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Re:

Valv.Piti said:
A GT to forget for Adam Yates, 3 weeks of inattentiveness and following wheels as per usual

Maybe a tad harsh given he'll still finish inside top 10 but also a far amount of truth in that summation. He was distinctly passive for the most part and his pea-brained obsession with riding too far back cost him severely at Blockhaus both with regards to time lost plus the energy expended salvaging disaster there was energy he didn't have in the final stages.

yaco said:
What I'll say about the relationship between sprinters and teams are that teams always think they can carry a top class sprinter and be serious about GC - I believe it can and has worked in the past but ultimately it's the sprinter who seeks greener pastures - Cavendish at Sky in 2013 is a perfect example - Had a good season including 3 stages at the TDF but it wasn't enough for the rider.

A classics style sprinter/fast-man CAN co-exist quite smoothly with a serious GC campaign; the only points of potential conflict that can then arise is when said quick man looks beyond just stage wins but then looks a a serious pursuit of the green jersey/points competition and demands support for intermediate sprints. Ewan is of the Cav mould (whether of same calibre yet to be determined) hence a future parting of the ways with Orica probably both iminent and desirable for both parties.
 
Reckon A.Yates has been a bit off his game this Giro -Will say, I consider this to be a high rating Giro with little separating the top 6 - Vuelta is an important race for A.Yates - From season one has always fallen off the cliff from the beginning of August - Giro will build his stamina - Next year is when we'll find his true level in the sport.
 
He's mostly trying to salvage his GC position. Yates didn't have the same support Chaves will enjoy at the Tour apart from Plaza's fine efforts and some good work from Verona and Juul-Jensen. Then there's the fact that White is nowhere near as tactically smart as Stephens.
 
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42x16ss said:
He's mostly trying to salvage his GC position. Yates didn't have the same support Chaves will enjoy at the Tour apart from Plaza's fine efforts and some good work from Verona and Juul-Jensen. Then there's the fact that White is nowhere near as tactically smart as Stephens.

We need to realise that Adam is good at following wheels - It's no coincidence he's bad day in the 2016 TDF was when Astana drilled it from early in the stage - He works best with a consistent tempo in climbs which is the Sky template - His performance at the Giro had nothing to do with White - Interested to see how he performs in the Vuelta.
 
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yaco said:
42x16ss said:
He's mostly trying to salvage his GC position. Yates didn't have the same support Chaves will enjoy at the Tour apart from Plaza's fine efforts and some good work from Verona and Juul-Jensen. Then there's the fact that White is nowhere near as tactically smart as Stephens.

We need to realise that Adam is good at following wheels - It's no coincidence he's bad day in the 2016 TDF was when Astana drilled it from early in the stage - He works best with a consistent tempo in climbs which is the Sky template - His performance at the Giro had nothing to do with White - Interested to see how he performs in the Vuelta.

I think I fit somewhere in between these two views, both of which I can find merit. I do think AY is, at core, a tempo climber but he does have the capacity to respond well to surges ..... but he makes life so much harder for himself (and gives away unnecessary yardage and wastes extra energy) by playing Mr Ticketcollector at the back so much.

He DID have to play a game of attritional survival and husbanding his remaining resources for much of this race due to having to go into the red zone (re energy reserves) on Blockhaus; again a case of him paying the price for poor positioning and following the wrong wheels. Grand Tour lesson no1. At TDF, UK Postal are the wheels to follow if you can. Grand Tour lesson no.2 At all other GTs, disregard lesson no1 as they're nowhere near as formidable or organised. A learning experience for him; lets hope so.

As for White, whilst he CANNOT be held responsible for AY's performance; his team direction could most certainly be questioned at a number of points of the race.
- Firstly, he had riders on the front during flat stages far too often. There appeared no shortage of other teams with sprinters up for the job so why do any more than your quota.
- Calling Plaza back from the break on stg11 was puzzling. The break was going to stay away and he was probably strong enough to contend. Yates appeared to be in no difficulty so it was a very conservative move.
- The times Plaza & Verona were put on the front on mountains/downhills WERE both meaningful and effective; putting Ewan on the front was just pointless "theatre". If you're going to put your men to work in a live racing situation, it should be for a clear purpose.

White has many positive attributes with regards to talent identification and development and remains a key asset for Orica going forward; however as a race DS Stephens has shown himself to be much more astute and calculating

Last year's Vuelta showed that the Chaves/SY vibe appeared at minimum, respectful and harmonious, arguably quite amicable. What will be interesting is how the AY/Chaves vibe plays out as the matter of their mutual co-existance (and its relative "health") will clearly influence contract negotiations next season.
 
How do you know they didn't actually have a purpose with putting Ewan at the front? Sure, they weren't able to obtain that purpse - whatever it might have been - but you just gotta try.
Besides, the purpose might have been something as simple as toughening Ewan up a bit.
 
Re:

RedheadDane said:
How do you know they didn't actually have a purpose with putting Ewan at the front? Sure, they weren't able to obtain that purpse - whatever it might have been - but you just gotta try.
Besides, the purpose might have been something as simple as toughening Ewan up a bit.

Firstly, he cannot put out sufficient power to reduce a gap to any meaningful degree; even maintaining a margin is stretching it ... he just isn't big enough. Toughen him up in lesser races, not at a GT.

Regrettably, for his manager, I'm not sure this Giro has done wonders for his market value. Yes, there IS that big banner headline of a stage win (plus those WT points) and those aren't to be sneezed at for some teams for whom these are paramount for survival. However, his shortcomings (lack of size, body strength/capacity to handle argy bargy & hold position) have also been highlighted.

As for the next 1&1/2 seasons, Orica have to balance up the cost benefit analysis of including him in any future GTs ...... and its not necessarily looking rosy for his prospects
 
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dirkprovin said:
RedheadDane said:
How do you know they didn't actually have a purpose with putting Ewan at the front? Sure, they weren't able to obtain that purpse - whatever it might have been - but you just gotta try.
Besides, the purpose might have been something as simple as toughening Ewan up a bit.

Firstly, he cannot put out sufficient power to reduce a gap to any meaningful degree; even maintaining a margin is stretching it ... he just isn't big enough. Toughen him up in lesser races, not at a GT.

Regrettably, for his manager, I'm not sure this Giro has done wonders for his market value. Yes, there IS that big banner headline of a stage win (plus those WT points) and those aren't to be sneezed at for some teams for whom these are paramount for survival. However, his shortcomings (lack of size, body strength/capacity to handle argy bargy & hold position) have also been highlighted.

As for the next 1&1/2 seasons, Orica have to balance up the cost benefit analysis of including him in any future GTs ...... and its not necessarily looking rosy for his prospects

My understand is Ewan already has the Giro pencilled in his diary for 2018.
 
I don't think Im being harsh. Orica has done well on a couple of occasions, trying to set something up for Yates, but he still exclusive follow wheels. For 2 straight GTs, I have at no point seen him in the wind, let alone make an aggressive move of some sorts.

Its disappointing that he is that passive, his brother seems to be the polar-opposite when it comes to aggression.
 
Re:

Valv.Piti said:
I don't think Im being harsh. Orica has done well on a couple of occasions, trying to set something up for Yates, but he still exclusive follow wheels. For 2 straight GTs, I have at no point seen him in the wind, let alone make an aggressive move of some sorts.

Its disappointing that he is that passive, his brother seems to be the polar-opposite when it comes to aggression.
Simon Yates is a great racer. He got 3 great wins by attacking from pretty far out (Fayence, GP Miguel Indurain, Leysin) while in at least 2 of them he wasn't the strongest (Fayence, Leysin). Not being the strongest and winning races by attacking and taking risks make me like him a lot.
 
Re:

Valv.Piti said:
I don't think Im being harsh. Orica has done well on a couple of occasions, trying to set something up for Yates, but he still exclusive follow wheels. For 2 straight GTs, I have at no point seen him in the wind, let alone make an aggressive move of some sorts.

Its disappointing that he is that passive, his brother seems to be the polar-opposite when it comes to aggression.

Well, he DID make one aggressive move at TDF on the stage 7 to Lac de Payolle where the 1KM to go inflateable arch collapsed on him but at this Giro I think the only time he DID stick his nose to the front of the lead pack was on the Bergamo finish when he opened up his sprint a bit too early. Having said that, this was very much an attritional GT and he put himself into deficit early by having to burn so many matches on Blockhaus.

On evidence to date, Simon does appear the more daring of the two but then again, the one GT where he has raced for GC was under Stephens. I think Adam may be marginally the stronger TTer and it may be the case that Chaves may now be superior in that aspect to both (going off his 2016). If, as I suspect, he rides the Vuelta (most probably alongside Chaves), it WILL be interesting to see how he responds to Stephens' direction.
 
Re: Re:

Forever The Best said:
Valv.Piti said:
I don't think Im being harsh. Orica has done well on a couple of occasions, trying to set something up for Yates, but he still exclusive follow wheels. For 2 straight GTs, I have at no point seen him in the wind, let alone make an aggressive move of some sorts.

Its disappointing that he is that passive, his brother seems to be the polar-opposite when it comes to aggression.
Simon Yates is a great racer. He got 3 great wins by attacking from pretty far out (Fayence, GP Miguel Indurain, Leysin) while in at least 2 of them he wasn't the strongest (Fayence, Leysin). Not being the strongest and winning races by attacking and taking risks make me like him a lot.

That Leysin stage win was an awesome performance - Attacking the GC peleton on the second last climb to bridge over to the breakaway then holding the wheel of a rampant Porte on the last climb and winning the stage.
 
Re: Re:

yaco said:
Orica will not take Ewan to a GT if there is a TTT - There is one at the 2017 Vuelta which will anyway have a strong GT focus while allegedly the 2018 TDF will feature a TTT.

Therein lies another key reason why he is an increasingly problematic selection of future GTs; he is "labour intensive" for HIS goals and offers SFA in return utility to the team.

yaco said:
Keukeliere wins the GC at the Tour of Belgium while riding for the Belgium team. He'll be feeling great as a Belgium winning his NT.

Orica has traditionally allowed some of their riders "leave passes" to ride in certain domestic events; Cort - Tour of Denmark, the Canadians in Tour de Beuce. Nice to see him pick up a win and not against "stiffs" either. He should also probably be seen as another young international signing (signed age 22/23) who the team has brought on and has developed into a very valuable asset both with regards to personal results and his overall team utility.

Bar some exceptional $$ offer from elsewhere, or an unexpected fall-out with the team, I see him being re-signed. He has raced the Vuelta the past 2 seasons and finished 2016 particularly strongly but given his recent altitude camp, it's looking like he may be going to the Tour.

Giro stg 21 thoughts
- Holding onto white with only a 30 odd second margin in an ITT against Jungels was always going to be a forlorn hope .... and so it played out. Yates died pretty badly coming home.
- Hepburn rode an excellent TT. Had he not crashed 600m from the finish (lets say that cost 20-25sec), he'd have been well inside the top10 for the stage.
-Tuft was his usual self; realistically no longer the TTer he once was but still a very powerful engine
-Another excellent ride from Plaza inside the top 25 for the stage which cemented a top 30 GC finish (plus some WT points), capping off a very impressive GT. Would have to think that he will be back for the Vuelta.
 
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Re:

Valv.Piti said:
I don't think Im being harsh. Orica has done well on a couple of occasions, trying to set something up for Yates, but he still exclusive follow wheels. For 2 straight GTs, I have at no point seen him in the wind, let alone make an aggressive move of some sorts.

Its disappointing that he is that passive, his brother seems to be the polar-opposite when it comes to aggression.

Glad I am not the only one.

Hearing Matt White bait the Aussie media with how hard done by his team was on stage 9 was quite rich and funny! :D

For me, after a second and third in grand tours last year with Chaves, a 10th from memory for Simon at the Vuelta and a 4th place whilst never making ripples at the Tour WHILST adding Roman Kreuziger who has finished 5th at the Tour, makes Orica a GC riding power house.

What do they do?

They split this amazing force into 2 groups!

Personally, I think they are NUTS. Anything can happen at the Tour. Chaves needed a team mate to attack and somehow dislodge Contador at last years Vuelta. That was one of those incidents on a day, almost nobody could expect. It's normally Contador pulling those moves.

Now consider them against Sky and Froome at the Tour. I think it's madness.

IMO, the whole team should have been at the Giro and/or Vuelta aiming for a GT win with Chaves.

But we'll see how the Tour goes. It would be great to see Chaves get a podium, or even shockingly win the Tour, but I don't think he will. The bases are loaded really heavily this year. When Chaves needed to take turns in the Giro, like Adam Yates, he either couldn't or refused to in the final stages.

That is the point where a rider needs to step in and do that little bit more, like Bardet did last year to make sure they get the podium spot. I'd have had the team aim for any GT win BUT the Tour this year and then shifted to the Tour for 2018.

They have the squad to do so and be a serious climbing threat if they want to...
 
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Re:

RedheadDane said:
I'll never understand why they didn't keep Simon in the Giro.
2x Yates in the Giro.
Chaves + S. Yates in the Tour.
Chaves + A. Yates in the Vuelta.
2-2-2, seems like a pretty even way to do it...

Now it seems like they're going with a 1-2-3 approach... with their original plan of course being the 2-1-3 approach.

Everything written there, is pure madness.

The Yates are about the level of Thomas, Landa, Henao, Nieve and Poels.

Actually, Sky have more climbing domestiques to help their big dog, Froome.

Orica have both Yates AND Kreuziger. Balance that equation out...Sky win. Sky can dictate terms all Tour long to Orica and they'll do what? Hold on!

Great plan.

They should have done what Sky did, sent everyone to ONE GT and focused exclusively on winning that.

But they split their eggs and thought it would work! Against Sky at the Tour!! :lol: :lol:

That's called being delusional. It won't work. Unless something odd occurs.

Movistar have tried for YEARS to beat Sky at the Tour and they're the ONLY team who have gotten close. Actually they are the only team to put time into Froome in the mountains.

That means, until Orica get the result, they should have done what Dumoulin has achieved and focused on the GT Froome is not racing to win.

I am really surprised people on here, are agreeing with Orica's blindness. I think it's really, really, really dumb.

Chaves had a second and third in 2 GT's last year. They should be going for the win in the Giro or Vuelta and not an outside podium chance at the Tour.
 
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Re:

RedheadDane said:
IMO, the whole team should have been at the Giro and/or Vuelta aiming for a GT win with Chaves.

They're not allowed to do that. Only 9 riders. :p

Chaves, 2x Yates and Kreuziger are 4 riders.

There are no rules WHO you can take to the grand tours. If they are legally allowed to race, you make 4 spots for them on your squad. 9 riders total leaves 5 more.

Orica have a lot of good flat stage domestiques. You can push an eschelon in northern France with that. Yay, you drop one or 2 GC riders. Froome likely won't get dropped though.

It's a nice theory to race the way they are planning if Chris Froome and the Sky train are not racing. But they are.

Orica should have sent a stage hunting team to the Tour and sent a strong climbing arsenal to the Giro.

It was wide open for them to really step up. What are they, scared of Quintana? Nibali?

Who on earth thinks Chris Froome is not the favourite for the Tour de France? He didn't once lose out last year.

Woet Poels was stronger, after setting the tempo on the climbs, than every other racer other than Porte and Froome! That should scare people. Racing the Tour is madness IMO.

Don't want to win a GT, then by all means, aim for the Tour!

PS: Orica splitting their team into sprinting support for Ewan, not demanding he finish the darn race, like last years Vuelta and then trying for GC, is wasted resources. They MUST split their aims and goals and focus on ONE only per GT. Not both. It's ludicrous. Cav left Sky after they refused to back him...and he won 3 stages that year he rode with them!

Split the squad and focus on GC for ONE GT, stages for another, the TTT in the one that allows it, plus perhaps a KOM jersey for a Yates rider. That's clever. Right now, it's just dumb.

Last years Tour stage win was proof of this. It took 3 Orica riders to beat ONE Peter Sagan who did 50% of the work in a 7 man breakaway. Then what happened after that stage? Peter Sagan kept going.

People have to accept, that winning at the Tour is REALLY hard. There is no shame in banking all your eggs on the Giro and Vuelta rather than the Tour and going for gold there. Once you've gotten that sorted, THEN by all means have a crack at the Tour.

Orica historically get a stage win at the Tour and maybe a good TTT. Anything MORE is BONUS and a SUPER EFFORT. That's how hard the Tour is. SO why not expend that energy and get the bigger win overall at the Giro or Vuelta?

Pride is the only thing I can think of. Glamour of the gold in France...
 
I KEEP FORGETTING ABOUT KREUZIGER BEING ON THE TEAM! :rolleyes: :eek:

But my previous post was mostly a reference to the fact that that way all three of them - Yateses and Chaves - could've done two GTs, and there could've been two of them in each GT (does that make sense?)
Of course, throwing Kreuziger into the mix completely changes the dynamic of everything...



Galic Ho said:
RedheadDane said:
IMO, the whole team should have been at the Giro and/or Vuelta aiming for a GT win with Chaves.

They're not allowed to do that. Only 9 riders. :p

Chaves, 2x Yates and Kreuziger are 4 riders.

The whole team. As in all 26 riders.
Since when are the Yateses, Chaves and Kreuziger the whole team?


What's the proper way to write 'Yates' in plural, btw?
 
Re: Re:

Galic Ho said:
Valv.Piti said:
I don't think Im being harsh. Orica has done well on a couple of occasions, trying to set something up for Yates, but he still exclusive follow wheels. For 2 straight GTs, I have at no point seen him in the wind, let alone make an aggressive move of some sorts.

Its disappointing that he is that passive, his brother seems to be the polar-opposite when it comes to aggression.

Glad I am not the only one.

Hearing Matt White bait the Aussie media with how hard done by his team was on stage 9 was quite rich and funny! :D

For me, after a second and third in grand tours last year with Chaves, a 10th from memory for Simon at the Vuelta and a 4th place whilst never making ripples at the Tour WHILST adding Roman Kreuziger who has finished 5th at the Tour, makes Orica a GC riding power house.

What do they do?

They split this amazing force into 2 groups!

Personally, I think they are NUTS. Anything can happen at the Tour. Chaves needed a team mate to attack and somehow dislodge Contador at last years Vuelta. That was one of those incidents on a day, almost nobody could expect. It's normally Contador pulling those moves.

Now consider them against Sky and Froome at the Tour. I think it's madness.

IMO, the whole team should have been at the Giro and/or Vuelta aiming for a GT win with Chaves.

But we'll see how the Tour goes. It would be great to see Chaves get a podium, or even shockingly win the Tour, but I don't think he will. The bases are loaded really heavily this year. When Chaves needed to take turns in the Giro, like Adam Yates, he either couldn't or refused to in the final stages.

That is the point where a rider needs to step in and do that little bit more, like Bardet did last year to make sure they get the podium spot. I'd have had the team aim for any GT win BUT the Tour this year and then shifted to the Tour for 2018.

They have the squad to do so and be a serious climbing threat if they want to...

Quite a bit that I can agree with, some less so.

Completely concur withe you re White's "pity party".

SY was 6th at 2016 Vuelta, not 10th. Orica pulled off a set piece manouver on st14 (with 3 riders in the early break) to springboard him up the standings.

Slightly disagree with you re Chaves 3rd at Vuelta; yes they DID have a key lieutenant up the road in Howson and they did springboard him off the front but he still had to have the legs to pull out that margin on Contador. Re 2016 Giro, he DID run out of gas on the final 2 stages but he was still daring enough to take the risk of going from a long way out on stg 19.

Over the long run, I DO think that the Giro & Vuelta will more often suit his riding characteristics than the Tour but this year (with considerably less ITT than normal) was probably as good a chance as any of giving him a shot whereas the amount of ITT in this recent Giro was probably not in his favour. We'll know after the Tour whether it was a poor call or not.

Could the Vuelta be Orica's best chance of a GT podium this year ? You could be right. I suspect Chaves will go into the Tour distinctly "underdone"/short on race miles so I suspect SY may be the real GC man with Chaves perhaps finishing the Tour strongly.

I think the early season talk of all 3 GC men to the Vuelta is White (again) talking out of his blowhole. What WILL however be interesting is the actual composition of both the Tour team & the Vuelta as its unlikely the key mountain support will be able to back up from Tour to Vuelta. Howson is Chaves' preferred right hand man and I'd actually prefer him going to the Vuelta but its likely he's going to the Tour. I would expect Plaza to return for the Vuelta but Kreuziger unlikely. Verona COULD return for Vuelta but I'd probably prefer Haig unless he's a surprise inclusion for the Tour.
 
White has confirmed that A.Yates will ride the Vuelta - This is a non-negotiable as they want him to ride well for a whole season - Chaves will certainly ride the Vuelta as the TDF is training - Possibly S.Yates could miss the Vuelta if it's a tough TDF - There is nothing wrong with the strategy of each of the 3 GC guy's having one main target.