Is Walsh on the Sky bandwagon?

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If you're compromised to the point of being a sellout, you don't get the message out at all.
That's silly. You have to work with the assumption that such a story will break out regardless of what you do. And that's without even mentioning that the Leinders story had already broken out thanks to De Rooy.
 
Mar 25, 2013
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hrotha said:
That's silly. You have to work with the assumption that such a story will break out regardless of what you do. And that's without even mentioning that the Leinders story had already broken out thanks to De Rooy.
Benotti, said the story on Leinders and Froome, Porte and motoman was to control the message. The story wouldn't be reported first on their part if they were compromised on it, particularly the one with motoman. They would have sat on it and had a more reactional journalism to it with others reporting it first. In the end, I didn't see any other British media outlet write or report on that.
 
May 26, 2010
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gooner said:
If you're compromised to the point of being a sellout, you don't get the message out at all.
Walsh is being fed the stories. He is by his choice it seems take taking a very soft line on Sky. If he took the Kimmage stance no doubt he would be off cycling in the ST or out of a job.


gooner said:
Everything changed after de Rooy's comments. Just because he exposed the Ferrari link to Lance doesn't mean he's capable of doing it with everyone else. It's not as simple as that.
Actually he got tipped off about Ferrari, that was easy, he didn't need to be tipped off about Leinders, guys name was on the team website. A bit of due diligence would've led him to Rabo during the years of Rasmussen et al.


gooner said:
I don't know, just like you don't either for certain. There is still a cloud over it. What I don't accept is Walsh hasn't questioned it or addressed it in his articles.
I dont accept that Walsh has dug deep enough into Sky. He swanned around with them, but they had advance notice of his arrival. Sky have had time to prep everyone for interviews etc.

gooner said:
You made the comparison with Ferrari/Lance and Wiggins/Froome/Leinders, not me. See below.
Walsh wrote six pages addressing Armstrong coming from 6 minutes behind Indurain in previous TTs to putting a 1minute into Zulle(world TT champ) and 2+ into others. He also addressed Armstrong's bullying of Bassons and then the Ferrari connection. So it wasn't 6 pages on Ferrari but the similarities can be made.

Riders from grupetto to podiums, change of stance on doping and working with a doping doctor. Did Walsh address these with the same due diligence as he did with Armstrong, no is the simple answer.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Digger said:
Re: Leinders...it stil shocks me how easy it was to find out the truth before last summer...I heard about Leinders before last summer 2012. Just out of curiosity I googled him...and there it was, a mention in an autobiography of a rider from Rabobank as far as I remember...Leinders used to measure his HCT after EPO.
So I agree with people here...for Sky to claim ignorance here is ridiculous.
I am not disputing that Sky didn't know, but Walsh (who this is all about) is not in a position to dispute what they say unless he knows for sure that they lied.

bianchigirl said:
Dr M, if everyone in cycling knew about Armstrong's past, why was it a big deal whe it finally broke? Personally would have everyone who's connected with the sport who is 'shocked' by revelations of doping thrown out on their ear as either too delicate or total hypocrites.
Not sure if this is a strawman or starwwoman. Either way, I certainly would never claim that everyone knows something.

And again, this is totally irrelevant to Walsh.
 
May 26, 2010
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gooner said:
I'm not disputing what Leinders did. My point was in response to why Walsh had a 6 page write up in regards to Ferrari/Lance. The association was different as the link was kept secret from the public. Ferrari wasn't publicly on the USPS payroll in the same way Leinders was at Sky. Ferrari wasn't turning up to races with USPS gear on. That's why it was a big story at the time and why it covered many pages with Walsh disclosing the dates of when Lance visited him.

Leinders was more a Del Moral or Celaya figure at Rabobank but no way did he have the influence with riders across many teams over the years that Ferrari had. USPS/Lance still felt the need to work with Ferrari even when those two were on the payroll. This should tell you all you need to know about the impact of Ferrari in comparison to the others already named. That still doesn't make things better, Leinders still should be out of the sport.
Del Moral or Celaya received lifetime bans from sport. So to compare Leinders to these 2 is not showing us that Sky are clean, far from it.
 

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sniper said:
could gooner and dr. mas address the points raised here by Dear Wiggo?

excellent post, Dear Wiggo. I'd go as far as to say the "theory" spin is plain evidence of the fact that David Walsh is a sell out.
You couldn't come up with such a spin by accident.
Especially if you realize that in essense Walsh is a quality thinker and journo, then you cannot claim that this is an accidental slip of the tongue by him. Clearly it's deliberate spin.

Indeed, striking how Freeman's "theory" conflicts with Brailsford's bilhardzia 'theory', and even more striking to see how Walsh swallows it uncritically and even gives it his own spin (by deliberately calling Freeman's story a "theory").


superpost, flanders.
there really is little room for doubt.

gooner? dr. mas?
crickets...
I would be delighted to sniper.

Just one point - before I turn on the fan, you go about the "theory" spin. Can you point out where in the article that Walsh wrote does he mention this.
Thanks.
 
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Benotti69 said:
Del Moral or Celaya received lifetime bans from sport. So to compare Leinders to these 2 is not showing us that Sky are clean, far from it.
I said he should be out of the sport for his past at Rabo. That goes for all his ilk.

I never said Sky are clean.
 
May 26, 2010
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gooner said:
I said he should be out of the sport for his past at Rabo. That goes for all his ilk.
Sky hired him for doping reasons, no two ways about it. That Walsh is not going to pursue it is despicable after all the good work he did on Armstrong, Stephen Roche, Michelle Smith...........
 
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Benotti69 said:
Sky hired him for doping reasons, no two ways about it. That Walsh is not going to pursue it is despicable after all the good work he did on Armstrong, Stephen Roche, Michelle Smith...........
Armstrong with his positive, bullying of Bassons and Del Moral dumping of syringes. Roche he travelled to Italy for a week and got documentation that he took EPO in his last year as a pro under Conconi. That was after the story broke in the Italian media first. Smith had her husband who was a convicted doper as her coach who transformed her physique hugely after the Barca Olympics. A blind man could see she was doping. She was built like a Rugby League player. She never stopped working with him even with this cloud hanging over her. If this was still the case with Leinders now, Walsh would be right on their case.
 

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Benotti69 said:
If you get the message out first you control that message. Simple Goebbels 101.
Yet Sky did not get their message out first.

Indeed they could have put it on their website or Brailsford could give a lengthily quote spinning it that JTL was suspended because Sky have a "strict ZPT " and that they were shocked but delighted that it was all before he was part of the team and they acted swiftly as soon as they knew.

Walsh broke it, with the weak comment from Brailsford.


Benotti69 said:
See above.



If Leinders was common knowledge what took Walsh so long to point out that Sky hired a doping doctor?

How do you know what the influence of Leinders was at Sky? Ferrari's reputation is backed by a lot GT wins. Of course his rep is not higher than Ferraris, but that does not lessen that a 'clean' team hired a doping doctor.

Just because Ferrari is the better PED doc does not matter in this equation. If you hire a doping doc in cycling there is only 1 reason, to enable doping. Whether he gets you the Ferrari levels of influence is neither here nor there as we are not discussing how many wins, doping is doping is doping.
Regardless of what Leinders did (or did not) do at Sky - what he did at Rabo certainly was not "common knowledge" before de Rooy.
 
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gooner said:
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Sniper, remember this from yesterday when you were throwing your weight around having a go at Walsh without reading the article. Just to refresh your memory, Walsh reference the l'Equipe article with extracts from it.

Would you care to retract your statement now?

Tongue tied maybe.
i knew he referenced it. i wasn't saying he hadn't.
my point was that we must assume he hadn't read it when it came out.
if he had, it should have bveen a red flag to walsh waaaay before yesterday's piece. (red flag both wrt JTL himself and wrt Sky hiring him.)
so either walsh didn't read the piece when it came out, or he read it but chose to ignore it.
 
May 26, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Yet Sky did not get their message out first.

Indeed they could have put it on their website or Brailsford could give a lengthily quote spinning it that JTL was suspended because Sky have a "strict ZPT " and that they were shocked but delighted that it was all before he was part of the team and they acted swiftly as soon as they knew.

Walsh broke it, with the weak comment from Brailsford.
In my humble opinion to get the message out via their own website is not as credible as Walsh.

Dr. Maserati said:
Regardless of what Leinders did (or did not) do at Sky - it certainly was not "common knowledge" before de Rooy.
It was 'common knowledge' in cycling circles if he was at races wearing sky clothes and he was named on their website. That no one picked up on it is probably down to the Landis revelations in the Armstrong story, which has the cycling and sport medias eyes turned to.
 
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Benotti69 said:
I think Sky are either ahead of the other teams in doping, being able to maximise PEDS better than others with riders that respond the best to those PEDS or they have paid for people to turn a blind eye to their doping.

But Leinders worked for Sky from 2010 to 2012, they won the TdF in 2012, hardly uninstrumental when we know how important Docs are to teams.

Wiggans and Froome were grupetto fodder. We know that Ferrari was/is still working with riders yet Sky beat his clients. Was it Leinders? I dont know.

Does Leinders still work for Sky? Why not? It is not like there are the cyclingequivalent of the KGB following these guys. The Italians seem to have some who care to catch the riders doping.

But to answer your question, Ferrari has more GT wins to his 'credit' than Leinders. So Ferrari more instrumental, but Leinders is an important part of Sky's story and to try and dismiss him because he is not Ferrari does not wash with me.

Sky stated they would not touch these doctors with barge poles, Wiggins is on record as stating teams should be thrown out of races if there is a 1% chance of a team working with a Leinders.

Leinders is not a small fish. He ran Rabos program.

Walsh has not done his journalist work on Leinders or Sky.
Leinders did not run Rabo's program, he administered it, which is why their riders went to Humanplasma. Leinders is not the guy you hire to design and run a modern program.

While it is fun to obsess over Leinders the fact is he had already been fired by the time Walsh was embedded with the team. His story has been covered over and over in dozens of media outlets. I would prefer that Walsh focus on finding who is actually designing the modern program that is enabling riders to peak all season, stay crazy skinny, and not trip the Bio-Passport. Sorry, Leinders is not the guy that does this.
 
Race Radio said:
While it is fun to obsess over Leinders the fact is he had already been fired by the time Walsh was embedded with the team. His story has been covered over and over in dozens of media outlets. I would prefer that Walsh focus on finding who is actually designing the modern program that is enabling riders to peak all season, stay crazy skinny, and not trip the Bio-Passport. Sorry, Leinders is not the guy that does this.
But Leinders would be a fine way to catch Brailsford in a blatant contradiction regarding Sky's stated policy and its actual practices.
 

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Benotti69 said:
In my humble opinion to get the message out via their own website is not as credible as Walsh.
Sky didn't get their message out.
If they had someone would have gone on record and spun the story.

And the are plenty of British publications who would have covered any news release or comment word for word without following up.

Benotti69 said:
It was 'common knowledge' in cycling circles if he was at races wearing sky clothes and he was named on their website. That no one picked up on it is probably down to the Landis revelations in the Armstrong story, which has the cycling and sport medias eyes turned to.
What?
Either Leinders being dodgy before he was neared by de Rooy was common knowledge or it wasn't.
Which is it?
 
May 26, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Leinders did not run Rabo's program, he administered it, which is why their riders went to Humanplasma. Leinders is not the guy you hire to design and run a modern program.

While it is fun to obsess over Leinders the fact is he had already been fired by the time Walsh was embedded with the team. His story has been covered over and over in dozens of media outlets. I would prefer that Walsh focus on finding who is actually designing the modern program that is enabling riders to peak all season, stay crazy skinny, and not trip the Bio-Passport. Sorry, Leinders is not the guy that does this.
Leinders was hired to 'administer' doping. Great. So that should be enough for Walsh to dig deeper into it while also looking for the people who designed the super skinny super strong super recovery beating the BP program.

As this is the Walsh thread and we know his months spent supposedly looking at Sky to not address it fully is not on.

Yes i would like to see Sky busted and find out who the super skinny super strong super recovery beating the BP program doc is but i also believe Leinders was involved in doping at Sky. Maybe until Sky or a rider gets busted at Sky we will not find out so bust them.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Leinders did not run Rabo's program, he administered it, which is why their riders went to Humanplasma. Leinders is not the guy you hire to design and run a modern program.

While it is fun to obsess over Leinders the fact is he had already been fired by the time Walsh was embedded with the team. His story has been covered over and over in dozens of media outlets. I would prefer that Walsh focus on finding who is actually designing the modern program that is enabling riders to peak all season, stay crazy skinny, and not trip the Bio-Passport. Sorry, Leinders is not the guy that does this.
while this might be true, i don't see how it is relevant to the discussion in this thread.

the hiring of leinders by a zero tolerance team should have raised an eyebrow or two. yet walsh trivializes the matter and doesn't let it interfere with his blind faith in team sky.
big fail, and the exact nature of leinders at rabo (supplier or just administrator) is completely irrelevant here.

hrotha said:
But Leinders would be a fine way to catch Brailsford in a blatant contradiction regarding Sky's stated policy and its actual practices.
this
 

Dr. Maserati

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Benotti69 said:
Leinders was hired to 'administer' doping. Great. So that should be enough for Walsh to dig deeper into it while also looking for the people who designed the super skinny super strong super recovery beating the BP program.

As this is the Walsh thread and we know his months spent supposedly looking at Sky to not address it fully is not on.

Yes i would like to see Sky busted and find out who the super skinny super strong super recovery beating the BP program doc is but i also believe Leinders was involved in doping at Sky. Maybe until Sky or a rider gets busted at Sky we will not find out so bust them.
Sure, I do to.
But unless you have something more than your opinion then you cannot state it as a fact.

Which gets us back to Walsh, he is not anonymous and his every word is subject to legal scrutiny - so he can only ask and record what Sky say they did or odd not know, which to the blue is exactly what he has done.
Why do you keep ignoring this?
 
Dr. Maserati said:
Sure, I do to.
But unless you have something more than your opinion then you cannot state it as a fact.

Which gets us back to Walsh, he is not anonymous and his every word is subject to legal scrutiny - so he can only ask and record what Sky say they did or odd not know, which to the blue is exactly what he has done.
Why do you keep ignoring this?
And why do you keep ignoring that Walsh chose to word some things as fact rather than as what Sky claims is their policy? Because that's the crux of the matter, and what makes Walsh look soft and unquestioning.
 
Mar 25, 2013
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sniper said:
i knew he referenced it. i wasn't saying he hadn't.
my point was that we must assume he hadn't read it when it came out.
if he had, it should have bveen a red flag to walsh waaaay before yesterday's piece. (red flag both wrt JTL himself and wrt Sky hiring him.)
so either walsh didn't read the piece when it came out, or he read it but chose to ignore it.
No you didn't know he referenced it because you admitted just after that you didn't read the article when the Dr. pulled you up on it. Here.

So will you take back your criticism of Walsh where you said he wouldn't address the l'Equipe piece?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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gooner said:
Armstrong with his positive, bullying of Bassons and Del Moral dumping of syringes. Roche he travelled to Italy for a week and got documentation that he took EPO in his last year as a pro under Conconi. That was after the story broke in the Italian media first. Smith had her husband who was a convicted doper as her coach who transformed her physique hugely after the Barca Olympics. A blind man could see she was doping. She was built like a Rugby League player. She never stopped working with him even with this cloud hanging over her. If this was still the case with Leinders now, Walsh would be right on their case.
it should also be obvious, both to you and to walsh, that teams who want to cheat in these days will be waaaaaaay more careful than usps ever was.
The lack of syringes in the dustbin are really no excuse for walsh to jump on the bandwagon and do a whole lot of PR for Sky.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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hrotha said:
But Leinders would be a fine way to catch Brailsford in a blatant contradiction regarding Sky's stated policy and its actual practices.
Absolutely agree. While Walsh has covered these contradictions (Yates, Julich, Using Garmin tests for JTL) he has not made it a central theme of his work, as many here would like.

While it is fun to obsess over these contradictions none are the smoking gun we are looking for. By 2000 I knew the following about Armstrong and USPS

The Hospital room
The Cortisone positive, that Julian DeVries said involved a payoff
Chris Charmichel lawsuit for doping riders
The video of team staff dumping drugs and hundreds of syringes.
The commercial attachments with Verbruggen
the 15% increase in output
Bullying riders who spoke out against doping
Working with Ferrari, the most advanced and notorious doping doctor in the sport
Former riders telling me that USPS was "science experiment"

It is fun to pretend that the same level of evidence is available for Sky and Walsh is ignoring it.......but we all know that is not the case
 

Dr. Maserati

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hrotha said:
And why do you keep ignoring that Walsh chose to word some things as fact rather than as what Sky claims is their policy? Because that's the crux of the matter, and what makes Walsh look soft and unquestioning.
Is this the "vanguard of anti-doping' line (which is meaningless) and then he goes on to show all the times they screwed up their own policy?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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gooner said:
No you didn't know he referenced it because you admitted just after that you didn't read the article yet when the Dr. pulled you up on it. Here.

So will you take back your criticism of Walsh where you said he wouldn't address the l'Equipe piece?
big fail.
the lequipe thing was in the summarized part that i had in fact read.

if you know my history of posting you know i'm not too stubborn or proud to say i missed something (unlike a certain doc here).
in this case i meant what i say i meant.
wanna respond to that? had walsh read the lequipe article when it came out? or only after uci's letter to JTL?:rolleyes:
 

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sniper said:
big fail.
the lequipe thing was in the summarized part that i had in fact read.

if you know my history of posting you know i'm not too stubborn or proud to say i missed something (unlike a certain doc here).
in this case i meant what i say i meant.
wanna respond to that? had walsh read the lequipe article when it came out? or only after uci's letter to JTL?:rolleyes:
Don't you dare......
 

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