Is Walsh on the Sky bandwagon?

[pmcg76]

Didn't Lemond himself makes comments about a mitochondrial problem he suffered from? I seem to recall this being related to his poor health, and then the doped peloton accelerating the decline ...

Bingo. I would consider myself a backer of LeMond but the story changed over time from being more about his decling health to then more about the arrival of EPO because of course that makes LeMond look better.

 

[bobbins]

Maybe that is true as DeWolf was definitely an unlikely winner of L-B-L, I don't disagree with that but that is a rumour for sure.

Rumour has it that win cost Gatortade a shed load of money.

 

[hrotha]

Bingo. I would consider myself a backer of LeMond but the story changed over time from being more about his decling health to then more about the arrival of EPO because of course that makes LeMond look better.

Or because he had a better understanding of just how game-changing EPO was.

Personally I think LeMond overtrained himself into unhealthiness trying to catch up to the EPO users.

 

[Benotti69]

You see that is what is ridiculous, nobody related to pro cycling is to be trusted according to you. That is just pure irrational thinking and illogical.

Can you point to the majority in the sport who can be trusted?

Talk about irrational and illogical. This sport has had a doping (cheating) culture since its inception. There have been some who have decided not to cheat but the majority have always cheated, hence the omerta.

Logic dictates that one asks how and when and more importantly why, if true, did the sport decided that this culture was not to be followed.

You believe every single pro riders dope, I am sure the guys who post here would be very offended at that idea. None of them ride at a high level but they know people who have.

I believe the majority dope. It is the culture. In a small sport like cycling riders who go against the flow are ostracised, like Bassons.

When did the peloton ever say when a guy gets popped, I hope he leaves the sport or if he wants to come back he tells all to his ADA and names names so we can be rid of those involved? Never, even JV advised Floyd not to name anyone.

So take that logic and tell me how the sport changed its doping culture. Speeds are up. TdF this year TdF faster than recent tours. JV claimed speeds were down hence cleanER peloton. Yeah.

Logic says that in order to change a culture it takes a monumental moment, where the majority realise the need to change. Point to where it happened. It almost happened in 1998, but those in charge didn't care to change it then when did they change their idea? McQuaid only left the fold last september!

 

[86TDFWinner]

Definitely the increase of EPO usage excelerated the decline of LeMond but he was already struggling with his health by 92. C'mon, he won DuPont in May 92, finished just outside the Top 10 at Dauphine, 4th at Switzerland and then outside the time limit at the Tour. That is not normal at all and not down to EPO.

LeMond said sometimes he felt great and then next thing he felt powerless. I think health was his biggest downfall

I agree with what you said, I think Greg realized once he was getting beat by guys who years earlier he was crushing, the writing was on the wall pretty much for him at that point. In '94, his health, and doping became such big factors, that he couldn't even finish races he'd dominated years earlier. I also think Hrotha had it right, in that he feels(as I do), that LeMond "overtrained" to compete with the dopers.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Sky will go 1, 2, 3 at the TdF this year...this is what the new clean cycling looks like people. It is completely normal. Nothing to see. You can trust Walsh. He was with these guys during every dump, and every closed door session with the ladies. There is no chance that they doped. None. This is what pure talent looks like people.

 

[oldcrank]

...You can trust Walsh...

I agree, my friend, but the Armstrong fans who tried to discredit
Mr. Walsh previously (and we all know how that went) are back,
and now they are bitter. Very, very bitter.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

I agree, my friend, but the Armstrong fans who tried to discredit
Mr. Walsh previously (and we all know how that went) are back,
and now they are bitter. Very, very bitter.

The War on Walsh.

The Armstrong army.

Lets instead evaluate the next piece of material Walsh delivers.

 

[blackcat]

JV has clearly stated he spends half a mill on internal testing. I think it is to keep his guys doping under the radar, but Wiggins and Hesjedal had bogus numbers in GTs in the 3rd week which JV conveniently blamed on blood machine reading errors.

yeah, that was the FAIL. whenever he confirmation biased numbers he did not like as "calibration errors".

well, what is the point of testing, when errors that seem out of whack, can be written off as calibration errors. Like Enrons liabilities, they teach you that at UoDenver MBA school

 

[blackcat]

JV has clearly stated he spends half a mill on internal testing. I think it is to keep his guys doping under the radar, but Wiggins and Hesjedal had bogus numbers in GTs in the 3rd week which JV conveniently blamed on blood machine reading errors.

I think the half a mill serves numerous objectives, indeed, some of then conflicting. think iraq and afghanistan, the motives are revised and incoherent.


lets name the various motivations, and they will have various degrees in the 100% gestalt

i) keeping his team off dope and discouraging them from trying: 20%?
ii) making sure his team do not test positive when they do dope: ~20% (yeah, appreciate conflict with (i)
iii) getting them to be judicious with marginal gains doping> <sarcasm> (yeah, appreciate conflict with (i) ~30%?
iv) PR and Marketing, the new Clean epoch, bad times behind us ~10%
v) securing his business ~ few percent in risk management coefficient
other motives ~20% (add your own)

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I agree, my friend, but the Armstrong fans who tried to discredit
Mr. Walsh previously (and we all know how that went) are back,
and now they are bitter. Very, very bitter.

Do you think Michelle and Chris let him get a taste of their action?

 

[blackcat]

I agree, my friend, but the Armstrong fans who tried to discredit
Mr. Walsh previously (and we all know how that went) are back,
and now they are bitter. Very, very bitter.

Chris H? House? Hombre/Bobke?

 

[noddy69]

Definitely the increase of EPO usage excelerated the decline of LeMond but he was already struggling with his health by 92. C'mon, he won DuPont in May 92, finished just outside the Top 10 at Dauphine, 4th at Switzerland and then outside the time limit at the Tour. That is not normal at all and not down to EPO.

LeMond said sometimes he felt great and then next thing he felt powerless. I think health was his biggest downfall

So he could compete early in the season and it started to go downhill from there in 92. He felt the year before he was in good form coming to the tour and when it got to the mountains he couldn't do anything.
People ramping up there doping in 91 nearer the tour as it was new the same in 92 as they were learning the ropes and then it explodes on the scene into 93 and Le Monde is gone.......that could also explain it surely?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So he could compete early in the season and it started to go downhill from there in 92. He felt the year before he was in good form coming to the tour and when it got to the mountains he couldn't do anything.
People ramping up there doping in 91 nearer the tour as it was new the same in 92 as they were learning the ropes and then it explodes on the scene into 93 and Le Monde is gone.......that could also explain it surely?

Would be interesting to see the prices of EPO during that time vs now. Typically it starts expensive and then comes down in price as competition and commoditisation (?) increases. So to my mind it makes more sense you'd have more judicious use of EPO in the earlier years (ie focused around the goal race) vs later years where it's cheaper and you can afford to train with it, etc.

Just a theory.

Regardless (or should that be irregardless ) what you're suggesting makes sense.

 

[pmcg76]

So he could compete early in the season and it started to go downhill from there in 92. He felt the year before he was in good form coming to the tour and when it got to the mountains he couldn't do anything.
People ramping up there doping in 91 nearer the tour as it was new the same in 92 as they were learning the ropes and then it explodes on the scene into 93 and Le Monde is gone.......that could also explain it surely?

Going from 4th in The Tour of Switzerland which was held in mid June to finishing outside the Time Cut at the Tour barely 4 weeks later is down to more than just doping. That would require almost everyone at the Tour to be using EPO except LeMond, you think Van Poppel was taking EPO and that made him as good as LeMond was in top form in the mountains???

Even guys who are viewed as major beneficiaries of doping, Riis or even Froome if you want, never underwent an improvement as big as LeMond's sudden drop in 92.

 

[pmcg76]

Or because he had a better understanding of just how game-changing EPO was.

Personally I think LeMond overtrained himself into unhealthiness trying to catch up to the EPO users.

Well I know that LeMond has gone on record as saying that Adrie Van Diemen(who is also Dan Martin's trainer) was the best coach he ever had, LeMond worked with Van Diemen at the end of his career.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Even guys who are viewed as major beneficiaries of doping, Riis or even Froome if you want, never underwent an improvement as big as LeMond's sudden drop in 92.

I recall guys like Delion and Philipot going backwards as well around that time.

edit: Tony Rominger winning the Vuelta in 1992, Delgado climbing only four minutes faster on Luz Ardiden in comparison to 1990

etc etc

 

[pmcg76]

I recall guys like Delion and Philipot going backwards as well around that time.

edit: Tony Rominger winning the Vuelta in 1992, Delgado climbing only four minutes faster on Luz Ardiden in comparison to 1990

etc etc

Delion won a stage 92 Tour and dropped from 21st in 91 to 58th on GC. LeMond dropped from Top 10 to missing the time-cut. Philipot was with Banesto who of course were riding for a certain rider. As I said, LeMonds decline in 92 would have needed the entire peloton to have shifted to EPO in the space of a month.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Delion won a stage 92 Tour and dropped from 21st in 91 to 58th on GC. LeMond dropped from Top 10 to missing the time-cut. Philipot was with Banesto who of course were riding for a certain rider. As I said, LeMonds decline in 92 would have needed the entire peloton to have shifted to EPO in the space of a month.

Who is saying the whole peloton? I will take Eric Boyer's word for it over yours though:

http://lagrandeboucle.com/article.php3?id_article=454
[scroll down]

Yes, LeMond had problems with recuperation in 1992, 1993, 1994, as stated by van Diemen in 1994. IT also didnt help him riding against epo mules.

 

[pmcg76]

Who is saying the whole peloton? I will take Eric Boyer's word for it over yours though:

http://lagrandeboucle.com/article.php3?id_article=454
[scroll down]

Yes, LeMond had problems with recuperation in 1992, 1993, 1994, as stated by van Diemen in 1994. IT also didnt help him riding against epo mules.

When did I ever say there were no riders on EPO in 92!!! Absolutely there were guys on EPO for sure in 92. But for LeMond to be riding at the level of the sprinters in the mountains means that either something was wrong with him or the sprinters has somehow managed to come up to his level re EPO.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Chris H? House? Hombre/Bobke?

what?


desubaru?


apparently the only peeps who think D.Walsh is on the bandwagon is the peeps who had the hard on's for juan pelota. Who knew?

2 separate issues in my opinion. Both are trains of a different color.

 

[BroDeal]

apparently the only peeps who think D.Walsh is on the bandwagon is the peeps who had the hard on's for juan pelota. Who knew?

2 separate issues in my opinion. Both are trains of a different color.

Nope. According to Walsh the people who question him and Sky are disappointed Armstrong faithful. It never occurred to him that the same people who called out Armstrong's obvious doping are the ones calling out Sky's obvious doping.

 

[the sceptic]

Jonathan Alford ‏@yidarmy23

Half way through 'Inside Team Sky' by @DavidWalshST Great read #teamsky are without a doubt the most advanced team in sport #brailsford

David Walsh ‏@DavidWalshST

@yidarmy23 Jonathan, I pretty much agree. Thanks for reading the book.

Since Walsh broke the JTL story, this must be true.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

When did I ever say there were no riders on EPO in 92!!! Absolutely there were guys on EPO for sure in 92. But for LeMond to be riding at the level of the sprinters in the mountains means that either something was wrong with him or the sprinters has somehow managed to come up to his level re EPO.

Yes, there was something wrong with LeMond, and with Delion and with some other riders. Yet in 1992 LeMond should have been able to cope with the epo mules in 92.

 

[Benotti69]

Since Walsh broke the JTL story, this must be true.

Walsh agrees as he has spent time with all the other teams so he sure knows what he is talking about, Sky are way ahead, pineapple juice in the water bidons and dry mechanics ahead.........