Johan Bruyneel and his crazy scheme

[Mike Schatzman]

"]I'd also like to know what this is doing in Professional road racing. Nothing to do with road racing, nothing to do with professionals.[/QUOTE]

Uh, let's see how simple I can make this for you, because I assume you like to keep your thought processes VERY basic:
I think Bruyneel, and his proposed abandoning of the current UCI PROFESSIONAL ROAD structure, LA, Dave Chauner, Tailwind Sports, and over 5 professional teams (Navigators, Lipton, Astana, etc.) makes this a professional road racing topic. I would like it moved back immediately.
Mike Schatzman

 

[Mike Schatzman]

If Johann sees opportunity in promoting cycling in New Mexico I see no issue.

As far as social problems in Albuquerque, maybe if some became more health or sports oriented , they might pursue education and or sports, perhaps even cycling?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albuquerque,_New_Mexico

JB did not promote anything, and left no legacy other than a large group of people scratching their heads wondering why they ever thought this was a normal idea.
His team -Atana - got over 100k worth of free medical testing form a local hospital that regularly turns away patients who show up with the nerve of being seriously injured without health insurance. But his team got FREE EKG's and VO2 MAX tests.
and over a million in a free training camp.
Today, there is NO velodrome, no JB Cycling Academy,
NOTHING. He promised a "cycling city", and "cycling university" and a program to give bikes to poor kids that lasted all of one year. After he exploited the city he moved on.
Keep in mind, without the LIVESTRONG franchise, he would never have been able to pull this off in a city that cares very very very little cycling in general.
It was his connection to LA that allowed him to exploit a city in a very poor state to get what he wanted - money to Moerman, free training camps, and a future "Bruyneel Cycling City" that was delusional and ridiculous in every way.
Nobody cares because cycling is a ridiculous fringe sport that nobody cares about anyone.
Now that LA is gone, cycling will shrivel up and die in the USA, but at the same time,
before we sit and read about Johan Bruyneel changing the structure of cycling (which he already did by making a mockery of the sport) - let's ask ourselves what kind of person would rip off taxpayers, promising them a Lance Armstrong inspired super cycling utopia, only to run away when the real estate developers moved on to greener pastures.

Zero accountability, zero honesty - these are the people at the top of the sport of cycling, and the "CLINIC" is full of people obsessed about why the sport is corrupt and cancerous?
This forum is %99 posters that seem to interested in only the homoerotic and vicarious aspects of looking at pictures of fit, tan and sweaty young men in spandex - again, nothing wrong with that - but when someone comes along with a post that is actually ABOUT something, something real, you might want to keep your ghey snarky comments to yourself
Mike Schatzman

 

[TERMINATOR]

What is your issue with velodromes anyway?

My "issue" with velodromes is all the fraud associated with them, particularly when it comes to bilking taxpayers for the millions of dollars these boondoggles cost to construct (or in the case of the Albuquerque velodrome, not construct).

And then there's the fact that not a single velodrome in the United States turns a profit, yet all the people who champion their construction (i.e. Chauner) give these over-hyped presentations to town councils about how they will bring in $40 million/year, create hundreds of jobs, and have long-term viability as a revenue generator for the city.

The level and scope of the lying is phenomenal. So that's "my issue" with velodromes.

 

[TERMINATOR]

JB did not promote anything, and left no legacy other than a large group of people scratching their heads wondering why they ever thought this was a normal idea.
His team -Atana - got over 100k worth of free medical testing form a local hospital that regularly turns away patients who show up with the nerve of being seriously injured without health insurance. But his team got FREE EKG's and VO2 MAX tests.
and over a million in a free training camp.
Today, there is NO velodrome, no JB Cycling Academy,
NOTHING. He promised a "cycling city", and "cycling university" and a program to give bikes to poor kids that lasted all of one year. After he exploited the city he moved on.
Keep in mind, without the LIVESTRONG franchise, he would never have been able to pull this off in a city that cares very very very little cycling in general.
It was his connection to LA that allowed him to exploit a city in a very poor state to get what he wanted - money to Moerman, free training camps, and a future "Bruyneel Cycling City" that was delusional and ridiculous in every way.
Nobody cares because cycling is a ridiculous fringe sport that nobody cares about anyone.
Now that LA is gone, cycling will shrivel up and die in the USA, but at the same time,
before we sit and read about Johan Bruyneel changing the structure of cycling (which he already did by making a mockery of the sport) - let's ask ourselves what kind of person would rip off taxpayers, promising them a Lance Armstrong inspired super cycling utopia, only to run away when the real estate developers moved on to greener pastures.

Zero accountability, zero honesty - these are the people at the top of the sport of cycling, and the "CLINIC" is full of people obsessed about why the sport is corrupt and cancerous?
This forum is %99 posters that seem to interested in only the homoerotic and vicarious aspects of looking at pictures of fit, tan and sweaty young men in spandex - again, nothing wrong with that - but when someone comes along with a post that is actually ABOUT something, something real, you might want to keep your ghey snarky comments to yourself
Mike Schatzman

No disagreements here, Mike. My guess is Bruyneel was misled by Chauner's superb pump-and-dump talk (without the disclosure of the dump side, of course), and was suckered into the maelstrom by hype. I'm sure Chauner covered his tracks and told Bruyneel the blame lay elsewhere besides him.

But the main inertia behind the fraud of this thing has got to be laid at Chauner's feet. He was the guy who the City hired to oversee all aspects of its planning, development, and logistics.

http://www.abqjournal.com/go/460784go05-18-06.htm

And now the P.T. Barnum of cycling has folded up his tent in Albuquerque and is now setting up the next freak show to his traveling circus in Coatesville, Penn., the arson capital of the U.S.:

http://www.dailylocal.com/articles/2011/02/23/news/srv0000010995120.txt

If you read the fine print, it talks about state grant money and feasibility studies....that's all taxpayer money that goes to Chauner's velodrome group. This Coatesville velodrome has been in the works for years but the initial investor (a dentist) pulled the plug. Chauner then found a new sucker, so it's full speed ahead on this Coatesville Velodrome crazy train.

 

[Hugh Januss]

You sound like the type of person who only reads the comic section in a Sunday New York Times.

My "issue" with velodromes is all the fraud associated with them, particularly when it comes to bilking taxpayers for the millions of dollars these boondoggles cost to construct (or in the case of the Albuquerque velodrome, not construct).

And then there's the fact that not a single velodrome in the United States turns a profit, yet all the people who champion their construction (i.e. Chauner) give these over-hyped presentations to town councils about how they will bring in $40 million/year, create hundreds of jobs, and have long-term viability as a revenue generator for the city.

The level and scope of the lying is phenomenal. So that's "my issue" with velodromes.

How many city park baseball diamonds "turn a profit"?

 

[Mike Schatzman]

How many city park baseball diamonds "turn a profit"?

Very bad question.
How many city baseball parks cost ten million dollars, are promoted by Babe Ruth, and then are never built? Particularly one that is promised to be "world class" and generate millions a year in tourism dollars?
When a city builds a "world class" venue to generate tourism dollars, and then the taxpayers pay ten million to build it, and then it's never even built, maybe someone - with more developed critical thinking skill than yours - should start asking questions.
Where is the Bruyneel Cycling Academy?
What is a cycling academy?
Where did ten million in NM tax payers money go? How was it spent?
These are just for starters, the funny thing is - the money is spent and long gone and there is nobody around willing to answer these questions.
The funnier thing is that some people are unwilling to even HEAR these questions.

 

[Mike Schatzman]

JB ever accomplishing anything....


All I can see is a tin cup being clanked against steel bars. Can't do much from in there, especially while puckering.

________________________________________________________
I honestly can't decipher this creepy gibberish, some kind of jail house anal rape joke?
This is really the most homoerotic group I've ever seen,
A fifteen word reply that is - from what I can tell - about being raped in a prison?
What on earth does this have to do with the topic?
Meanwhile, the moderators, who seem to be equally *** and anal oriented,
move the topic of Johan Bruyneel, a professional road racing coach, to "general", while leaving strange drivel like this?
RBR used to have some strange birds, but this is really an uncomfortable place to have to read about bike racing.

 

[TERMINATOR]

How many city park baseball diamonds "turn a profit"?

City park baseball diamonds are public use and anyone can use them for FREE. Chauner's velodromes are NOT for public use, nor are they FREE. They are pitched as private facilities designed as a for-profit business (where Chauner and his minions keep the profit). It's like asking taxpayers to build a built-in swimming pool in your back yard.

And baseball diamonds don't cost $10 million to build either. There's so many things wrong with your comparison.

 

[TERMINATOR]

Simple way to make Landis stop bugging Lance. Lance should allow any and all of his blood samples to be re-tested. He's got nothing to hide and afterwards, even LeMond would stop talking smack.

BTW, WADA labs don't need Lance's permission to test his old blood samples.

 

[Mike Schatzman]

Final Try

From what you've said I can't see how Bruyneel has done anything wrong except from being enthusiastic when approached by these guys with their plan. After all they wanted him involved in the project not the other way around.

Ok, I've been trying to make this clear for a long time, maybe I don't write clearly enough:
The velodrome was ALREADY PAID FOR, PLANNED, DESIGNED and READY TO BE BUILT in Albuquerque next to the baseball stadium. They did built a BMX track there. It's great, but it isn't a velodrome and did not cost much money.
Instead of building it there, as planned, Bruyneel convinced the city to wait until his "cycling academy" was built on a development property (subdivision) named Mesa Del Sol. Then they could build it there, where he wanted it. In return, many other things were promised and exchanged, including Lance Armstrong and Astana riders competing in Gila - this is about one of fifty things I could write about here, but again, this gets long and kinda boring, so..
Mesa Del Sol was never completed because of the housing bubble.
The velodrome was never - and will never be built.
The ten million is gone, spent on other projects and into the pocket of many people in the name of expenses.
The local news reporters are ignorant about cycling - they think the BMX track is a velodrome, they call it the velodrome and wonder what the heck I am talking about.
The original wooden Pan-Am track is in somebody's kitchen, the new concrete track disappeared in the imaginations of a bunch of people that deny any of this even took place.

As far as how I should format this for mass consumption, I could care less, if the city of Albuquerque is cool with blowing 10 million on a fantasy velodrome, than whatever.
Many people were flown into Albuquerque from all over the world and drank some cheap champagne and got to shake hands with the mayor and train in some freezing cold weather.
Why I posted was simple - this is the guy that is going to orchestrate the reorganization of the UCI, and he is corrupt, not just involving allegations of doping, but financially too.
Bruyneel needs to explain why there is no Johan Bruyneel Cycling Academy in Albuquerque and where all that money went.
He wasn't just "giving his name" to the project - it was his idea to build the velodrome at his "cycling academy", and deprived Albuquerque of the municipal velodrome we paid for with tax payers money.
I don't think anyone get's it - he wanted to make a cycling city, that he ruled, in the desert, with a cycling university, with him as president, in the middle of the New Mexico desert - the then convinced the mayor to delay construction of the veledrome in the city, so it could be built in HIS CITY, which of course - obeying the laws of reason and reality - never came to fruition.
I can't make it any more simple or try to explain it again....
Nobody cares, and yeah, I guess that's why people like to rip off government, there is no accountability when everything explodes.
Just a sad story, the money went **** into thin air, and Albuquerque doesn't have a velodrome that was planned and then paid for.
Bruyneel was just trying to "promote" cycling, makes total sense - although I am afraid have to be one of those people that actually has to say I am being sarcastic here.

Finally, he was promoting healthy lifestyles in Albuquerque that one year he was going to build a city here,
he started a nice program called "Johan's Kids" where he gave poor kids in Albuquerque free bikes so they could stop being all fat and smoking crack like their parents.
Problem is, after that first year, after he collected all his money, Johan never came back to Albuquerque to visit his kids. I'm sure their parents just sold the bikes to pawn shops for meth and the kids wondered what happened to that weird Belgian guy that we were forced to take pictures with?

So my question is this: why doesn't Johan visit his kids anymore? They want more road bikes and to participate in a photo-op with him and the mayor, they really enjoyed that one day like five years ago.

 

[fatandfast]

Dear Mike, when you started this thread the figure was @60k squandered by some cat3 car salesman. Big over promiser, even bigger under deliverer. There is no 10,000,000 in missing cash. Lots of fund raising things go this way just nobody talks about it.
Katrina relief, Jerry Lewis telethon and aid to Haiti all have the same problem. People promise money that they never send. JB may have piddled some cash on recon trips back and forth to NM. 10 mill, no way. To pretend that a velodrome is a big part of any academy format is a pipe dream. Track racing at every level is losing ground.

You asked the question, I guess a kind of question, JB needs to explain why there is no academy in NM..the explanation is it is not cost effective. Start w the airport, surrounding hotels. Cycling camps can live and die w the election of a new sheriff. Just one bad accident or public outrage about slowed traffic can make riding in a group a no go. Remember that the cop[s issued traffic tickets to pros at this years world championships in Australia.

Not so many miles away from you in Winslow,Holbrook and Tucson there is biching about cyclists coming to town for training. Living in the SW for most of my life you and I know that once the temps are above 100 nobody wants to golf w the support of a refreshment wagon on every fairway and tee box. Racing or training on a bicycle in August anywhere in the desert is insane.

I share your disappointment in not having another velodrome between I-40 and I-10. I raced at lots of places in S.Cal and did Texas and Louisiana while going to races on the E.Coast. Wooden Tracks are crazy to maintain and even harder to multi-use. Lots of velodromes are used by inline skaters, skateboarders, Youth soccer, Radio control vehicle users. flea markets. There will never be another 10 million dollar cycling anything built in the US.

Maybe rather than look to Johan for answers you should ring or write Kevin Costner about your field of dreams. I sometimes ride to NJ and take the ferry back into NYC. If you want to see sports disappointment you should see Xanadu. They say they need @250 million more just to open the doors

 

[flicker]

My "issue" with velodromes is all the fraud associated with them, particularly when it comes to bilking taxpayers for the millions of dollars these boondoggles cost to construct (or in the case of the Albuquerque velodrome, not construct).

And then there's the fact that not a single velodrome in the United States turns a profit, yet all the people who champion their construction (i.e. Chauner) give these over-hyped presentations to town councils about how they will bring in $40 million/year, create hundreds of jobs, and have long-term viability as a revenue generator for the city.

The level and scope of the lying is phenomenal. So that's "my issue" with velodromes.

We have a velodrome here where we live, 1 hour drive from my home in San Jose,(Hellyer Park). I do not use it as I don't like driving to ride my bike.
However, it is a useable track, but not of very high quality.
I do not know of any fraud associated with the track.
The only other track I know of is in Guadalajara Mexico. When I rode it in the 70s it was beautiful, high banking, underground dressing rooms, large covered stands,and Cinneli donated many bikes to promote high quality competition. It was in the middle of a sports park, with many other sporting venues. 333meter track, concrete.
As far as Chauner, he raced when I did, and I never heard a bad thing about him, I guess he was an olympian.
I guess if you have issue with track cycling I would take it up with USA cycling, specifically, Eric Heiden, Sheila Young, or Taylor Phinneys mom.
Rather than trash Alburquerque, Chauner and Bruyneel, why not make an effort to become proactive and promote track cycling yourself. If you have the energy to blog here, use the energy positively.

 

[Hugh Januss]

City park baseball diamonds are public use and anyone can use them for FREE. Chauner's velodromes are NOT for public use, nor are they FREE. They are pitched as private facilities designed as a for-profit business (where Chauner and his minions keep the profit). It's like asking taxpayers to build a built-in swimming pool in your back yard.

And baseball diamonds don't cost $10 million to build either. There's so many things wrong with your comparison.

OK, maybe we got off on the wrong foot here. I have no idea whether Chauner is legit or not, all I know about him is I used to race with him.
I was only objecting to the notion that a sporting facility has to turn a profit in order to be worthy of public funds, that is a good way of ensuring that no kid is ever exposed to anything other than baseball and football.
How many millions do you think cities float in bond issues for pro stadiums so that millionaire owners can pay millionaire players obscene amounts to chase a ball around?
On the one hand you point out that Chauner "keeps all the profit" and then you claim none of the tracks have ever turned a profit. Guess it is not so bad then that Chauner is keeping all of nothing for himself.

As to your other post, anyone could see that I was quoting someone else. In other words it was not my statement.

 

[DirtyWorks]

City park baseball diamonds are public use and anyone can use them for FREE. Chauner's velodromes are NOT for public use, nor are they FREE. They are pitched as private facilities designed as a for-profit business (where Chauner and his minions keep the profit). It's like asking taxpayers to build a built-in swimming pool in your back yard.

And baseball diamonds don't cost $10 million to build either. There's so many things wrong with your comparison

Let's clarify something.

Most places I've been public park services are not free. If you want to have a game, you go to the park office, reserve your time and pay a nominal fee. $40 in my area. This is same procedure applies for other park services, like reserving space for a birthday party.

National parks are not free. State parks in my congested area are not free. Nominal use fees are the norm.

The name calling does not contribute anything.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Where is the Bruyneel Cycling Academy?
What is a cycling academy?
Where did ten million in NM tax payers money go? How was it spent?
These are just for starters, the funny thing is - the money is spent and long gone and there is nobody around willing to answer these questions.
The funnier thing is that some people are unwilling to even HEAR these questions.

All good questions for which you need to provide answers to a news outlet IF you really want the story to reach a media outlet.

No one in the media is going to do the dirty work. No one. P1ss1ng off city elders for a risky story is not the way a profitable media business works. Repackaging pre-digested content is the current profitable media model.

If you want the story to reach a larger audience, you have to do most of the work. Part of that work is retelling the same story over and over and over again because people resist the idea of corruption in their government. The regulars in The Clinic know what it's like.

In cycling sometimes people use the word 'pain cave' to describe what you have to do to get fast(er). Doing this story so many people can wrap their little minds (mine included) around it will entail a certain kind of 'pain cave' of your own.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Rather than trash Alburquerque, Chauner and Bruyneel, why not make an effort to become proactive and promote track cycling yourself. If you have the energy to blog here, use the energy positively.

I actually agree with what you are saying except for the 'rather than trash...'.

That's a false choice. It's not "do something good or do nothing." Lots of velodromes are run without controversy over several generations, all over the country. If people have done something under the guise of a 'public good' with USD $10 million of public funds gone unaccounted, then it deserves investigation. If laws were broken, then law enforcement needs to get involved. Laws are only useful if they are enforced. That's why most people obey speed limits.

Finally, the thing about riding a track like the one in San Jose is it's easier to go from a track like that to a modern 250m steep banked track. Encino in Southern California is similar. In many ways, you are almost better off.

 

[jaylew]

Ok, enough with the name-calling, guys.

 

[flicker]

I actually agree with what you are saying except for the 'rather than trash...'.

That's a false choice. It's not "do something good or do nothing." Lots of velodromes are run without controversy over several generations, all over the country. If people have done something under the guise of a 'public good' with USD $10 million of public funds gone unaccounted, then it deserves investigation. If laws were broken, then law enforcement needs to get involved. Laws are only useful if they are enforced. That's why most people obey speed limits.

Finally, the thing about riding a track like the one in San Jose is it's easier to go from a track like that to a modern 250m steep banked track. Encino in Southern California is similar. In many ways, you are almost better off.

I agree, seriously graft should not be allowed. I do not cover for that. If you are serious and it is not personal, take action. I just like to check myself.

 

[TERMINATOR]

We have a velodrome here where we live, 1 hour drive from my home in San Jose,(Hellyer Park). I do not use it as I don't like driving to ride my bike.
However, it is a useable track, but not of very high quality.
I do not know of any fraud associated with the track.
The only other track I know of is in Guadalajara Mexico. When I rode it in the 70s it was beautiful, high banking, underground dressing rooms, large covered stands,and Cinneli donated many bikes to promote high quality competition. It was in the middle of a sports park, with many other sporting venues. 333meter track, concrete.
As far as Chauner, he raced when I did, and I never heard a bad thing about him, I guess he was an olympian.
I guess if you have issue with track cycling I would take it up with USA cycling, specifically, Eric Heiden, Sheila Young, or Taylor Phinneys mom.
Rather than trash Alburquerque, Chauner and Bruyneel, why not make an effort to become proactive and promote track cycling yourself. If you have the energy to blog here, use the energy positively.

Being critical is positive energy.

Besides, I didn't "trash" Chauner, Bruyneel or anyone else. They trashed themselves with their own behavior. All I did is try to accurately state what they did and what they state to the media and town councils when they promote these things as having great financial stability. Your lack of critical insight into how velodromes are promoted and misrepresented to cities in order to siphon public tax dollars is impressive.

Two, I don't want to promote track cycling. I hate track cycling (as do most people judging by the poor attendance at both the LA velodrome and Trexlertown).

Three, USA Cycling, Eric Heiden and Sheila Young don't "own" track cycling or velodromes. Why are you even bringing them into the mix of what was a very specific thread about this velodrome scam in Albuquerque? You may as well throw in Nelson Vails and Major Taylor while you're at it because they have just as little to do with the thread as the others.

Thanks for sharing with us that "you never heard a bad thing about Chauner" when you raced with him. Yeah, like the peloton is a working roundtree group of top investigative reporters. That must mean he is completely on the up-and-up with everything he does 30 years later. NOT.

You must also not know who Gord Fraser is:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2003/fraservsthreshold

http://velonews.competitor.com/2003/06/road/why-gord-fraser-and-health-net-wont-be-in-philly_4038

 

[TERMINATOR]

On the one hand you point out that Chauner "keeps all the profit" and then you claim none of the tracks have ever turned a profit. Guess it is not so bad then that Chauner is keeping all of nothing for himself.

Great question. You are correct, the velodromes never turn a profit. What Chauner keeps for himself as profit is the taxpayer's money that is sunk into these velodrome deals he peddles. Deals that are peddled using inflated numbers fabricated out of thin air.

Chauner makes hundreds of thousands of dollars through consultation fees and by conducting feasibility studies. He then gets investors and cities to bankroll the project and rakes it in until the cash flow stops - which inevitably occurs once they realize the entire concept is bogus. So Chauner ends up walking away from these things with plenty profit even though the tracks never turn one.

It's called the IBG swindle ("Ill Be Gone" by the time the suckers find out they've been swindled).

Here, you might want to try some remedial reading on the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_vs._the_Monorail

 

[TERMINATOR]

JB did not promote anything, and left no legacy other than a large group of people scratching their heads wondering why they ever thought this was a normal idea.
His team -Atana - got over 100k worth of free medical testing form a local hospital that regularly turns away patients who show up with the nerve of being seriously injured without health insurance. But his team got FREE EKG's and VO2 MAX tests.
and over a million in a free training camp.
Today, there is NO velodrome, no JB Cycling Academy,
NOTHING. He promised a "cycling city", and "cycling university" and a program to give bikes to poor kids that lasted all of one year. After he exploited the city he moved on.

Just curious - does the cycling university Bruyneel promised include a Master's degree program in how to dope and escape detection by WADA labs? Or is that only taught at the Lance Armstrong University?

 

[UncleChainwhip]

schatzy! wayta go.....i live for this stuff.....finally lured me out after years of lurking

 

[flicker]

Being critical is positive energy.

Besides, I didn't "trash" Chauner, Bruyneel or anyone else. They trashed themselves with their own behavior. All I did is try to accurately state what they did and what they state to the media and town councils when they promote these things as having great financial stability. Your lack of critical insight into how velodromes are promoted and misrepresented to cities in order to siphon public tax dollars is impressive.

Two, I don't want to promote track cycling. I hate track cycling (as do most people judging by the poor attendance at both the LA velodrome and Trexlertown).

Three, USA Cycling, Eric Heiden and Sheila Young don't "own" track cycling or velodromes. Why are you even bringing them into the mix of what was a very specific thread about this velodrome scam in Albuquerque? You may as well throw in Nelson Vails and Major Taylor while you're at it because they have just as little to do with the thread as the others.

Thanks for sharing with us that "you never heard a bad thing about Chauner" when you raced with him. Yeah, like the peloton is a working roundtree group of top investigative reporters. That must mean he is completely on the up-and-up with everything he does 30 years later. NOT.

You must also not know who Gord Fraser is:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2003/fraservsthreshold

http://velonews.competitor.com/2003/06/road/why-gord-fraser-and-health-net-wont-be-in-philly_4038

Thank you for schooling me on Chauner. I guess now the only thing I can say about him is he honors the age old tradition of cycling promotion and all other promotions. As P.J Barnum so succintly stated "There is a sucker born every minute."

 

[Black-Balled]

"]I'd also like to know what this is doing in Professional road racing. Nothing to do with road racing, nothing to do with professionals.

Uh, let's see how simple I can make this for you, because I assume you like to keep your thought processes VERY basic:
I think Bruyneel, and his proposed abandoning of the current UCI PROFESSIONAL ROAD structure, LA, Dave Chauner, Tailwind Sports, and over 5 professional teams (Navigators, Lipton, Astana, etc.) makes this a professional road racing topic. I would like it moved back immediately.
Mike Schatzman

Shut IT!!!

 

[Marva32]

Let's clarify something.

Most places I've been public park services are not free. If you want to have a game, you go to the park office, reserve your time and pay a nominal fee. $40 in my area. This is same procedure applies for other park services, like reserving space for a birthday party.

National parks are not free. State parks in my congested area are not free. Nominal use fees are the norm.

The name calling does not contribute anything.

Generally speaking, public parks, at least at the municipal level, are free and available to the public at any time during the day (many have certain hours when the park is 'closed'). People can go and have a game any time they want. Yes, if you want to reserve a specific field at a specific time, then you would have to pay a fee. That makes sense, as the group is setting up a time to exclude the rest of the public.