Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[ElDesordenado]

He was in Denmark in a slow team, doing a part time. 2019 was the first year at Visma.

He improved faster at Visma, despite some issues with covid and some injuries in the tendons, and psychological issues.

Yeah, but even before the 2021 TdF he was not considered a GC contender. He was a domestique. The Danish national team coach, a month or two before the 2021 TdF, called him 'a man for future grand tour GC's''. Then, out of the blue, he finished 2nd that year, and two year's later he did the miracle time trial; according to some ex-riders the best in TdF history.

That's a pretty speedy progress - kind of like Froome back in the day

 

[Froome]

Yeah, but even before the 2021 TdF he was not considered a GC contender. He was a domestique. The Danish national team coach, a month or two before the 2021 TdF, called him 'a man for future grand tour GC's''. Then, out of the blue, he finished 2nd that year, and two year's later he did the miracle time trial; according to some ex-riders the best in TdF history.

That's a pretty speedy progress - kind of like Froome back in the day

Outstanding genetics+ responding well to the "programme" is always the key.

 

[Netserk]

Yeah, but even before the 2021 TdF he was not considered a GC contender. He was a domestique. The Danish national team coach, a month or two before the 2021 TdF, called him 'a man for future grand tour GC's''. Then, out of the blue, he finished 2nd that year, and two year's later he did the miracle time trial; according to some ex-riders the best in TdF history.

That's a pretty speedy progress - kind of like Froome back in the day

Vingegaard had better results in his first season with Jumbo when he was 22 than Froome had over 3½ years before his breakthrough Vuelta.

His season up to his breakthrough in the Tour in 2021 was also starkly more successful than Froome's 2011 season before the Vuelta.

Froome had no contract for the next year at that point and was deemed the least promising rider on Sky's squad, and IIRC his agent tried to get him a minimum-wage contract with Lampre. Vingegaard had already extended with Jumbo in May 2020 (until the end of the 2022 season).

 

[Red Rick]

Cant believe people forget how utterly useless Froome was before that Vuelta

 

[Netserk]

Vingegaard didn't have as many good results as early as Basso had, but he still reached the top level at an earlier age than Basso did. He had more success before 2021 than Sastre had at the same age. Yet no one in their right mind compares Sastre with Froome.

 

[Tim Cahill]

I'd be a bit more miffed about the inevitability of this miraculous comeback we are about to witness and the absolutely unbearable nonsense we will get from Plugge etc, but to be fair I've just watched his rival win the Giro by 10 minutes with 6 stages whilst looking around at the scenery so I'm going to try and enjoy it a bit more this year.

 

[Cookster15]

I'd be a bit more miffed about the inevitability of this miraculous comeback we are about to witness and the absolutely unbearable nonsense we will get from Plugge etc, but to be fair I've just watched his rival win the Giro by 10 minutes with 6 stages whilst looking around at the scenery so I'm going to try and enjoy it a bit more this year.

The most balanced comment I've read on these two. But you are right how Pog looked. I have also conditioned myself to be prepared to witness the impossible and hopefully can enjoy this more. Plugge is the new Brailsford. Equally annoying.

 

[Froome]

I'd be a bit more miffed about the inevitability of this miraculous comeback we are about to witness and the absolutely unbearable nonsense we will get from Plugge etc, but to be fair I've just watched his rival win the Giro by 10 minutes with 6 stages whilst looking around at the scenery so I'm going to try and enjoy it a bit more this year.

That's the best way to enjoy cycling. Enjoy the race without caring of this clinical issues.

 

[Cookster15]

Yeah, but even before the 2021 TdF he was not considered a GC contender. He was a domestique. The Danish national team coach, a month or two before the 2021 TdF, called him 'a man for future grand tour GC's''. Then, out of the blue, he finished 2nd that year, and two year's later he did the miracle time trial; according to some ex-riders the best in TdF history.

That's a pretty speedy progress - kind of like Froome back in the day

Totally understand where you are coming from. Nobody had Vingegaard on any short list of possible contenders before the 2021 TdF. But rule number one here is don't mention Froome as that presents an easy deflection for Vingegaard's fans here.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Totally understand where you are coming from. Nobody had Vingegaard on any short list of possible contenders before the 2021 TdF. But rule number one here is don't mention Froome as that presents an easy deflection for Vingegaard's fans here.

To be fair, I haven't studied those career trajectories that carefully. It may very well be that Froome came even more out of nowhere. So sorry for breaking that rule ;-)

In any case, as you said, Vingegaard just wasn't considered to be a potential TdF winner at that time. He was considered a good climber, and he made a good impression as a domestique at Visma in Vuelta a España 2020. The Danish national team coach also said that he had a 'decent' or 'reasonable' (in Danish: fornuftig) time trial. The year before, he'd finished 7th in the PostDanmark time trial, which at the time he himself considered a good performance. So it really was an unexpected breakthrough at the TdF 2021 when he finished 2nd in the GC and in top 3 in both time trials.

 

[Netserk]

Totally understand where you are coming from. Nobody had Vingegaard on any short list of possible contenders before the 2021 TdF. But rule number one here is don't mention Froome as that presents an easy deflection for Vingegaard's fans here.

Before the mountains, I had him as a podium favourite after Rogla's crash meant that the team would no longer ride for him, despite Vingegaard's time loss waiting for him.

That time loss also shows why no one had him as an outsider before the Tour: The team (outside Van Aert) was fully dedicated to Rogla.

EDIT: Even after Rogla's crash, Vingegaard said to Danish TV: "I am not riding GC, I am only here for Primoz". It was only when it was absolutely clear that there was no hope for Rogla any more that he shifted focus.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Before the mountains, I had him as a podium favourite after Rogla's crash meant that the team would no longer ride for him, despite Vingegaard's time loss waiting for him.

That time loss also shows why no one had him as an outsider before the Tour: The team (outside Van Aert) was fully dedicated to Rogla.

EDIT: Even after Rogla's crash, Vingegaard said to Danish TV: "I am not riding GC, I am only here for Primoz". It was only when it was absolutely clear that there was no hope for Rogla any more that he shifted focus.

We'll see what happens in this year's TdF. If he participates and it turns out he can compete with Pogacar, and if we take that at face value, then he truly is a unique athlete, and who knows what he could have won earlier on if he had calmed his nerves + started training and eating properly when he was younger.

 

[Cookster15]

he made a good impression as a domestique at Visma in Vuelta a España 2020. The Danish national team coach also said that he had a 'decent' or 'reasonable' (in Danish: fornuftig) time trial. The year before, he'd finished 7th in the PostDanmark time trial, which at the time he himself considered a good performance. So it really was an unexpected breakthrough at the TdF 2021 when he finished 2nd in the GC and in top 3 in both time trials.

And by the 2021 Tour he was beating Pog in flat TTs and even rivaling WvA. Massive transformation. IMO Vingegaard is the product of an arms race with UAE.

Tour de France 2021 Stage 20 (ITT) results

Wout van Aert is the winner of Tour de France 2021 Stage 20 (ITT), before Kasper Asgreen and Jonas Vingegaard. Tadej PogaÄar was leader in GC.

www.procyclingstats.com

 

[ElDesordenado]

And by the 2021 Tour he was beating Pog in flat TTs and even rivaling WvA. Massive transformation. IMO Vingegaard is the product of an arms race with UAE.

Tour de France 2021 Stage 20 (ITT) results

Wout van Aert is the winner of Tour de France 2021 Stage 20 (ITT), before Kasper Asgreen and Jonas Vingegaard. Tadej PogaÄar was leader in GC.

www.procyclingstats.com

Exactly. And by 2023, he had reached a level where, after being even more impressive in the TdF, he could do the Vuelta on the fly and finish 2nd, seemingly while holding back.

 

[Netserk]

And by the 2021 Tour he was beating Pog in flat TTs and even rivaling WvA. Massive transformation. IMO Vingegaard is the product of an arms race with UAE.

Tour de France 2021 Stage 20 (ITT) results

Wout van Aert is the winner of Tour de France 2021 Stage 20 (ITT), before Kasper Asgreen and Jonas Vingegaard. Tadej PogaÄar was leader in GC.

www.procyclingstats.com

While it wasn't a flat ITT, it's a curious omission that you don't mention that he also beat Pogi in the ITT of Itzulia that year (and in GC too, thanks to team tactics).

 

[Netserk]

We'll see what happens in this year's TdF. If he participates and it turns out he can compete with Pogacar, and if we take that at face value, then he truly is a unique athlete, and who knows what he could have won earlier on if he had calmed his nerves + started training and eating properly when he was younger.

At face value? Obviously he's on as heavy a doping program as he can get away with, and his rise also (partly) reflect the timing of him stepping up on that front.

 

[Froome]

And by the 2021 Tour he was beating Pog in flat TTs and even rivaling WvA. Massive transformation. IMO Vingegaard is the product of an arms race with UAE.

Tour de France 2021 Stage 20 (ITT) results

Wout van Aert is the winner of Tour de France 2021 Stage 20 (ITT), before Kasper Asgreen and Jonas Vingegaard. Tadej PogaÄar was leader in GC.

www.procyclingstats.com

Vingegaard could had won the Tour 2021 in the right circumstances for him.

He suffered during the year with covid, wasn't listed to the Tour until May, and he had problems in the tendons who didn’t let him train before the Tour.

Besides that, he crashed in the famous stage of Romme+ Colombiere.

He dropped Pogacar on Ventoux, he didn’t lost time in the Pyrenees to Pogacar, and he just lost 27 s to Pogacar in the first Time trial of the Tour.

Unfortunately those issues delayed Vingegaard until 2022.

Vingegaard seventh in time trial Critérium du Dauphiné

Jonas Vingegaard has finished seventh in the time trial of the Critérium du Dauphiné. On the hilly course, the Dane clocked a time of 21:53, conceding…

www.teamvismaleaseabike.com

 

[Froome]

We'll see what happens in this year's TdF. If he participates and it turns out he can compete with Pogacar, and if we take that at face value, then he truly is a unique athlete, and who knows what he could have won earlier on if he had calmed his nerves + started training and eating properly when he was younger.

He has a outstanding genetics just like the other top riders.

A strong doping programm only works if the athletes has outstanding genetics.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Vingegaard could had won the Tour 2021 in the right circumstances for him.

No, he couldnt't.

 

[Froome]

Chords to cols: How Jonas Vingegaard went from guitars to Grand Tours

If he'd followed a music teacher's advice the 2022 Tour de France winner might have ended up starring on a different type of stage

www.cyclingweekly.com

In 2016 Rasmussen recalls his son undergoing tests while riding for Odder Cykle club - the same team that helped develop future Tour of Flanders winner Kasper Asgreen, now at Soudal Quick-Step - which revealed that he had an exceptionally high VO2 max while still just a teenager.

“They were testing all the guys in the team,” says Rasmussen. “I think there were about ten. They did seven of them and everything was normal, then they did Jonas and everything went out of order.”

According to Rasmussen, the man carrying out the test initially thought his machine was broken, such were the numbers involved.

“He said ‘oh this cannot be right, I think my machine is broken’ then he tested three other guys after that and it was normal again,” he adds. “So it was not his machine, he’d just never seen anything like that before. At 17, Jonas’ VO2 max was something around 97.” Legendary Tour de France champion Miguel Indurain’s VO2 Max has been reported at anywhere between 78 and 95 millilitres per kilogram of body weight per minute."

Of course he is in a strong doping program but he has a great physiology.

 

[ElDesordenado]

At face value? Obviously he's on as heavy a doping program as he can get away with, and his rise also (partly) reflect the timing of him stepping up on that front.

Well, according to Visma, a lot of Vingegaard's success has to do with improved eating habits. "We created him in the lab". And, as he said himself after the last time trial in the TdF 2022, he has worked a lot on his aerodynamics. "We're completely clean".

 

[QueenStagiaire]

No, he couldnt't.

Well, if he gets the really good circumstances that both Pogačar and Roglič crash…

 

[Froome]

No, he couldnt't.

Yes, he could since he won in 2022 and 2023. When i mean the right circumstances, i mean if his progress hadn't been delayed due to health problems. Nevertheless he was second when he didn't achieved the progress he could had done in 2021.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Chords to cols: How Jonas Vingegaard went from guitars to Grand Tours

If he'd followed a music teacher's advice the 2022 Tour de France winner might have ended up starring on a different type of stage

www.cyclingweekly.com

In 2016 Rasmussen recalls his son undergoing tests while riding for Odder Cykle club - the same team that helped develop future Tour of Flanders winner Kasper Asgreen, now at Soudal Quick-Step - which revealed that he had an exceptionally high VO2 max while still just a teenager.

“They were testing all the guys in the team,” says Rasmussen. “I think there were about ten. They did seven of them and everything was normal, then they did Jonas and everything went out of order.”

According to Rasmussen, the man carrying out the test initially thought his machine was broken, such were the numbers involved.

“He said ‘oh this cannot be right, I think my machine is broken’ then he tested three other guys after that and it was normal again,” he adds. “So it was not his machine, he’d just never seen anything like that before. At 17, Jonas’ VO2 max was something around 97.” Legendary Tour de France champion Miguel Indurain’s VO2 Max has been reported at anywhere between 78 and 95 millilitres per kilogram of body weight per minute."

Of course he is in a strong doping program but he has a great physiology.

And yet, those were the thoughts of Visma's sports director during Vingegaard's first professional race:

"He was the weakest rider in the field during the first days of the Ruta del Sol and got dropped even though they were riding at a really calm pace. I wasn't convinced. It was already a gamble to bring him onto the team. He had talent, but we didn't really know what we had on our hands because he had also had a history of injuries. I thought more; he'll never truly become a cyclist, than; he'll win the Tour in four years."

Source: https://politiken.dk/sport/cykling/...med-nervesammenbrud-opkast-og-søvnløse-nætter

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Yes, he could since he won in 2022 and 2023. When i mean the right circumstances, i mean if his progress hadn't been delayed due to health problems. Nevertheless he was second when he didn't achieved the progress he could had done in 2021.

Sure, and Riccardo Riccò would have won the 2008 Giro if he had been as strong as he was in the Tour. Pogačar would also have won the 2019 Vuelta if he had his TdF 2021 legs.

There's a big difference between reaching your highest level yet and reaching your absolute peak. Vingegaard wouldn't have been as strong in the 2022 Tour, if he hadn't experienced the 2021 Tour beforehand.