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Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

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VayaVayaVaya

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PhiLiz said:
Yeah, pretty much. It's not Dawg levels of pathetic (there aren't many on that level) but it's still a huge leap from being a decent prospect to the watts robot he's now.
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I’m not the historian many are, but can someone explain to me how Vingegaard’s transformation isn’t every bit as ridiculous as Froome’s?
  • Vingegaard had a clear advantage in growing up and racing in Europe; Froome was messing around in Africa while getting a degree
  • Vingegaard was 46th, 1:57:xx back in his only GT before the 2021 Tour, at age 24 at the 2020 Vuelta, while getting 105th (behind Chris Froome post-crash!!) in the only ITT
  • The next year he suddenly was 2nd in Tour of the Basque Countey and 2nd in the Tour, getting 3rd in both ITTs
  • Froome was 36th and 1:15:xx back in the 2009 Giro, also at age 24, while getting 32nd and 34th in the two ITTs
  • Two years later, after joining Team Sky, he was 2nd at the Vuelta (1st officially) while getting 2nd in the ITT
 
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PhiLiz

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VayaVayaVaya said:
I’m not the historian many are, but can someone explain to me how Vingegaard’s transformation isn’t every bit as ridiculous as Froome’s?
  • Vingegaard had a clear advantage in growing up and racing in Europe; Froome was messing around in Africa while getting a degree
  • Vingegaard was 46th, 1:57:xx back in his only GT before the 2021 Tour, at age 24 at the 2020 Vuelta, while getting 105th (behind Chris Froome post-crash!!) in the only ITT
  • The next year he suddenly was 2nd in Tour of the Basque Countey and 2nd in the Tour, getting 3rd in both ITTs
  • Froome was 36th and 1:15:xx back in the 2009 Giro, also at age 24, while getting 32nd and 34th in the two ITTs
  • Two years later, after joining Team Sky, he was 2nd at the Vuelta (1st officially) while getting 2nd in the ITT
Click to expand...
There are other factors like the total lack of results in under 23 which Vingo ocasionnaly had. Nothing that justifies him being at this level, but showing some promise. The Dawg has none. Careers don't start at the pro level.

Then, and this obviously subjective, the Dawg didn't even look like a pro cyclist. He was so inefficient on the bike (still is) that looked comically like a lab rat with huge watts and zero technique. Vingo is also a bad but not on those levels.

There's also a non marginal (kek) age difference between their explosions.

That being said, we're splitting hairs. None of them has any business showing a world beater level. I just think Dawg is worse, but doesn't make Vingo any more believable.
 
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Netserk

Netserk

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VayaVayaVaya said:
I’m not the historian many are, but can someone explain to me how Vingegaard’s transformation isn’t every bit as ridiculous as Froome’s?
  • Vingegaard had a clear advantage in growing up and racing in Europe; Froome was messing around in Africa while getting a degree
  • Vingegaard was 46th, 1:57:xx back in his only GT before the 2021 Tour, at age 24 at the 2020 Vuelta, while getting 105th (behind Chris Froome post-crash!!) in the only ITT
  • The next year he suddenly was 2nd in Tour of the Basque Countey and 2nd in the Tour, getting 3rd in both ITTs
  • Froome was 36th and 1:15:xx back in the 2009 Giro, also at age 24, while getting 32nd and 34th in the two ITTs
  • Two years later, after joining Team Sky, he was 2nd at the Vuelta (1st officially) while getting 2nd in the ITT
Click to expand...
Vingegaard was 23 in that Vuelta. In his first pro season at age 22 he won the queen stage of Tour de Pologne (after which he led the race) in a sprint against Hindley and Sivakov (both similar age to Vingegaard).

A result Froome wouldn't surpass before his sudden breakout 2011 Vuelta in his 4th pro season at age 26.

[EDIT] From the race thread here back then after the stage (if you read the next page, you will get an idea of how he bottled the overall win):
Valv.Piti said:
True, but none of them have really performed on this level before. But I guess that goes to show how good Danish cycling is atm. Vingegaard was just the best rider in the peloton today. His season hasn't been great, but he has shown flashes, for example on the last stage of Pais Vasco. That stage was raced brutally hard and was actually very similar to this one with regards to length and difficulty. But I had never seen this one coming.

LS: Oh yeah, I should have known better!
Click to expand...

You can watch the stage here: https://tiz-cycling.io/video/tour-of-poland-2019-stage-6-full-stage/?tape=3 (it missed the climb just before the video begins where Vingegaard forced the selection)
 
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Rackham

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Netserk said:
Vingegaard was 23 in that Vuelta. In his first pro season at age 22 he won the queen stage of Tour de Pologne (after which he led the race) in a sprint against Hindley and Sivakov (both similar age to Vingegaard).

A result Froome wouldn't surpass before his sudden breakout 2011 Vuelta in his 4th pro season at age 26.

[EDIT] From the race thread here back then after the stage (if you read the next page, you will get an idea of how he bottled the overall win):


You can watch the stage here: https://tiz-cycling.io/video/tour-of-poland-2019-stage-6-full-stage/?tape=3 (it missed the climb just before the video begins where Vingegaard forced the selection)
Click to expand...

Maybe pro cycling teams should compile a recruitment list of all riders who once-upon-a-time in xyz small race beat Jai Hindley in a sprint?

Guaranteed GT champion & watts monster! Makes me wonder what the hell happened with Tao Geoghegan Hart.

I mean let's be serious for a second, i.e. what are we even justifying here? For Vingegaard to be stronger than he used to be due to training + blablabla whatever other expertise a pro cyclist gets in a really professional team, sure. But to arrive in this TdF with what looks like superior watts over Pogacar aka the new Merckx of pro cycling? No. It's insane. He could at least sell the 'pain' on Mende better, instead of looking like he's effortlessly riding on a flat road.

And yes, it's right up there with Froomey on the WTF list (& 2007's Rasmussen, actually). He even shares Froome's awkwardness on a bike (maybe not as pronounced, but still evident), with sh*t spatial awareness & the feeling he's about to f-up something (panicking is a thing with him). Watching Vingegaard recklessly crash into Vlasov & Izagirre in Itzulia or foolishly panic over his bike swap on the cobbled stage in this TdF was like watching a cadet, except with watts he has no business having.

And the thread title isn't entirely correct either. Vingegaard is not 'alpha', he's a cyborg. His team is definitely 'alpha', whereas he's just the cycling equivalent of Dolph Lundgren in Universal Soldier. He's a Jumbo lab creation with the team car serving as a brain & watts which are a result of the team's science department. This TdF is the craziest stuff I've seen since Froome. So yes, he's right up there with him (which figures, considering mimicking Sky was always Jumbo's ultimate dream).

I was never a true believer in Vingegaard winning the TdF because I've watched pretty much all his races since 2020, even with the understanding he was getting better. But what we're seeing here in this TdF ruins the illusion of 'effort' in achieving anything. His progress isn't just 'not normal', it's impossible.
 
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Netserk

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Rackham said:
I was never a true believer in Vingegaard winning the TdF because I've watched pretty much all his races since 2020, even with the understanding he was getting better. But what we're seeing here in this TdF ruins the illusion of 'effort' in achieving anything. His progress isn't just 'not normal', it's impossible.
Click to expand...
Really? I could understand that reaction last year, but given the breakout he had last year and how he performed in the Tour, this year has not come out of nowhere. Last year was the shocker, this year it's all about his absolute level and how that compares to the past quarter of a century.
 
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PhiLiz

PhiLiz

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Eeslliw said:
I am not that surprised he is the best climber in the high mountains (given his low weight) but how good he is on small hills this TDF (up to 10 min effort). The stage where Wout won solo, he was very close to stay with him. I would never imagine he could be that good on 3 min 7% climb.
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Yeah, that's even more impressive on top of everything else. One thing is a 30/40m effort but to stay with Pogacar on small climbs where the Slovenian has been elite while previously being kinda of nowhere in this type of efforts is the more amazing thing from 21 to 22.
 
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noob

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Eeslliw said:
I am not that surprised he is the best climber in the high mountains (given his low weight) but how good he is on small hills this TDF (up to 10 min effort). The stage where Wout won solo, he was very close to stay with him. I would never imagine he could be that good on 3 min 7% climb.
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Same. The sprinting, all the explosivity with that tiny body is what defies natural laws in my book too. That's what is really really different from last year.
 
PhiLiz

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PhiLiz said:
Vingo thinks today was easy on the last climb -
https://twitter.com/x/status/1549778981238472706
View: https://twitter.com/Ddozmoe/status/1549778981238472706?s=20&t=Sl52I1IifoN8p-0vGvmKFQ


Mind you, the second to last climb was ridden at a pace that bear a Pantani, Ullrich and Virenque record from 1997.
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Ok, lol. If he actually said that, it makes him quite a douchebag in my book. If you distance everyone by minutes because you are the latest chemical optimization wonder, you can at least show some modesty. On the other hand, he doesn’t have to be liked by me and there are for sure fans that like this sort of trash-talk.
 
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