It's been a tactically naive race by Orica - I understand circumstances have conspired with Chaves returning from long term injury and S.Yates under-performing - Their mountain guys in Haig, Howson and Kreuziger are in decent form, but they've missed a chance to get into breaks and possibly steal stage wins.
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Its great to have 20/20 hindsight but very often you cannot know until you're out there on the road. Whilst both SY & Chaves lost time yesterday, they weren't major haemorrages or implosions. Yes, I WOULD've had someone in the major break today but who would you send ? A one weeker is distinctly different to a GT where you have greater scope to plot manouvres with men up the road or knowing "its all out for a stage win, stuff the GC !"
To my mind, the quiet plus story out of this race for the team has been Haig; a great ride today and I have a sneaking suspicion that he may not be far away from a top 20 overall finish. Unless the team screw it up and let him be signed by someone else, this young man will be part of their Primo GT line-up for whichever is their major GT target next season. More and higher GC finishes at WT one-weekers look on the cards; might it be that HE could be the AUS rider they groom for GC should they lose one or both Yates post 2018 ?
yaco said:
Its great to have 20/20 hindsight but very often you cannot know until you're out there on the road. Whilst both SY & Chaves lost time yesterday, they weren't major haemorrages or implosions. Yes, I WOULD've had someone in the major break today but who would you send ? A one weeker is distinctly different to a GT where you have greater scope to plot manouvres with men up the road or knowing "its all out for a stage win, stuff the GC !"
To my mind, the quiet plus story out of this race for the team has been Haig; a great ride today and I have a sneaking suspicion that he may not be far away from a top 20 overall finish. Unless the team screw it up and let him be signed by someone else, this young man will be part of their Primo GT line-up for whichever is their major GT target next season. More and higher GC finishes at WT one-weekers look on the cards; might it be that HE could be the AUS rider they groom for GC should they lose one or both Yates post 2018 ?
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True, but neither does he have 1% of the pressure and expectations landed on him. What this race IS showing that:
- next season he SHOULD become a definite member of Orica's "A team" that they send to whichever GT(s) they choose to be their major GC push
- he has the potential, over the next couple of years, to potentially ride near to or top 10 at some major WT 1 week races even if riding for a main GC man.
- he also deserves the opportunity for some further opportunities to ride as team leader in his own right
If Orica let him slip through their hands come contract time this year, then they would be guilty of gross negligence
swuzzlebubble said:
True, but neither does he have 1% of the pressure and expectations landed on him. What this race IS showing that:
- next season he SHOULD become a definite member of Orica's "A team" that they send to whichever GT(s) they choose to be their major GC push
- he has the potential, over the next couple of years, to potentially ride near to or top 10 at some major WT 1 week races even if riding for a main GC man.
- he also deserves the opportunity for some further opportunities to ride as team leader in his own right
If Orica let him slip through their hands come contract time this year, then they would be guilty of gross negligence
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Orica are far more concerned about July. I suspect that they are letting Yates and Chaves build form at their own pace.dirkprovin said:
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Agreed, they may be at least a little concerned by SY's fall-away over the past 2 days but perhaps they know more about what could be behind it.
42x16ss said:
Agreed, they may be at least a little concerned by SY's fall-away over the past 2 days but perhaps they know more about what could be behind it.
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Interesting question; SY did fall off the "GC pack" surprisingly early but he obviously was able to manage himself reasonably well given he finished little more than a minute behind Chaves. Perhaps he indicated to Kreuziger that he was going to be OK and that he could "clock off" for the day ? :Neutral:
swuzzlebubble said:
Interesting question; SY did fall off the "GC pack" surprisingly early but he obviously was able to manage himself reasonably well given he finished little more than a minute behind Chaves. Perhaps he indicated to Kreuziger that he was going to be OK and that he could "clock off" for the day ? :Neutral:
Orica keep their cards close to their chest so its unlikely you'll find if there are any injury or motivation concerns - Anyway one more stage and one more opportunity.
Re:
Disappointing certainly but I think you're over dramatising by declaring "disastrous".
Disappointing in that SY fell away from real GC contention but 13th still brings in some reasonable WT points. Disappointing in that they didn't pick up a stage win ... or even really threaten for one and for that I WOULD throw some blame towards Lapage who was overly conservative.
Chaves clearly "clocked off" early today once it was clear that he wasn't going to get back to the business end of the race and clearly this was passed onto his key lieutenants. No criticism of that from me for doing that, why waste yours and their energy on a pointless exercise.
For Chaves overall, its clear that he's still well short of top condition so its clear Vuelta becomes his prime focus. Does that mean a potential re-jig of the Tour line up with a couple of key Chaves men (Howson particularly) now switched to the Vuelta and mostly leave Kreuziger, Impey, the rouleurs/puncheurs for the Tour with SY with the latter being given a licence to have a run at certain stages if they feel up to it ? Possibly but ...what do I know ?
yaco said:
Disappointing certainly but I think you're over dramatising by declaring "disastrous".
Disappointing in that SY fell away from real GC contention but 13th still brings in some reasonable WT points. Disappointing in that they didn't pick up a stage win ... or even really threaten for one and for that I WOULD throw some blame towards Lapage who was overly conservative.
Chaves clearly "clocked off" early today once it was clear that he wasn't going to get back to the business end of the race and clearly this was passed onto his key lieutenants. No criticism of that from me for doing that, why waste yours and their energy on a pointless exercise.
For Chaves overall, its clear that he's still well short of top condition so its clear Vuelta becomes his prime focus. Does that mean a potential re-jig of the Tour line up with a couple of key Chaves men (Howson particularly) now switched to the Vuelta and mostly leave Kreuziger, Impey, the rouleurs/puncheurs for the Tour with SY with the latter being given a licence to have a run at certain stages if they feel up to it ? Possibly but ...what do I know ?
Albasini finishes 4th in a messy sprint behind Gilbert in stage 2 at the Tour of Suisse - Be interesting to see if he rides the TDF - Think Orica hold the line for the TDF and hope they win a stage - Notice no race entries for Ewan - When will he ride next ?
Interesting Verona was the only other Orica rider to finish in the peleton - An outside throw at GC.
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Realistically they'll put him back in the rack until end of July/beginning of Aug where they'll either send him to Poland (more likely) for some sprint stage or to Ride London (probably too hard). They could send him to Eneco but more likely it will be all set up for Hamburg. From there, I can't see any other WT starts unless they go to Turkey (if its run) or Guangxi. Bretagne is way too hard for him let alone the Laurentian races.
Can't see him being sent to Vuelta unless Cort is ruled out as that would be a gratuitous insult to Cort ... who in the longer term is likely to be the more compatible rider plus greater overall value to the team's future. Cort & Edmondson are the young fast guys with major classics potential Orica should be investing in rather than an undersized one-trick pony bunch sprinter. Given there's a TTT, extra incentive not to send him
If Ewan & his manager gets antsy about him not riding enough then Orica should let them seek a buy-out .... he's got a nice fat swag of WT points which would be attractive to many WT teams (although Orica has sufficient riders with nice swags that it wouldn't be a worry).
yaco said:
Realistically they'll put him back in the rack until end of July/beginning of Aug where they'll either send him to Poland (more likely) for some sprint stage or to Ride London (probably too hard). They could send him to Eneco but more likely it will be all set up for Hamburg. From there, I can't see any other WT starts unless they go to Turkey (if its run) or Guangxi. Bretagne is way too hard for him let alone the Laurentian races.
Can't see him being sent to Vuelta unless Cort is ruled out as that would be a gratuitous insult to Cort ... who in the longer term is likely to be the more compatible rider plus greater overall value to the team's future. Cort & Edmondson are the young fast guys with major classics potential Orica should be investing in rather than an undersized one-trick pony bunch sprinter. Given there's a TTT, extra incentive not to send him
If Ewan & his manager gets antsy about him not riding enough then Orica should let them seek a buy-out .... he's got a nice fat swag of WT points which would be attractive to many WT teams (although Orica has sufficient riders with nice swags that it wouldn't be a worry).
Re: Re:
Agree with this analysis. Orica was meant to be all in for GC this year - but I don't see this happening in the tdf. Whoever is best of S.Yates, Kreuziger or Chaves could probably snag a top 10, but I think the plausibility of a podium is looking pretty unrealistic.
They should recognise this now and change up - aim for Chaves winning the Vuelta with the kind of climbing team they have been building for the tdf (which does look super solid).
Tour squad should be opportunists - climbing and rouleur. And you won't like this, but drop Ewan in and see what he can do in the first week. The way things are looking, he's actually their best chance for some tour success.
dirkprovin said:
Agree with this analysis. Orica was meant to be all in for GC this year - but I don't see this happening in the tdf. Whoever is best of S.Yates, Kreuziger or Chaves could probably snag a top 10, but I think the plausibility of a podium is looking pretty unrealistic.
They should recognise this now and change up - aim for Chaves winning the Vuelta with the kind of climbing team they have been building for the tdf (which does look super solid).
Tour squad should be opportunists - climbing and rouleur. And you won't like this, but drop Ewan in and see what he can do in the first week. The way things are looking, he's actually their best chance for some tour success.
Re: Re:
I largely agree that they should basically recalibrate selections and make Vuelta their peak GC effort. Let SY ride and see if he can snag top10 and support when/where possible/needed but don't go "all in". If his legs aren't up to it, so be it. Ditto Kreuziger, if he's going OK then switch to him. Re Chaves, I'd probably tell him not to worry if he drops time early but if he's starting to feel real good late in the Tour then let him loose.
As for Tour selections; lets say SY, Chaves, Kreuziger are in. Throw in Dubridge as rouleur plus big flatland engine. I'd previously opposed having all three of Impey, Gerrans & Albasini in the one line-up but under these circumstances I'm now OK to go with it. However, I'd take Howson out of the Tour line-up and save him for the Vuelta where you will have him alongside Haig, Plaza & Verona as a climbing support unit. Less fussed about the last 2 spots.
I do, however, vehemently disagree with any suggestion of Ewan in the Tour line-up. You say he's their best chance of a stage win..... well if that's the case they well and truly have Sweet Fanny Adams of a chance !! IF he was a sprinter who was not reliant of extensive specialist support, then there's at least some case but Ewan doesn't fit that bill.
Nor do I think he's much of a chance against the Kittel's & co .... even with some support. The Giro sprint field was well short depth-wise of what will be at the Tour but even there, he only batted 1 from 8 ... and in most was comprehensively out-gunned and out-pointed. Even giving him a designated lead-out man for support isn't going to bring him into the game. The level of investment required to TRY and make him competitive would not nearly be repaid by the returns
The Hegelian said:
I largely agree that they should basically recalibrate selections and make Vuelta their peak GC effort. Let SY ride and see if he can snag top10 and support when/where possible/needed but don't go "all in". If his legs aren't up to it, so be it. Ditto Kreuziger, if he's going OK then switch to him. Re Chaves, I'd probably tell him not to worry if he drops time early but if he's starting to feel real good late in the Tour then let him loose.
As for Tour selections; lets say SY, Chaves, Kreuziger are in. Throw in Dubridge as rouleur plus big flatland engine. I'd previously opposed having all three of Impey, Gerrans & Albasini in the one line-up but under these circumstances I'm now OK to go with it. However, I'd take Howson out of the Tour line-up and save him for the Vuelta where you will have him alongside Haig, Plaza & Verona as a climbing support unit. Less fussed about the last 2 spots.
I do, however, vehemently disagree with any suggestion of Ewan in the Tour line-up. You say he's their best chance of a stage win..... well if that's the case they well and truly have Sweet Fanny Adams of a chance !! IF he was a sprinter who was not reliant of extensive specialist support, then there's at least some case but Ewan doesn't fit that bill.
Nor do I think he's much of a chance against the Kittel's & co .... even with some support. The Giro sprint field was well short depth-wise of what will be at the Tour but even there, he only batted 1 from 8 ... and in most was comprehensively out-gunned and out-pointed. Even giving him a designated lead-out man for support isn't going to bring him into the game. The level of investment required to TRY and make him competitive would not nearly be repaid by the returns
Re: Re:
I posed the same questions two months ago - Would have been easier to leave the Yates brothers at the Giro - Chaves ride the TDF for training and launch a big challenge at the Vuelta - Switch one or two of the mountain goats to the Giro and then have Ewan ride the TDF - Only give Ewan one designated rider as some of the rest of the time in riders like Impey/Hayman could help in the final.
The Hegelian said:
I posed the same questions two months ago - Would have been easier to leave the Yates brothers at the Giro - Chaves ride the TDF for training and launch a big challenge at the Vuelta - Switch one or two of the mountain goats to the Giro and then have Ewan ride the TDF - Only give Ewan one designated rider as some of the rest of the time in riders like Impey/Hayman could help in the final.
Power is a million miles away in WT races - Think Orica will need to think long and hard about a new contract - Maybe one year.
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I guess to an extent they'll be weighing him up against the next crop coming through u23yaco said:
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I don't see why they wouldn't give him another year unless he wants to leave, last year basically didn't happen so I'd judge him as a neo-pro this season and with that in mind he is doing okay for a 22 year old.
yaco said:
I don't see why they wouldn't give him another year unless he wants to leave, last year basically didn't happen so I'd judge him as a neo-pro this season and with that in mind he is doing okay for a 22 year old.
Re:
More than a tad over dramatic; he essentially lost his entire 2016 so this IS essentially his neo-pro year. Whilst I agree that he has shown very little, I think that he should be offered an extension even if not on any higher $$$. I also think that our views may be slightly distorted as we are judging him against his two other contemporaries; Haig (who had an excellent neo-pro year and continues to progress rapidly) and Edmondson (who similarly missed most of his neo-pro year albeit due to track rather than illness) who has made an excellent start to his WT career.
Firstly, 20/20 hindsight is wonderful but ultimately a purely theoretical exercise. At the point, that those decisions had to be made, they had no real knowledge of just where Chaves "as at" or "where he'd be" form and condition-wise on his return to racing.
Yes, I WOULD pull Howson from Tour and switch him to Vuelta. Ewan ..... why ??? Is giving him a lead-out man (however accomplished) going to somehow make him competitive against the industrial strength trains at the Tour ?? He is NOT Robbie McEwan with regards to a capacity to surf wheels or handle the rough stuff ...... whilst I want him gone from Orica (to somewhere where he WILL be a suitable fit), I have no real appetite for seeing riders scraped off the tarmac
yaco said:
More than a tad over dramatic; he essentially lost his entire 2016 so this IS essentially his neo-pro year. Whilst I agree that he has shown very little, I think that he should be offered an extension even if not on any higher $$$. I also think that our views may be slightly distorted as we are judging him against his two other contemporaries; Haig (who had an excellent neo-pro year and continues to progress rapidly) and Edmondson (who similarly missed most of his neo-pro year albeit due to track rather than illness) who has made an excellent start to his WT career.
yaco said:
Firstly, 20/20 hindsight is wonderful but ultimately a purely theoretical exercise. At the point, that those decisions had to be made, they had no real knowledge of just where Chaves "as at" or "where he'd be" form and condition-wise on his return to racing.
Yes, I WOULD pull Howson from Tour and switch him to Vuelta. Ewan ..... why ??? Is giving him a lead-out man (however accomplished) going to somehow make him competitive against the industrial strength trains at the Tour ?? He is NOT Robbie McEwan with regards to a capacity to surf wheels or handle the rough stuff ...... whilst I want him gone from Orica (to somewhere where he WILL be a suitable fit), I have no real appetite for seeing riders scraped off the tarmac
Re: Re:
Two more years should be plenty for a rider of Power's potential to show something.
Power came second at L'Avenir a full year younger than what Haig was when he came second. In limited opportunities since he's shown promising form at times. He deserves an extension based on superb U23 results and account of his illness.StryderHells said:
Two more years should be plenty for a rider of Power's potential to show something.
I am 90% certain Power will be offered a new contract but he needs to improve in the second half of the year - 9 minutes back today- Like to see him in a breakaway in one of the next two stages.
Mixed day for Orica today at Suisse - Another excellent ride by Albasini for 2nd, while Plaza crashed out and Durbridge was a DNF.
Mixed day for Orica today at Suisse - Another excellent ride by Albasini for 2nd, while Plaza crashed out and Durbridge was a DNF.
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Power has shown some mildly positive signs in some non WT events but he has yet to show anything of any notice in WT races nor as a climber. His TT is also less than stellar. With regards to a breakaway, yes that would be nice in principle but he's got to be able to stick with said break for some period of time.
Albasini continues to show why he has probably been one of Orica's best ever signing. Cort obviously still short of legs. However, my "hats off" award has to go to Bewley. Would any one of us believed a couple of years ago that Bewley would even attempt to get into a breakaway on a stage with some significant climbing, let alone be able to stick with it until catch was inevitable ??
Hell no, we'd have probably thought he'd be hailing a cab instead !! :lol: A much changed and much improved rider, well done big fella !!
yaco said:
Power has shown some mildly positive signs in some non WT events but he has yet to show anything of any notice in WT races nor as a climber. His TT is also less than stellar. With regards to a breakaway, yes that would be nice in principle but he's got to be able to stick with said break for some period of time.
Albasini continues to show why he has probably been one of Orica's best ever signing. Cort obviously still short of legs. However, my "hats off" award has to go to Bewley. Would any one of us believed a couple of years ago that Bewley would even attempt to get into a breakaway on a stage with some significant climbing, let alone be able to stick with it until catch was inevitable ??
Hell no, we'd have probably thought he'd be hailing a cab instead !! :lol: A much changed and much improved rider, well done big fella !!TRENDING THREADS
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