Jörg Jaksche: Doping, hypocrisy and a dog called Bella

[Benotti69]

I am not denying that there seems to be blacklisting within cycling, just pointing out that some times we, the fans (me included) can be somewhat overly cynical. But as I also wrote, there is a reason for it.

Yeah. Did you watch La Vuelta yesterday! No change.

 

[sniper]

So let me get this straight. A guy your boss is friends with won't fit into the culture of the team. So either your boss or his friends are incompatible with your team culture.

But to the good of you, you weren't the only one who had a character clash with Jorg. And to be objective, he made too many enemies in the peloton.

grooveeyyy. both on the mark.

 

[Walkman]

Yeah. Did you watch La Vuelta yesterday! No change.

I did, however I hasn't seen any power output numbers so I don't know what to make of it just yet.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Guys,
Because he won't fit in and he won't perform well. That's my subjective judgement. Period.
JV

The question remains unanswered. Why?

 

[Dead Star]

He gave us insight in to his thoughts a couple of posts later:

Jorge loved to gossip gossip gossip during his time in the peloton. he loved calling anyone and everyone else a doper. He was always intent on figuring out the new, next best method. He's a very smart guy.

So, quite simply, I don't want that personality on my team.

As for non-performance, Jorge didn't think of himself as a worker, he wanted to be a leader. I didn't think he had the physiological or social qualities to be a leader. Nor did I think he's accept being a worker.

Again, I could be wrong, but those were my judgements at the time.

Reading the above suggests to me he and Joerg didn't get on when both were riding? Just a possibility. We're here to debate after all.

 

[pedaling squares]

My boss pressured me to hire him because they are friends.

So let me get this straight. A guy your boss is friends with won't fit into the culture of the team. So either your boss or his friends are incompatible with your team culture.

Sounds interesting.

And your boss can't pressure you to do things. Chapeau. Or more PR spin?

Well to be fair, there are many similar stories like that throughout sports. Team owner likes a guy, manager paid to run the owner's team thinks the guy will be a cancer in the locker room. Some managers cave, many don't. This could be nothing more than a manager saying he doesn't think the fit on the road or in the bus would be productive.

 

[JV1973]

Yeah. Did you watch La Vuelta yesterday! No change.

NO! Poor assessment, on your part. Andrew Talansky finished approx 1 minute down on the top guys. This over a 40+ minute climb. Talansky's VAM was sub-1600, or around 5.9 w/kg, this would put the leaders at perhaps 1650 VAM and 6.1 w/kg. This is not exceptional. 6.1 w/kg gets you around 15th place in 2001 Tour de France.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

NO! Poor assessment, on your part. Andrew Talansky finished approx 1 minute down on the top guys. This over a 40+ minute climb. Talansky's VAM was sub-1600, or around 5.9 w/kg, this would put the leaders at perhaps 1650 VAM and 6.1 w/kg. This is not exceptional. 6.1 w/kg gets you around 15th place in 2001 Tour de France.

15th place on 2001 TDF was Roberto Heras...

I am not sure that is what you intended to demonstrate.

 

[the big ring]

Well to be fair, there are many similar stories like that throughout sports. Team owner likes a guy, manager paid to run the owner's team thinks the guy will be a cancer in the locker room. Some manager's cave, many don't. This could be nothing more than a manager saying he doesn't think the fit on the road or in the bus would be productive.

Agreed. But why say it in the first place? Given the outcome, I think it's good PR to say your boss and this new anti-doping crusader are friends, and your boss wanted to hire him.

Good cop bad cop.

Team didn't hire him (looks bad) but the team still looks AWESOME coz THE BOSS (good cop) was friends and tried to get him hired but the team manager (bad cop) said no.

Makes the team and his boss look good and JV takes a plausible fall.

Very clever. Particularly when JV has made it abundantly clear he is anti-doping scandal.

Can't use this strategy more than once though

</cynic>

 

[the big ring]

JV: 6.1W/kg is not exceptional.

To win the Tour, Aldo Sassi said, you need to be able to do 6W/kg.

 

[Benotti69]

15th place on 2001 TDF was Roberto Heras...

I am not sure that is what you intended to demonstrate.

It demonstrates that they are doping but not to levels seen before, but doping none the less.

Valv, Cont and Purito not juiced?

 

[roundabout]

That's a pretty good VAM for a 40+ minute climb.

Of course they were motorpaced by RTVE for some periods.

 

[sniper]

Agreed. But why say it in the first place? Given the outcome, I think it's good PR to say your boss and this new anti-doping crusader are friends, and your boss wanted to hire him.

Good cop bad cop.

Team didn't hire him (looks bad) but the team still looks AWESOME coz THE BOSS (good cop) was friends and tried to get him hired but the team manager (bad cop) said no.

Makes the team and his boss look good and JV takes a plausible fall.

Very clever. Particularly when JV has made it abundantly clear he is anti-doping scandal.

Can't use this strategy more than once though

</cynic>

lovely big ring, spot on analysis.
which reminded me:

8 Jun 2008 06:08:01 -0700, "Prentice Steffen"

Riders and Staff,
(...)please understand that this is about perception rather than
reality. Of course we all know the "perception is reality" thing, so
know too that while we trust everyone this issue is quite important.
...
Questions?

Prentice

 

[Arnout]

That's a pretty good VAM for a 40+ minute climb.

Of course they were motorpaced by RTVE for some periods.

Especially considering the days before and the climbs before on that day.

 

[Epicycle]

It demonstrates that they are doping but not to levels seen before, but doping none the less.

Valv, Cont and Purito not juiced?

There's always going to be some level of doping. The question is...has it's general effectiveness been reduced? There are a lot of indications that it has.

The big problem now is whether some guys are getting a pass to go crazy with doping. Obviously the UCI is very sketchy in that regard, so performances like Sky in the Tour is very suspicious.

The other thing is that the biopassport is not real-time. So theoretically riders can push the envelope for a while and then back off when they are warned. Gilbert and Cancellara are some obvious cases of guys who looked absolutely extraterrestrial one year and not quite on the same level the next (provided Cancellara wasn't motor-driven).

The bottom line is the biopassport needs to be administered independently and UCI management needs to be removed from doping oversight except in the most general sense.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Let's not make this a put as much dogsh@t on Jonathan Vaughters who didn't hire doper who spilled too much beans Jaksche topic...

My estimate on the matter is he [Vaughters] reaaaaaally doesn't like JJ. That could be a good reason not to hire him in my book.

[I off course did have to laugh at the Heras statement]

 

[Benotti69]

There's always going to be some level of doping. The question is...has it's general effectiveness been reduced? There are a lot of indications that it has.

The big problem now is whether some guys are getting a pass to go crazy with doping. Obviously the UCI is very sketchy in that regard, so performances like Sky in the Tour is very suspicious.

The other thing is that the biopassport is not real-time. So theoretically riders can push the envelope for a while and then back off when they are warned. Gilbert and Cancellara are some obvious cases of guys who looked absolutely extraterrestrial one year and not quite on the same level the next (provided Cancellara wasn't motor-driven).

The bottom line is the biopassport needs to be administered independently and UCI management needs to be removed from doping oversight except in the most general sense.

JVs argument has been that is has been reduced to a level where those with 'true marginal gains' ie skinsuits, windtunnel testing and such (which i thought all have and do ) eliminate gains by doping.

But I dont believe that and what i see at la Vuelta is 3 Spanish guys on juice, who dont feel worried that the Spanish are going to test them positive.

Gilbert moved team and to a different doctor.

But the biopassport for me is about UCI trying to control the doping to a level. They have set it there, like the 50% and now all the teams have internal testing to better manage their doping in line with keeping levels consistently high, but not high enough to ring bells in UCI.

 

[ElChingon]

Back to the article and can we keep the JV BS over in the JV thread? That includes you JV, just copy whatever you want to reply to and paste it over in your thread and stay in that corner, this is not about you.

“Ask me who isn’t part of the problem. That would be a much shorter list,” he says.

This is where the story dropped the ball big time, why not ask him if he's asking to be asked? Imagine if we had this list!

 

[red_flanders]

Okay folks, this thread didn't start out well with folks calling JV names. The policy of this board has been that we're not going to censor most insults toward public figures, but we simply do not allow insults of other forum members. I don't see any reason why that needs to change. JV, while a public figure, is clearly a contributing forum member, and as such you need to address him with the same level of respect we require you to use with other forum members. At the same time, JV and any public figure who decides to post here are required to refrain from insulting other forum members, which has also happened in this thread.

JV can clearly handle himself and has not asked for any intervention by the mods, this is purely my personal judgement watching the last couple of threads which JV has been involved in.

Please continue and ask questions, tough and otherwise of your fellow board members, but do not stray into insults. It degrades the conversation and stifles discussion. Plus, it's just rude.

Posts have been edited or deleted. Thank you in advance for your adherence to this core forum rule.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

But I dont believe that and what i see at la Vuelta is 3 Spanish guys on juice, who dont feel worried that the Spanish are going to test them positive..

Since Jorg rode a few years in Spain, the journo should go back to him and ask Jorg how the hell the Spanish get away with it every year at la Vuelta.

(And, to be a real DB now, JV should make that question too, in the media, with his young talented Talenski being robbed of a podium place.)

 

[Benotti69]

Since Jorg rode a few years in Spain, the journo should go back to him and ask Jorg how the hell the Spanish get away with it every year at la Vuelta.

(And, to be a real DB now, JV should make that question too, in the media, with his young talented Talenski being robbed of a podium place.)

We know how they get away with it. Same system, in Spanish, as Armstrong used.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

That includes you JV, just copy whatever you want to reply to and paste it over in your thread and stay in that corner, this is not about you.

In fairness to JV, forum members started discussing him in this thread before he posted so it is only fair he is allowed to defend himself. Though I agree that any mention of JV or anyone else should be related to initial article else we end up going on a tangent.

 

[sniper]

Okay folks, this thread didn't start out well with folks calling JV names. ...

did I miss something? it's a pitty JV's legendary rant in the San Millan thread was deleted. Nobody had called him any names there either iirc.

We know how they get away with it. Same system, in Spanish, as Armstrong used.

Does anybody know the number of pro-teams based in Spain?

 

[ElChingon]

In fairness to JV, forum members started discussing him in this thread before he posted so it is only fair he is allowed to defend himself. Though I agree that any mention of JV or anyone else should be related to initial article else we end up going on a tangent.

Well he has a thread all to himself and his related BS, lets hope it stays there. Or do we need as many JV threads as Lance threads? Lets not go down the fairness road, as his dead ends on a cliff anyway.

 

[hrotha]

Well he has a thread all to himself and his related BS, lets hope it stays there. Or do we need as many JV threads as Lance threads? Lets not go down the fairness road, as his dead ends on a cliff anyway.

Wait, it wasn't JV who started the discussion. People were wondering why Slipstream didn't sign Jaksche as a way to support a blacklisted whistleblower, and we were speculating why that would be. Some of the speculation wasn't favourable to JV. He came and gave his version of why he didn't sign Jaksche (and he put it in more blatant terms that he initially intended to). Since a big part of Jaksche's story is the way he couldn't find a team, all of this is relevant, and if it was relevant before JV showed up, it definitely remains relevant when he's here addressing the points raised.