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Aug 12, 2009
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Re:

RedheadDane said:
I KEEP FORGETTING ABOUT KREUZIGER BEING ON THE TEAM! :rolleyes: :eek:

But my previous post was mostly a reference to the fact that that way all three of them - Yateses and Chaves - could've done two GTs, and there could've been two of them in each GT (does that make sense?)
Of course, throwing Kreuziger into the mix completely changes the dynamic of everything...



Galic Ho said:
RedheadDane said:
IMO, the whole team should have been at the Giro and/or Vuelta aiming for a GT win with Chaves.

They're not allowed to do that. Only 9 riders. :p

Chaves, 2x Yates and Kreuziger are 4 riders.

The whole team. As in all 26 riders.
Since when are the Yateses, Chaves and Kreuziger the whole team?


What's the proper way to write 'Yates' in plural, btw?

Yateses. Plural form, is it not?

Chaves is a great guy. Orica have had some really well targetted and executed stage wins at the Tour.

Simon Gerrans winning stage 4 in I think it was 2015 and the mailot jaune that went with it. That's fantastic. A great result for any team.

But without a prologue in recent tours, the mailot jaune is normally going to a sprinter early on. Kittel and Cavendish tend to win the first few sprints. Orica should IMO, use the Tour for stage wins. Just load it with strategies on breakaways, sprints etc.

Naturally, my plan involved NOT getting rid of Michael Matthews. I wonder what his view is now that Sunweb have a grand tour winner in their ranks?

In understood the pun on sending the WHOLE team. I meant just load all your bases with either GC riders, or send the stage hunting and time trial strong squad to a grand tour.

Have the Yates boys aim for a high Dauphine result...peak them for that, or Romandie respectively, get a GOOD result there and then aim for them to support Chaves. Kreuziger was good at Liege, for 2 seasons now he was making moves in the break. Orica always seem to have good flow at the Vuelta.

Perhaps they will load their bases at the Vuelta and just use the Tour to warm Chaves up.

But trying to take Sky on...if Movistar and Quintana couldn't dislodge Froome, expecting Chaves to beat Nairo AND Froome is asking too much IMO. Plus I really like the guy...he needs to win as many races and smile for fans.

Want him to win...but don't agree with the strategy unless they're redirecting resources to the Vuelta.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Re: Re:

dirkprovin said:
Quite a bit that I can agree with, some less so.

Completely concur withe you re White's "pity party".

SY was 6th at 2016 Vuelta, not 10th. Orica pulled off a set piece manouver on st14 (with 3 riders in the early break) to springboard him up the standings.

Slightly disagree with you re Chaves 3rd at Vuelta; yes they DID have a key lieutenant up the road in Howson and they did springboard him off the front but he still had to have the legs to pull out that margin on Contador. Re 2016 Giro, he DID run out of gas on the final 2 stages but he was still daring enough to take the risk of going from a long way out on stg 19.

Over the long run, I DO think that the Giro & Vuelta will more often suit his riding characteristics than the Tour but this year (with considerably less ITT than normal) was probably as good a chance as any of giving him a shot whereas the amount of ITT in this recent Giro was probably not in his favour. We'll know after the Tour whether it was a poor call or not.

Could the Vuelta be Orica's best chance of a GT podium this year ? You could be right. I suspect Chaves will go into the Tour distinctly "underdone"/short on race miles so I suspect SY may be the real GC man with Chaves perhaps finishing the Tour strongly.

I think the early season talk of all 3 GC men to the Vuelta is White (again) talking out of his blowhole. What WILL however be interesting is the actual composition of both the Tour team & the Vuelta as its unlikely the key mountain support will be able to back up from Tour to Vuelta. Howson is Chaves' preferred right hand man and I'd actually prefer him going to the Vuelta but its likely he's going to the Tour. I would expect Plaza to return for the Vuelta but Kreuziger unlikely. Verona COULD return for Vuelta but I'd probably prefer Haig unless he's a surprise inclusion for the Tour.

Matt White knows the Aussie press, particularly the SBS crew, will lap up what he feeds them.

So as long as nobody challenges him on some of his hypocrisy, nothing will occur. I remember several stages where Orica intentionally pushed when a rival had bad luck occur.

It was to be expected.

Thanks for the correction about Simon Yates. I thought it was 10th.

I wasn't bagging Chaves springboard move in the Vuelta to dislodge Contador. It's actually complement. Normally Contador does those moves, especially in the Vuelta. Tuning in that stage, to see Chaves with a helper punishing Contador, was a big shock.

That is all my point was. Without that tactical nous, he'd have finished the race in 4th. Which is really good. But when sending him to the Tour, against Contador, Froome, Porte, Valverde, Bardet and a Nairo Quintana who could be argued may IMPROVE at the Tour, is pushing your luck a bit too far IMO.

yaco said:
White has confirmed that A.Yates will ride the Vuelta - This is a non-negotiable as they want him to ride well for a whole season - Chaves will certainly ride the Vuelta as the TDF is training - Possibly S.Yates could miss the Vuelta if it's a tough TDF - There is nothing wrong with the strategy of each of the 3 GC guy's having one main target.

We will see at the end of the year. If they don't manage a podium spot, then based on last years results, that's proof enough it is a bad plan. The logical progression after a second and third in one season for a rider, is to AIM for the GT win. That means having everyone on a squad, support that.

Which for me, granted how Sky actually do support Froome with everyone, even the guys given the Giro go to the Tour to ride for Froome, means sending both Yates and Kreuziger to whichever GT Chaves wants to peak and aim for the win in. For me, that means NOT trying to win the Tour.

Let's say Sky, has a 2014. Porte in theory becomes the favourite for the Tour based on this seasons form. Or perhaps Valverde, if I were to be so bold. Then, Orica would look smart sending Chaves there. But that's a HUGE what if. It's unlikely to occur. Froome has been so solid at the Tour.

You may think a few top 10 places are great for Orica, but when they could win a GT with Chaves, or finish second to someone who is really, really, really good and have lots of options to attack with by loading their squad, sorry, but to not do so it dumb.

The end result is the Yates get a good top 10 result and Chaves maybe gets a podium spot or close to it.

Contador this year gets a Bauke Mollema to help him.

Froome is the same as last year. Everyone of his helpers at the Giro, kind of fell short. He'll have a train once more.

Porte gets total focus at the Tour. He should be stronger. He looks stronger.

Movistar always have something to prove at the Tour. Valverde is the best domestique climber in the world. I'd take him over any other GC rider to have at my side.

Orica can easily load their bases with climbers, then have lots of attack options and be a threat. At the very least, it allow Chaves to just follow wheels and then make moves if Orica use the Yates and Kreuziger to attack. That's the point. Constantly be looking to attack and gain time over other GC riders, rather than just following wheels like Adam Yates has done for 2 consecutive grand tours.

It's nice, but lets be honest. Who here thinks Woet Poels last year couldn't have gotten a solid top 10 performance if he didn't work for Froome? Porte finally got his top 5 when not working for Froome. That's the point. Someone has to sacrifice their chances of a high finish.

Give them a stage race as consolation. Full support there. It's not hard to manage.

Orica actually have options. A lot of GC teams would love to have their support and riders results.

Then numbers literally demand they take a dig at a GT: 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 6th across 3 GT's. Yeah, they should be going for the WIN and number 1.
 
Re: Re:

Galic Ho said:
dirkprovin said:
Quite a bit that I can agree with, some less so.

Completely concur withe you re White's "pity party".

SY was 6th at 2016 Vuelta, not 10th. Orica pulled off a set piece manouver on st14 (with 3 riders in the early break) to springboard him up the standings.

Slightly disagree with you re Chaves 3rd at Vuelta; yes they DID have a key lieutenant up the road in Howson and they did springboard him off the front but he still had to have the legs to pull out that margin on Contador. Re 2016 Giro, he DID run out of gas on the final 2 stages but he was still daring enough to take the risk of going from a long way out on stg 19.

Over the long run, I DO think that the Giro & Vuelta will more often suit his riding characteristics than the Tour but this year (with considerably less ITT than normal) was probably as good a chance as any of giving him a shot whereas the amount of ITT in this recent Giro was probably not in his favour. We'll know after the Tour whether it was a poor call or not.

Could the Vuelta be Orica's best chance of a GT podium this year ? You could be right. I suspect Chaves will go into the Tour distinctly "underdone"/short on race miles so I suspect SY may be the real GC man with Chaves perhaps finishing the Tour strongly.

I think the early season talk of all 3 GC men to the Vuelta is White (again) talking out of his blowhole. What WILL however be interesting is the actual composition of both the Tour team & the Vuelta as its unlikely the key mountain support will be able to back up from Tour to Vuelta. Howson is Chaves' preferred right hand man and I'd actually prefer him going to the Vuelta but its likely he's going to the Tour. I would expect Plaza to return for the Vuelta but Kreuziger unlikely. Verona COULD return for Vuelta but I'd probably prefer Haig unless he's a surprise inclusion for the Tour.

Matt White knows the Aussie press, particularly the SBS crew, will lap up what he feeds them.

So as long as nobody challenges him on some of his hypocrisy, nothing will occur. I remember several stages where Orica intentionally pushed when a rival had bad luck occur.

It was to be expected.

Thanks for the correction about Simon Yates. I thought it was 10th.

I wasn't bagging Chaves springboard move in the Vuelta to dislodge Contador. It's actually complement. Normally Contador does those moves, especially in the Vuelta. Tuning in that stage, to see Chaves with a helper punishing Contador, was a big shock.

That is all my point was. Without that tactical nous, he'd have finished the race in 4th. Which is really good. But when sending him to the Tour, against Contador, Froome, Porte, Valverde, Bardet and a Nairo Quintana who could be argued may IMPROVE at the Tour, is pushing your luck a bit too far IMO.

yaco said:
White has confirmed that A.Yates will ride the Vuelta - This is a non-negotiable as they want him to ride well for a whole season - Chaves will certainly ride the Vuelta as the TDF is training - Possibly S.Yates could miss the Vuelta if it's a tough TDF - There is nothing wrong with the strategy of each of the 3 GC guy's having one main target.

We will see at the end of the year. If they don't manage a podium spot, then based on last years results, that's proof enough it is a bad plan. The logical progression after a second and third in one season for a rider, is to AIM for the GT win. That means having everyone on a squad, support that.

Which for me, granted how Sky actually do support Froome with everyone, even the guys given the Giro go to the Tour to ride for Froome, means sending both Yates and Kreuziger to whichever GT Chaves wants to peak and aim for the win in. For me, that means NOT trying to win the Tour.

Let's say Sky, has a 2014. Porte in theory becomes the favourite for the Tour based on this seasons form. Or perhaps Valverde, if I were to be so bold. Then, Orica would look smart sending Chaves there. But that's a HUGE what if. It's unlikely to occur. Froome has been so solid at the Tour.

You may think a few top 10 places are great for Orica, but when they could win a GT with Chaves, or finish second to someone who is really, really, really good and have lots of options to attack with by loading their squad, sorry, but to not do so it dumb.

The end result is the Yates get a good top 10 result and Chaves maybe gets a podium spot or close to it.

Contador this year gets a Bauke Mollema to help him.

Froome is the same as last year. Everyone of his helpers at the Giro, kind of fell short. He'll have a train once more.

Porte gets total focus at the Tour. He should be stronger. He looks stronger.

Movistar always have something to prove at the Tour. Valverde is the best domestique climber in the world. I'd take him over any other GC rider to have at my side.

Orica can easily load their bases with climbers, then have lots of attack options and be a threat. At the very least, it allow Chaves to just follow wheels and then make moves if Orica use the Yates and Kreuziger to attack. That's the point. Constantly be looking to attack and gain time over other GC riders, rather than just following wheels like Adam Yates has done for 2 consecutive grand tours.

It's nice, but lets be honest. Who here thinks Woet Poels last year couldn't have gotten a solid top 10 performance if he didn't work for Froome? Porte finally got his top 5 when not working for Froome. That's the point. Someone has to sacrifice their chances of a high finish.

Give them a stage race as consolation. Full support there. It's not hard to manage.

Orica actually have options. A lot of GC teams would love to have their support and riders results.

Then numbers literally demand they take a dig at a GT: 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 6th across 3 GT's. Yeah, they should be going for the WIN and number 1.

Think we're on the same page re White; I think he does possess some qualities that are valuable to the development of the team but I'm increasingly less "sold" on his capacities as a race DS. The tactical brains behind Orica's successful 'set pieces' at last years Vuelta was Stephens who appears to have the closest connection amongst the team hierarchy with Chaves.

Fair point re what/whom Chaves will be up against at this year's Tour. Froome - goes without saying, Quintana - agree that he should be stronger at the Tour, Bardet - agree he's certainly a podium contender, Valverde - tick, Contador - I will admit to a sly liking for old Bertie the Bounder but whilst he cannot be underestimated, I'm thinking he might be hard pressed to make the podium; Porte - sorry but no sale, a great super dom but hasn't the brains/makes panic mistakes under pressure & his TT is uneven and frankly over-rated.

Fully agree that UK Postal's "Modus Opperandi" is "all in" for the Tour whereas they can vary between haphazard to a rabble at the other 2 GTs. I think that having all 3 GC men finish top 6 last year DID essentially lock Orica into giving each a chance to lead at one GT; tricky to manage and its an open question as to whether Chaves' knee problems have simplified or complicated the issue. DO I think Orica made a mistake by altering what worked last year for Chaves by bringing out to race early season in AUS .... yes, I do, wonderful PR but not sure it was worth it. The only positive is that they've made the mistake in the first year of his new contract so hopefully they won't screw it up in future !!

Don't see AY backing up for the Tour seeing how he was running on empty at the end of the Giro. Quite agree with the scenario you plotted for Orica at the Tour. It would not surprise to see them allow one or two of the puncheurs/rouleurs to have a freelance at some finishes with a stage win being a pleasant bonus. Sending either Kreuziger or Howson up the road for a set-piece would not surprise. Much will depend on whether UK Postal will see them as a particular danger to themselves or actually be happy to see some of their prime competition fighting amongst themselves ?

As I said earlier, I think Vuelta probably is their best shot and, especially given Chaves' interrupted season, this is what I'd have him peaking for. Realistically he's not going to be quite there at the start of the Tour so swing the main thrust towards SY for that one and whatever Chaves can produce later in the Tour will be a pleasant bonus.

You make the statement that many teams would like to have the climbing talent that Orica possesses and that seems a fair point. The issue is actually getting that potential to gell into successful units. We know that Chaves has amazing rapport with many who've raced with him and Howson looks to be developing into an excellent super-dom for the mountains who could in future maybe place highly at one weekers in his own right. Plaza is a veteran but was very valuable at this recent Giro. Haig has looked a very promising climbing talent. Kreuziger's CV speaks for itself but as yet, its unclear whether he can/will gell with either Chaves or either Yates. Verona --- jury still out.

What I DO hope they have learned from this Giro is that they CANNOT support both a GC campaign plus a bunch sprinter who requires real support. A classics type quick man (ala Matthews) is certainly still a viable selection as they require less support and do offer support utility to the GC in return. FWIW, what probably was the sealer for Matthews leaving was his desire to pursue the green jersey rather than just stage wins; the latter was still viable with Orica whereas the former meant a dilution of resources. My one worry is that I'm not sure that its yet registered with Mr White that Ewan is becoming an increasingly poor fit.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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I expect Kreuziger having best shape of all year at the Tour, great shape. At least like last year or better. That's race he knows how to prepare for.
 
Re:

Kokoso said:
I expect Kreuziger having best shape of all year at the Tour, great shape. At least like last year or better. That's race he knows how to prepare for.

And, yes, that would be very nice indeed. But it will count for very little if he has failed to "gell" with the other personalities in the team .... and especially the designated GC men. That is/will be the intangible element that decides whether he has/will be a great signing or a lot of money flushed down the S bend.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re: Re:

dirkprovin said:
Kokoso said:
I expect Kreuziger having best shape of all year at the Tour, great shape. At least like last year or better. That's race he knows how to prepare for.

And, yes, that would be very nice indeed. But it will count for very little if he has failed to "gell" with the other personalities in the team .... and especially the designated GC men.
You could say that about anyone. Why are you mentioning that? I don't see people usually mentioning that blending well with the rest of the team is advantage.
 
Re: Re:

RedheadDane said:
Strawberry_Jams said:
Pretty sure it's Yates' with the apostrophe at the end.

Wouldn't that be genetiv? As in, something own by one - or both - of them.

What? This conversation is very important! :p

Yes it would. But you can't pluralize names (which you probably know very well :p )...

The Yates twins does the trick (this is probably the only context in which that sentence is gramatically correct, by the way).
 
Re: Re:

dirkprovin said:
yaco said:
Orica will not take Ewan to a GT if there is a TTT - There is one at the 2017 Vuelta which will anyway have a strong GT focus while allegedly the 2018 TDF will feature a TTT.

Therein lies another key reason why he is an increasingly problematic selection of future GTs; he is "labour intensive" for HIS goals and offers SFA in return utility to the team.
His goals are also goals for the team as he showed at this year Giro with his stage win, at least that gives the team something to take home from the race.
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
dirkprovin said:
Kokoso said:
I expect Kreuziger having best shape of all year at the Tour, great shape. At least like last year or better. That's race he knows how to prepare for.

And, yes, that would be very nice indeed. But it will count for very little if he has failed to "gell" with the other personalities in the team .... and especially the designated GC men.
You could say that about anyone. Why are you mentioning that? I don't see people usually mentioning that blending well with the rest of the team is advantage.
Except that part of the success of Orica seems to have been through performances that were rather more than riders "just doing their job", and that those performances have at least in part been based on interpersonal relationships within the team, eg the way Bewley and Howson have worked for Chaves in the past.
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
dirkprovin said:
Kokoso said:
I expect Kreuziger having best shape of all year at the Tour, great shape. At least like last year or better. That's race he knows how to prepare for.

And, yes, that would be very nice indeed. But it will count for very little if he has failed to "gell" with the other personalities in the team .... and especially the designated GC men.
You could say that about anyone. Why are you mentioning that? I don't see people usually mentioning that blending well with the rest of the team is advantage.

For the plain and simple reason that team chemistry is very often the difference between a team success or eventual undoing. Kreuziger DID ride well in the Ardennes but as yet, the only major race he's ridden with a GC man was Pais Vasco with SY.

With most others on the team, we have clear evidence of how Rider X has performed when riding with/for Rider Y; as yet we don't know if Kreuziger will gell with either of the Yates or Chaves or the team in general. There is no doubting his talent, the issue is whether he proves a good mix with this team. I'm NOT providing an opinion one way or the other until we have some tangible evidence to support either case
 
Re: Re:

tobydawq said:
RedheadDane said:
Strawberry_Jams said:
Pretty sure it's Yates' with the apostrophe at the end.

Wouldn't that be genetiv? As in, something own by one - or both - of them.

What? This conversation is very important! :p

Yes it would. But you can't pluralize names (which you probably know very well :p )...

The Yates twins does the trick (this is probably the only context in which that sentence is gramatically correct, by the way).

Yes you can! There are two of them, they need to be pluralized! :p
It's all just because their name ends with 's'...

(Why wouldn't The Yates twins be grammatically correct in any other context?)
 
Re: Re:

RedheadDane said:
tobydawq said:
RedheadDane said:
Strawberry_Jams said:
Pretty sure it's Yates' with the apostrophe at the end.

Wouldn't that be genetiv? As in, something own by one - or both - of them.

What? This conversation is very important! :p

Yes it would. But you can't pluralize names (which you probably know very well :p )...

The Yates twins does the trick (this is probably the only context in which that sentence is gramatically correct, by the way).

Yes you can! There are two of them, they need to be pluralized! :p
It's all just because their name ends with 's'...

(Why wouldn't The Yates twins be grammatically correct in any other context?)

I didn't think you could pluralize names, because you can't do it in Danish. But a quick check proves me wrong, and it should be the Yateses.

The sentence "The Yates twins does the trick" would be "The Yates twins do the trick" in any other context :)
 
Re: Re:

StryderHells said:
dirkprovin said:
yaco said:
Orica will not take Ewan to a GT if there is a TTT - There is one at the 2017 Vuelta which will anyway have a strong GT focus while allegedly the 2018 TDF will feature a TTT.

Therein lies another key reason why he is an increasingly problematic selection of future GTs; he is "labour intensive" for HIS goals and offers SFA in return utility to the team.
His goals are also goals for the team as he showed at this year Giro with his stage win, at least that gives the team something to take home from the race.

Oh, yes, we cannot forget that stage win !! Now lets look at it in a wider context, he "batted" 1 from 7 and in most wasn't a factor in the majority of these "at bats". Then also look at the labour expended in his service with riders on the front on most of those stages. Just not convinced he was, and will continue to be, great "bang for bucks" when you may get better results with a quick man who is stronger, more survivable, can contend over a wider range of stages ..... and is less labour intensive.

That's why I'd be far more interested in developing the likes of Cort and Edmondson than in retaining Ewan who in turn will be better served going to a team where he IS the undisputed "main man" when it comes to their GT focus and WILL received the level of support he'll need.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re: Re:

dirkprovin said:
Kokoso said:
dirkprovin said:
Kokoso said:
I expect Kreuziger having best shape of all year at the Tour, great shape. At least like last year or better. That's race he knows how to prepare for.

And, yes, that would be very nice indeed. But it will count for very little if he has failed to "gell" with the other personalities in the team .... and especially the designated GC men.
You could say that about anyone. Why are you mentioning that? I don't see people usually mentioning that blending well with the rest of the team is advantage.

For the plain and simple reason that team chemistry is very often the difference between a team success or eventual undoing. Kreuziger DID ride well in the Ardennes but as yet, the only major race he's ridden with a GC man was Pais Vasco with SY.

With most others on the team, we have clear evidence of how Rider X has performed when riding with/for Rider Y; as yet we don't know if Kreuziger will gell with either of the Yates or Chaves or the team in general.
Only Pais Vasco? And what about Tirreno-Adriatico and Tour de Romandie? Are those not major races? So far hi sacrificed himself in all this races plus one day races quite exemplary. Maybe that's why I find your comment strange.
 
Re:

yaco said:
Kreuziger is riding Dauphine with S.Yates and Chaves which will allow for the team chemistry to build. Is Chaves back in Europe ?

Going off his Twitter, he was still in Colombia on the weekend as it appeared he was watching the final stage "on the box". Would have to think he should be back in Europe in the next day or so if he hasn't already arrived
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re: Re:

movingtarget said:
Kokoso said:
I expect Kreuziger having best shape of all year at the Tour, great shape. At least like last year or better. That's race he knows how to prepare for.

2013 Tour form would be a bonus !
That would be great. On top of that Contador is no longer his teammate and in Orica they are much more flexible regarding who can ride his own race or so. At least I would like to see Kreuziger given chance to fight for a stage win.
 
Re: Re:

tobydawq said:
RedheadDane said:
tobydawq said:
RedheadDane said:
Strawberry_Jams said:
Pretty sure it's Yates' with the apostrophe at the end.

Wouldn't that be genetiv? As in, something own by one - or both - of them.

What? This conversation is very important! :p

Yes it would. But you can't pluralize names (which you probably know very well :p )...

The Yates twins does the trick (this is probably the only context in which that sentence is gramatically correct, by the way).

Yes you can! There are two of them, they need to be pluralized! :p
It's all just because their name ends with 's'...

(Why wouldn't The Yates twins be grammatically correct in any other context?)

I didn't think you could pluralize names, because you can't do it in Danish. But a quick check proves me wrong, and it should be the Yateses.

The sentence "The Yates twins does the trick" would be "The Yates twins do the trick" in any other context :)

I don't actually think you can pluralize names in English. Haven't you realised by now that I like being silly? :p