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IT'S OFFICIAL: Contador is Astana's leader

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Jun 8, 2009
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Does no body remember how Carlos Sastre won the tour last year. I don't think that anyone would of thought he was the team leader until he won that stage. Maybe Astana could be doing the same.
 
Apr 1, 2009
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redrocket said:
Does no body remember how Carlos Sastre won the tour last year. I don't think that anyone would of thought he was the team leader until he won that stage. Maybe Astana could be doing the same.

Exactly. The ploy of having Sastre go back for drinks completely threw lots of people off the scent.
 

whiteboytrash

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Mar 17, 2009
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patswana said:
Exactly. The ploy of having Sastre go back for drinks completely threw lots of people off the scent.

For the last time Sastre never ever ever ever went back for drinks at last years Tour. Why does this story propagate ?
 
Apr 1, 2009
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whiteboytrash said:
No you didn't. He was getting water for himself only and talking to his DS. Stop the lying. Now. End of story.

The knife cuts deep. He must have had a huge thirst if all those bottles were for himself.
 

whiteboytrash

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patswana said:
The knife cuts deep. He must have had a huge thirst if all those bottles were for himself.

Until you provide the link with pictures it will just remain in the realm of internet fantasy. Stop making this stuff up in vain attempt to impress people. It’s not working.

Game, set, match WBT !! :p:p:p
___

To prove I’m right (as always) I ran a script through the text updates from EuroSport and Cyclingnews on the terms “water”, “bottles”, “bidon” and each of the CSC team at last years Tour and not once does it say Sastre collecting water bottles for his team.

What we had was 9 million entries such as this:

The indefatigable Cancellara is back on the front (!) brandishing water bottles for his team-mates. Incredible effort by him...

Schleck junior peels off the back to pick up some more water. He looks so composed. Surely a Tour champion for the future?

Andy Schleck, the white jersey, drops back to do a water run for CSC. He was outstanding yesterday - maybe we wants to join his brother in the annals of the race and win a stage atop Alpe d'Huez?
 

whiteboytrash

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Good post WBT. Thanks for the update. You really seem to know your stuff. Thanks again.

whiteboytrash said:
Until you provide the link with pictures it will just remain in the realm of internet fantasy. Stop making this stuff up in vain attempt to impress people. It’s not working.

Game, set, match WBT !! :p:p:p
___

To prove I’m right (as always) I ran a script through the text updates from EuroSport and Cyclingnews on the terms “water”, “bottles”, “bideon” and each of the CSC team at last years Tour and not once does it say Sastre collecting water bottles for his team.

What we had was 9 million entries such as this:

The indefatigable Cancellara is back on the front (!) brandishing water bottles for his team-mates. Incredible effort by him...

Schleck junior peels off the back to pick up some more water. He looks so composed. Surely a Tour champion for the future?

Andy Schleck, the white jersey, drops back to do a water run for CSC. He was outstanding yesterday - maybe we wants to join his brother in the annals of the race and win a stage atop Alpe d'Huez?
 
Apr 1, 2009
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whiteboytrash said:
Until you provide the link with pictures it will just remain in the realm of internet fantasy. Stop making this stuff up in vain attempt to impress people. It’s not working.

Game, set, match WBT !! :p:p:p
___

To prove I’m right (as always) I ran a script through the text updates from EuroSport and Cyclingnews on the terms “water”, “bottles”, “bidon” and each of the CSC team at last years Tour and not once does it say Sastre collecting water bottles for his team.

What we had was 9 million entries such as this:

The indefatigable Cancellara is back on the front (!) brandishing water bottles for his team-mates. Incredible effort by him...

Schleck junior peels off the back to pick up some more water. He looks so composed. Surely a Tour champion for the future?

Andy Schleck, the white jersey, drops back to do a water run for CSC. He was outstanding yesterday - maybe we wants to join his brother in the annals of the race and win a stage atop Alpe d'Huez?

Look, it's great that your life is so complete that you have time to worry about arguing about such earth-shatteringly important trivia and to read all those 9 million entries. But I actually really couldn't care.

I know what I saw and I also know that your facts are about as reliable as your spelling and grammar.

Game over.
 

whiteboytrash

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patswana said:
Look, it's great that your life is so complete that you have time to worry about arguing about such earth-shatteringly important trivia and to read all those 9 million entries. But I actually really couldn't care.

I know what I saw and I also know that your facts are about as reliable as your spelling and grammar.

Game over.

Poor return of serve.

Couldn't find it on youTube ? Ha ha ha ha ha ha !!!!!! :p:p:p:p

If its not so "earth-shatteringly important" then don't write it onto this forum.... ok ? Thank-you. Get your facts straight. You know I'm right.
 
Jun 8, 2009
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Who cares who got the water, I couldnt believe that Sastre won the tour because of one stage. I suppose when u have a quality team with multiple want to be leaders u can play what ever card u want.
 
May 14, 2009
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Sometimes when leaders go to their cars they bring bottles for their team-mates. To draw conclusion of that it's non sense until it's repeated.
 
A

Anonymous

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elapid said:
Scientific investigation has many merits. But not all researchers are created equal and their study designs and methods can be questionable to unethical. This is unusual, but researchers publish papers to report their findings and open their research to critical evaluation, not be accepted without question. One of the hallmarks of a successful study is one that can be repeated with the same results.



I am on the editorial board for three journals and am an ad hoc reviewer for about another six journals. Each paper submitted for publication is reviewed by a minimum of three reviewers. It is amazing the difference in comments from three reviewers reviewing the same paper. It is also amazing that some papers get through the review and editorial process when they clearly should not. Coyle's paper is in the latter category.



Yes. Coyle's paper "Improved muscular efficiency displayed as Tour de France champion matures" was published in the Journal of Applied Physiology in 2005 (98:2191-2196). Coyle states in his abstract that "an improvement in muscular efficiency and reduced body fat contributed equally to a remarkable 18% improvement in his steady-state power per kilogram body weight". I have attached a screen shot of Table 2 from Coyle's paper showing Armstrong's physiologic data from 1992 to 1999.

Picture1-1.png


Table 2 clearly shows that 1. percentage body weight was not measured in November 1999 (so how can Coyle claim reduced body fat contributed to the improvement in steady-state power when he didn't measure percentage body weight); and 2. Armstrong was heavier in both gross and lean body weight in November 1999 than November 1992. So theory #2 to explain Armstrong's "remarkable 18% improvement" is either unsubstantiated or contradicted by Coyle's figures.

Now let's look at this 18% improvement. The paragraph explaining how Coyle made this calculation is attached below and finishes on the following page with "...gram" at a given percentage of VO2 max (eg, 83%) increased by 18%."

Picture2.png


How does he make this calculation? He uses an estimated racing body weight of 72 kg in 1999 and not the measured preseason body weight of 79.7 kg. Why use an unmeasured racing weight to calculate power/weight ratios and compare this to preseason data in 1992 and 1993? That's comparing apples to oranges. The 5.6 power/weight ratio in 1999 = preseason 404W / estimated racing body weight of 72 kg. If Coyle used the measured data for preseason 1999, and not preseason power with an estimated weight during the racing season, then the actual power/weight ratio for his 1999 preseason is 5.07, not 5.6. In comparison, using the data in Table 2, his power/weight ratios in the 1992 and 1993 preseasons were 4.74 and 4.99, respectively. Hence, Armstrong's 1999 preseason power/weight ratio of 5.07 is 7.0% better than 1992 preseason and only 1.6% better than the 1993 preseason.

This is why I say Coyle's methods are BS. He uses data not included in his paper (1999 racing season weight) and then uses racing weights to calculate ratios from preseason data in previous years. For these results to be respectable, Coyle should have compared preseason data for 1992, 1993 and 1999, not estimated racing weight in 1999 to preseason data in 1992 and 1993.

Can you fault me for calling Coyle's research BS when Coyle concludes "reduced body fat contributed equally to a remarkable 18% improvement in his steady-state power per kilogram body weight" despite the fact that body fat was not measured (and body weight was in fact heavier) in 1999 and the 18% improvement is based on completely flawed calculations?

Blast from the past!!

Coyle made available raw data from the January 1993 test..."

Gore et al are not arguing that the study is wrong for the reasons you state.

timing of tests, the inaccuracy of ergometers, a question about the same machines being used, and most importantly, that other reasons could account for the change in performance, like weight and training.

I'm still studing Coyle's reply.

I'm not saying the study is good.

I'm saying if it was wrong for the reasons you claim Gore et all wouldn't have had to jump through all those hoops. They don't even mention what you claim is blatant bad math that wouldn't have got past a jr high math teacher let alone peer review boards.
And they concede that weight and training could account for his performance.

Raw data
 
Thread title

IT'S OFFICIAL: Contador is Astana's leader

Stay with it , forget water bottles & Coyle

"For the first time, you will have to share your status as leader with Alberto Contador in the Astana team. How will you handle this situation?
LA : It is a new scenario for me. Alberto has a lot of talent. He's the best climber in the world. He is ten years younger than me, which is not negligible. But he is still too nervous, too fiery."
 
Jun 18, 2009
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patswana said:
Smoke and mirrors.
Armstrong will be team leader unless something goes wrong for him.

This is Bruyneel's idea of being a 'smart tactician'.

Bruyneel's not stupid. Lose Contador so he can massage LA's ego? For what?

My money says Contador is gone after this season anyways. Bruyneel's tolerance of LA's wet dream has ended Contador's trust in him
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Don't you think Johan Bruyneel is a bit arrogant to say that Sastre, Evans, menchov and Schleck are a step below Contador? Yes that may be true but the strongest rider doesn't nessiscarily win the race. I hope Astana fall flat on their boney arses;)
 
Apr 1, 2009
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richwagmn said:
Bruyneel's not stupid. Lose Contador so he can massage LA's ego? For what?
How much more money would JB make from an Armstrong victory rather than a Contador one? Imagine the movies, the documentaries, the books, the t-shirts they'd sell after an Armstrong victory. Plus who do you think JB loves more?

In addition, Contador & Bruyneel owe Armstrong for saving them from a doping scandal.
Contador won the '08 Giro without even training.
He beat Ricco and Sella, both later found to be CERA users.
Many then called for retrospective testing of the '08 Giro samples.
Guess who would/could have been caught out.
Suddenly the Giro organisers announce:
1. Armstrong will ride the Giro in '09. (massive $$ for them!)
2. No further testing of the '08 samples. (Giro saves face, Dopestana avoids a scandal).

So Contador will be riding for Armstrong... watch this space.
 
Apr 1, 2009
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auscyclefan94 said:
Don't you think Johan Bruyneel is a bit arrogant to say that Sastre, Evans, menchov and Schleck are a step below Contador? Yes that may be true but the strongest rider doesn't nessiscarily win the race. I hope Astana fall flat on their boney arses;)
I already thought he was arrogant but yes, I agree!
But when you are on Dr. Ferrari's best program, you can afford to be arrogant. You've got the best gear and no chance of being caught...

Plus, this is more smoke and mirrors, to try to make the other riders focus too much on Contador, so that Armstrong isn't marked as closely.

Can you imagine Phil Ligget and Paul Sherwen creaming themselves when Armstrong goes on the break while opponents are sticking close to Contador?
 
Jun 16, 2009
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patswana said:
this is more smoke and mirrors, to try to make the other riders focus too much on Contador, so that Armstrong isn't marked as closely.

Can you imagine Phil Ligget and Paul Sherwen creaming themselves when Armstrong goes on the break while opponents are sticking close to Contador?


I agree totally. any talk of Contador is merely Johan's pathetic attempt at diversion so Lance will not be marked as closely. I am hoping the strategy backfires and in the closing weeks maybe we will see the Astana riders choosing up sides like La Vie Claire did in the famous Lemond vs Hinault Tour.
That was like a Soap Opera but this could be just as good, Levi of course would support Lance but some of the others might swing to Contador especially if he is ahead on GC at the time. But you can bet Lance would be stumping hard for Support in the team bus .
this might be a reaaaaaaaaally good tour
 
Jun 18, 2009
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patswana said:
How much more money would JB make from an Armstrong victory rather than a Contador one? Imagine the movies, the documentaries, the books, the t-shirts they'd sell after an Armstrong victory. Plus who do you think JB loves more?

In addition, Contador & Bruyneel owe Armstrong for saving them from a doping scandal.
Contador won the '08 Giro without even training.
He beat Ricco and Sella, both later found to be CERA users.
Many then called for retrospective testing of the '08 Giro samples.
Guess who would/could have been caught out.
Suddenly the Giro organisers announce:
1. Armstrong will ride the Giro in '09. (massive $$ for them!)
2. No further testing of the '08 samples. (Giro saves face, Dopestana avoids a scandal).

So Contador will be riding for Armstrong... watch this space.

Huh? Make money how and where? Europe maybe? Don't know how Armstrong plays in Europe outside of France and Germany (which is badly). In the US cycling is peanuts. One NASCAR race probably makes more than all the Versus cycling events in the US combined in ad revenue. Not sure how an Armstrong victory gets parlayed into big bucks. Hate to say it, but the US doesn't give a flying f*ck about cycling. Too many other big sports here.

Don't know where you got your information about Armstrong saving Contador and Bruyneel. Got a source or link? Why would Armstrong save Contador anyways? He clearly has no use for him.
 
Apr 1, 2009
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richwagmn said:
Huh? Make money how and where?
The movie of Lance's life starring Matthew McConaughey.
The book "written" by Lance. (What will the title be? "It's Not About the Slappers Who Look Like Mummy", "Every Second C.unts", "On a Nut and a Prayer")
The Nike, Oakley, BristolMyersSquibb etc endorsements.

richwagmn said:
Why would Armstrong save Contador anyways? He clearly has no use for him.
Do you think a scandal involving the team for which he had just re-signed would reflect well on Armstrong? It also benefits him for Astana to appear clean.