I suppose at least for now motors have gone quiet

There's some mild comments about Gianetti, but the fact that it's not a huge deal is already a complete joke.

For me it's as simple as everybody is mostly benefitted by the status quo, cycling is doing better publicity wise than it did in the 2010s and 2000s and 1990s, actual fairness be damned. I also have 0 doubt that if you started making any real noise it would not be good for your standing in the cycling community.

 

[aphronesis]

Okay. But that raises the question why no journalist anywhere has bothered to seriously look into Pogacar or Gianetti? We know heavy doping occurs in other bigger professional sports but the competition is still considered fair.

I am only asking questions here wanting the truth. The Clinic is full of unsubstantiated conspiracy theories and groupthink. That is kind of why the Clinic exists but people also want to enjoy following racing knowing it is a fair fight.

IMO, much of these theories seem motivated by which rival riders or teams people follow rather than genuine concern for the sport or fair competition? We all have our favorites but when your rider beats mine it must be an unfair doping advantage. I suppose at least for now motors have gone quiet

I’ve asked you this before, but what does any journalist have to gain by pushing on Pogacar/Gianetti? Who and where? Whose windmill is that?

 

[Cookster15]

I’ve asked you this before, but what does any journalist have to gain by pushing on Pogacar/Gianetti? Who and where? Whose windmill is that?

Apologies if I overlooked. There are thousands of journalists in the world and the WWW means they can all do the investigations. It only takes one. What did David Walsh have to gain by pushing on Armstrong? To me at the time Walsh was public enemy number 1. Many (not all) cycling fans back then felt similarly.

 

[aphronesis]

Apologies if I overlooked. There are thousands of journalists in the world and the WWW means they can all do the investigations. It only takes one. What did David Walsh have to gain by pushing on Armstrong? To me at the time Walsh was public enemy number 1. Many (not all) cycling fans back then felt similarly.

Walsh was years ago. A predigital/virtual career. That has to and does (arguably) matter in terms of ethics, values, etc.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Ah yes that stage was won by Pogacar but Vingegaard matched him finishing on equal time. Vingegaard was still the strongest that day despite everything thrown at him by Pog and UAE.

You don't find the sudden improvement of Bjerg and McNulty suspicious as all hell? Vingegaard could have won the stage and it would barely have changed the equation.

 

[Cookster15]

You don't find the sudden improvement of Bjerg and McNulty suspicious as all hell? Vingegaard could have won the stage and it would barely have changed the equation.

Yes of course. I totally get that. But Vingegaard finished on equal time. Was as good as a win to him defending yellow.

You don't find it equally strange the sudden improvement of Vingegaard in 2022 and the fact he countered all the combined efforts to unseat him by Pogacar, Bjerg and McNulty? To me that day was just another instalment of the Visma-UAE arms race. Since 2024 its looking like Gianetti is the victor although Jonas has started this season scary strong building form earlier for the Giro.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Yes of course. I totally get that. But Vingegaard finished on equal time. Was as good as a win to him defending yellow.

You don't find it equally strange the sudden improvement of Vingegaard in 2022 and the fact he countered all the combined efforts to unseat him by Pogacar, Bjerg and McNulty? To me that day was just another instalment of the Visma-UAE arms race. Since 2024 its looking like Gianetti is the victor although Jonas has started this season scary strong building form earlier for the Giro.

Vingegaard is fishy as hell, you'll get no objections from me here. But only UAE had this sort of silly one time boost, Bjerg had no business being in the position he was that day, riders like Van Aert were ridiculous during the whole race except for a few less exceptional days, that was something else.

But i'm sorry you're kinda contradicting yourself here, upthread your position seems to be that Pogacar/UAE don't have any doping advantage compared to other teams, and here you're saying that Gianetti his winning the arm race since 2024. Which is it?

For the record i don't have a problem with your position, you're perfectly entitled to it and at least we agree that something is going on.

 

[Cookster15]

For the record i don't have a problem with your position, you're perfectly entitled to it and at least we agree that something is going on.

Just conceding the contrarian point but then asking further questions. Hopefully I can spend more time in PRR forum in the days ahead and not just as a mod