Jan Ullrich

[TrekCyclist]

Having watched the recent Ullrich documentary (and also having read the book by Friebe): you just cant stop wondering, what Ullrich might have achieved with a stronger mindset. I mean, not even an Armstrong oder Christiano Ronaldo mindset - just an average pro-cyclist mindset.
I remember in the documentary, there was a kind of bodyguard / former boxer, who was sent to take care of Ullrich when he was into drugs. He was doing some boxing workouts with Ullrich and said that despite being heavily affected by all the stuff he was taking, Ullrich was after a few workouts pulling off sessions that he had rarely seen by professional boxers in terms of physical performance.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Having watched the recent Ullrich documentary (and also having read the book by Friebe): you just cant stop wondering, what Ullrich might have achieved with a stronger mindset. I mean, not even an Armstrong oder Christiano Ronaldo mindset - just an average pro-cyclist mindset.
I remember in the documentary, there was a kind of bodyguard / former boxer, who was sent to take care of Ullrich when he was into drugs. He was doing some boxing workouts with Ullrich and said that despite being heavily affected by all the stuff he was taking, Ullrich was after a few workouts pulling off sessions that he had rarely seen by professional boxers in terms of physical performance.

Jan had a powerful engine, didnt he?

 

[houtdffan]

Jan had a powerful engine, didnt he?

Ullrich was one of the most talented athletes in history.

He may be the biggest waste of talent in history, which is why I could never stand him and always had a home rule "No cheering for Jan Ullrich"

I despise those who waste that kind of talent

 

[proffate]

Ullrich was one of the most talented athletes in history.

He may be the biggest waste of talent in history, which is why I could never stand him and always had a home rule "No cheering for Jan Ullrich"

I despise those who waste that kind of talent

Hey man, there are plenty of Greg Lemonds walking around who've never even touched a racing bike in their life. At least we know Jan Ullrich's name.

One does wonder what Jan would have been if he weren't an athlete. Probably homeless.

 

[Extinction]

Hey man, there are plenty of Greg Lemonds walking around who've never even touched a racing bike in their life. At least we know Jan Ullrich's name.

One does wonder what Jan would have been if he weren't an athlete. Probably homeless.

But this begs to ask, why should they seriously take up the sport? Probably millions have the physical potential, but not the head to undertake such an arduous calling.

 

[webvan]

I doubt there are millions of people out there with the physiological capacities of Greg Lemond or Jann Ullrich ;-) You would know pretty early on if you're that gifted.

 

[Cookster15]

But this begs to ask, why should they seriously take up the sport? Probably millions have the physical potential, but not the head to undertake such an arduous calling.

Elite world class athletes require all three:
1. Genetically gifted (physical potential).
2. Work ethic (do the work every day for years).
3. A strong head

Obviously Lance got the better of Jan in the head and didn't get fat or drink too much in the off season. But Ullrich was fortunate he fell into a sport he was born to do. Wiki says he won his first race at the age of nine while riding in sports shoes and on a rented bike?

I disagree millions even have the physical potential of Lemond or Ullrich. They are genetic freaks. But no doubt there are millions of football players with big egos who would melt if forced to do the work and suffering a pro cyclist puts up with.

 

[Extinction]

When I say millions, even if seemingly a large number, if gauged against the global male population is quite small. At any rate, it's more probably fair to say that there would statistically be a Lemond or Ullrich born one out of 5 million births. So there must be many out their who never take up cycling or don't have the strong will and dedication necessary to become a champion.

 

[proffate]

Yeah I wouldn't say millions.. these guys are pretty far out on the bell curve of humanity, which is incompatible with millions having the same ability, even if the total population is in the billions.

But there are definitely some Lemonds you've never heard of.

 

[proffate]

When I say millions, even if seemingly a large number, if gauged against the global male population is quite small. At any rate, it's more probably fair to say that there would statistically be a Lemond or Ullrich born one out of 5 million births. So there must be many out their who never take up cycling or don't have the strong will and dedication necessary to become a champion.

Yeah, 1 in 5 million times "millions" would imply a a population of 10 trillion+.

 

[Extinction]

Yeah, 1 in 5 million times "millions" would imply a a population of 10 trillion+.

Well, I was never good at maths

 

[the delgados]

But this begs to ask, why should they seriously take up the sport? Probably millions have the physical potential, but not the head to undertake such an arduous calling.

Jan Ullrich didn't have much of a choice. The choice was made for him when he was a kid.
He won the Tour de France, so he definitely had the head to take on the arduous calling.
Seems to me that Jan had people in his camp with everyone's best interest in mind, but he was ultimately used and abused by powers greater than him. It tends to happen when you are a half-smart person who happens to be really good at riding your bike.

 

[Extinction]

Jan Ullrich didn't have much of a choice. The choice was made for him when he was a kid.
He won the Tour de France, so he definitely had the head to take on the arduous calling.
Seems to me that Jan had people in his camp with everyone's best interest in mind, but he was ultimately used and abused by powers greater than him. It tends to happen when you are a half-smart person who happens to be really good at riding your bike.

He had a talent for cycling, which is not to be underestimated, in other words hard as nails. Tyler Hamilton put it this way: the East German camp's philosophy was that cyclists were like eggs to be thrown against a brick wall. The one that did not break was good. Jan's did not break.

 

[staubsauger]

He had a talent for cycling, which is not to be underestimated, in other words hard as nails. Tyler Hamilton put it this way: the East German camp's philosophy was that cyclists were like eggs to be thrown against a brick wall. The one that did not break was good. Jan's did not break.

Neither did Berzin & Ugrumov and both aren't treated with the same respect as Jan at all!

 

[Extinction]

Neither did Berzin & Ugrumov and both aren't treated with the same respect as Jan at all!

Neither won the Tour, so the level of talent wasn't the same, nor had to suffer through the errors of their ways as he did, and after being humiliated by an inferior rider, but better doper (pathos).

 

[staubsauger]

Neither won the Tour, so the level of talent wasn't the same, nor had to suffer through the errors of their ways as he did, and after being humiliated by an inferior rider, but better doper (pathos).

The level of the 1994 Giro d'Italia Berzin won was actually very high.

Indurain, Tonkov, Chiapucci actually would have been a podium any other year. But you got Berzin & Pantani on top quality wise.

 

[Extinction]

The level of the 1994 Giro d'Italia Berzin won was actually very high.

Indurain, Tonkov, Chiapucci actually would have been a podium any other year. But you got Berzin & Pantani on top quality wise.

I don't dispute this, but, frankly, I think Ullrich was on a higher level and, when his personal demons didn't haunt him, was.

 

[staubsauger]

I don't dispute this, but, frankly, I think Ullrich was on a higher level and, when his personal demons didn't haunt him, was.

If anybody ruined his own career it was Berzin after he tried to break up his Gewiss contract and isolated himself in the team. It's hard to tell. In 1994 having a naturally low hematocrit value actually was a talent somehow. Berzin was considered a huge rough diamond. Nowadays of course he's primarily remembered as a doping product. But he also completely lost focus after 1995 and was more busy with enjoying the good life rather than living the life of a pro.

That sounds familiar when we've been talking about Ullrich before. Bad advising. Wrong friends. Breakup of marriage. Overweight. Berzin obviously got his car dealership outside of cycling and actually got along people in real life.

Yet Berzin and Ulle are valued completely different. Which personally I think is an assessment way too much in Ullrich's favor.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I don't dispute this, but, frankly, I think Ullrich was on a higher level and, when his personal demons didn't haunt him, was.

I do have a question that I don’t think you e answered before. We all know Tour is supreme for you. How would you rate Roglic compared to Ullrich, Sastre, LeMond, Pogacar, Vingegaard, or any other Tour 1-3 time winner?

 

[Extinction]

If anybody ruined his own career it was Berzin after he tried to break up his Gewiss contract and isolated himself in the team. It's hard to tell. In 1994 having a naturally low hematocrit value actually was a talent somehow. Berzin was considered a huge rough diamond. Nowadays of course he's primarily remembered as a doping product. But he also completely lost focus after 1995 and was more busy with enjoying the good life rather than living the life of a pro.

That sounds familiar when we've been talking about Ullrich before. Bad advising. Wrong friends. Breakup of marriage. Overweight. Berzin obviously got his car dealership outside of cycling and actually got along people in real life.

Yet Berzin and Ulle are valued completely different. Which personally I think is an assessment way too much in Ullrich's favor.

Oh, Berzin was a classy rider, but what Jan did in 96/97 at the Tour was simply sensational. But I agree with you on Berzin being a huge talent.

 

[Cookster15]

Yet Berzin and Ulle are valued completely different. Which personally I think is an assessment way too much in Ullrich's favor.

I don't think Berzin was around long enough for me to make that assessment back then. Having seen both Berzin and Ullrich, I'd definitely rate Ulle higher on talent.

Just found the below YouTube of Berzin. I know this is being humorous but its interesting to know Berzin was overweight and came from the Russian track squad.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsi5tW5kCg

 

[staubsauger]

I don't think Berzin was around long enough for me to make that assessment back then. Having seen both Berzin and Ullrich, I'd definitely rate Ulle higher on talent.

Just found the below YouTube of Berzin. I know this is being humorous but its interesting to know Berzin was overweight and came from the Russian track squad.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsi5tW5kCg

One of Cyclingnews best ever features in fact was about Berzin!

Evgeni Berzin: Russian Roulette | Cyclingnews.com

A look back at the 1994 Giro d'Italia and the fallout with Gewiss

www.cyclingnews.com

As Bombini summed it up:
"When (Berzin) came to Italy, all he thought about was training, about being successful. Then came the changes in his personal life. His divorce, his marriage to Helena from a rich family... Everything was probably a bit too much for the simple boy from Russia." Bombini continued: "Cycling is a big sacrifice. Evgeni had exceptional physical qualities, but mentally he has a deficit. I'm sure he's sad that he's squandered all these years. But you shouldn't dream anymore. He's finished." [Source: radsport-news.com]

 

[Extinction]

One of Cyclingnews best ever features in fact was about Berzin!

Evgeni Berzin: Russian Roulette | Cyclingnews.com

A look back at the 1994 Giro d'Italia and the fallout with Gewiss

www.cyclingnews.com

As Bombini summed it up:
"When (Berzin) came to Italy, all he thought about was training, about being successful. Then came the changes in his personal life. His divorce, his marriage to Helena from a rich family... Everything was probably a bit too much for the simple boy from Russia." Bombini continued: "Cycling is a big sacrifice. Evgeni had exceptional physical qualities, but mentally he has a deficit. I'm sure he's sad that he's squandered all these years. But you shouldn't dream anymore. He's finished." [Source: radsport-news.com]

Staggering

 

[roundabout]

Jan had a powerful engine, didnt he?

Maybe not Ferrari powered, but still not bad

Germany's Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA) has found out that former cycling champion Jan Ullrich made 24 trips to Madrid to use the doping services of Spanish doctor Eufemiano Fuentes.

Between February 2005 and May 2006, Ullrich made eight secret trips to Madrid. The flights were organized by Rudy Pevenage, an Ullrich confidante who used to be his adviser at Team T-Mobile, his former sponsor. Pevenage himself flew to Madrid 15 times for short stays between December 2003 and April 2006 to meet the Spanish doping network, according to the investigators.

Pevenage said Ullrich had asked him to set up meetings with Fuentes because of his "overweight problems." Investigators who checked Ullrich's financial accounts found that he had paid Fuentes a total of €80,000 in two payments.

 

[roundabout]

Jan Ullrich didn't have much of a choice. The choice was made for him when he was a kid.
He won the Tour de France, so he definitely had the head to take on the arduous calling.
Seems to me that Jan had people in his camp with everyone's best interest in mind, but he was ultimately used and abused by powers greater than him. It tends to happen when you are a half-smart person who happens to be really good at riding your bike.

Considering Ullrich's habits of getting into trouble when he was not riding his bike, maybe the 'abuse' was the best thing that happened to him as it kept his life mostly on track for 25 years.