Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[theyoungest]

I actually stopped reading here.

I can't make race predictions based on the possibility one guy is going to go 4.5 seconds per km faster than his rival (& 4km/h faster than the rest of the field) over a 22.4km's ITT.

I nope out. Nearly 3 minutes back to Wout van Aert (who was third, so not exactly sh*t either) on a rolling route? Yeah, how about no.

Jumbo could ride around for two weeks however they want (fast, slow, dressed like killer clowns) & they'd still nuke the field whenever they wish with that sort of power. That's not sport anymore & I have no interest in debating its merits.

So what would have been an acceptable time gap for you? To a Pogacar who completely cracked the day after, and who already said that he didn't feel great during the TT? Or did you think he looked like he was on a great day (even if his closest followers, like Allan Peiper, already saw that something was wrong with him).

That both Vingegaard and Pogacar are way better than the rest of the field, and way better than they've ever been, I think we've already established.

 

[Rackham]

Yes, Jumbo wins every stage they want and whenever they want. Same narrative again, you got nothing on them besides "they ride too fast".

Even when Sky dominated there atleast were some serious dubious TUE"s . There were parcels send of which nobody wanted to talk about. A doctor was thrown infront of a bus to take all the blame.
Well maybe this still has to come for Jumbo!

Uh-huh, okay.

I'm just sitting here wondering how the single greatest physical performance in an ITT since the 1960's (I'm not saying this, data says this) should have the benefit of the doubt.

And it's not me who needs convincing, i.e. just check the pulse of the masses out there. That little opinion poll I posted yesterday from Le Figaro? 65000 respondents say Vingegaard is suspect.

That level of doubt is not fixable.

 

[theyoungest]

Uh-huh, okay.

I'm just sitting here wondering how the single greatest physical performance in an ITT since the 1960's (I'm not saying this, data says this) should have the benefit of the doubt.

And it's not me who needs convincing, i.e. just check the pulse of the masses out there. That little opinion poll I posted yesterday from Le Figaro? 65000 respondents say Vingegaard is suspect.

That level of doubt is not fixable.

Oh wow, Le Figaro. The French think a foreigner winning the Tour is suspect! Call me flabbergasted.

 

[Vudy]

So what would have been an acceptable time gap for you? To a Pogacar who completely cracked the day after, and who already said that he didn't feel great during the TT? Or did you think he looked like he was on a great day (even if his closest followers, like Allan Peiper, already saw that something was wrong with him).

That both Vingegaard and Pogacar are way better than the rest of the field, and way better than they've ever been, I think we've already established.

I was ok with last year. This year, nope. Not anymore. This weren't aero bars, nor cornering, no not jumping backflips... This was ridiculous. Everyone can have an opinion. This TT performance was just over the edge for me. Vingo looked exhausted in week 2,in week 3 he looked the same as at the start of the tour. But yeah, superb recovery...

 

[Salvarani]

The thread has been invaded again, guys!

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Oh wow, Le Figaro. The French think a foreigner winning the Tour is suspect! Call me flabbergasted.

Luckily, the French have common sense.

 

[meat puppet]

Don't agree with theyoungest's general stance, but he is correct about a degree of double standards being floated around.

Jumbo does what they are supposed to do and it's somehow morally shocking. Pog directly mocks an opponent after a failure and it's either a pass or just adorable 🥰

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Yes, Jumbo wins every stage they want and whenever they want. Same narrative again, you got nothing on them besides "they ride too fast".

Even when Sky dominated there atleast were some serious dubious TUE"s . There were parcels send of which nobody wanted to talk about. A doctor was thrown infront of a bus to take all the blame.
Well maybe this still has to come for Jumbo!

Of course there were the TUEs with Sky, yet their numbers were in line with what was supposed to be going on after the cleanup and a return to pre-blood doping performances. What we are witnessing at the moment are performances that would have blown peak Froome out of the ballpark, with ease. No jojoing would have saved him.
And that is of course not onyl true of Vingegaard but very much so of Pogacar. But if you look at the climbing performances this year alone and their power estimates, we are straight back in 90ies territory.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Oh wow, Le Figaro. The French think a foreigner winning the Tour is suspect! Call me flabbergasted.

Ah the nostalgia! We are back at the french are not trustworthy, not the riders! Classic.

 

[theyoungest]

I was ok with last year. This year, nope. Not anymore. This weren't aero bars, nor cornering, no not jumping backflips... This was ridiculous. Everyone can have an opinion. This TT performance was just over the edge for me. Vingo looked exhausted in week 2,in week 3 he looked the same as at the start of the tour. But yeah, superb recovery...

Vingegaard was getting closer to Pogacar on every mountain stage, to the point that he was his equal (and probably stronger) on Sunday. I didn't quite expect him to put in this performance in the TT, nobody did, but he was definitely on an upward trajectory compared to Pogi. I don't know where you've seen this exhaustion. The worst he has looked was actually in the final of stage 6.

But, we're here in the clinic, so I'm just interested: what do you think he did in the mean time? Take a shot of EPO?

 

[Riek s]

Not sure what the fuzz about Pog is. His forum thread is almost double the size of Vingegaard. both are breaking past the 7W/kg deep in the tour for dozen minutes on multiple occasions.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Not sure what the fuzz about Pog is. His forum thread is almost double the size of Vingegaard. both are breaking past the 7W/kg deep in the tour for dozen minutes on multiple occasions.

Actually I think only Vingegaard did this for such a long time, or did I miss something.

 

[theyoungest]

Luckily, the French have common sense.

Sure. I remember their great investigative journalism about Roglic' motor doping in the Giro. Haven't heard anything about that since though.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Don't agree with theyoungest's general stance, but he is correct about a degree of double standards being floated around.

Jumbo does what they are supposed to do and it's somehow morally shocking. Pog directly mocks an opponent after a failure and it's either a pass or just adorable 🥰

Pogačar is gangsta and has street cred while Vingegaard is the investment banker taking drugs.

 

[meat puppet]

Pogačar is gangsta and has street cred while Vingegaard is the investment banker taking drugs.

View: https://youtu.be/409Pjtq7jzY

 

[Riek s]

Actually I think only Vingegaard did this for such a long time, or did I miss something.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1680576874504679426

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1680576874504679426


you are right, for more than 10minutes Pog was around 6.7/6.8 for a slightly longer duration. (probably from different calculators they go above 7W/kg, but let me use the most reliable ones. Still way to much )

https://twitter.com/x/status/1677007069277216779

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1677007069277216779

https://twitter.com/x/status/1678115559970357248

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1678115559970357248

edit: (hence my previous statement)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1678114661223342080

View: https://twitter.com/NaichacaCycling/status/1678114661223342080

 

[Rackham]

Oh wow, Le Figaro. The French think a foreigner winning the Tour is suspect! Call me flabbergasted.

I guess Jumbo & Vingegaard are unlucky... there are French people in France.

If he dropped the watts in the Tour of Denmark, no one would give a cr*p. But hey, apparently these guys all want to win the Tour de France, so the native population & their suspicions is just something everyone has to deal with.

What can I say? C'est la vie.

 

[hrotha]

Oh wow, Le Figaro. The French think a foreigner winning the Tour is suspect! Call me flabbergasted.

Do you Dutchies actually want to play the nationality card here

 

[Kwibus]

Of course there were the TUEs with Sky, yet their numbers were in line with what was supposed to be going on after the cleanup and a return to pre-blood doping performances. What we are witnessing at the moment are performances that would have blown peak Froome out of the ballpark, with ease. No jojoing would have saved him.
And that is of course not onyl true of Vingegaard but very much so of Pogacar. But if you look at the climbing performances this year alone and their power estimates, we are straight back in 90ies territory.

Except that in the 90s they were also quite a few kgs heavier.

You are aware that performances in all sports have improved over the last 30 years and specifically in cycling some teams have made huge steps compared to how they approaced the sport 15-30 years ago? I mean cycling was (and is) a very backward sport.

 

[theyoungest]

I guess Jumbo & Vingegaard are unlucky... there are French people in France.

If he dropped the watts in the Tour of Denmark, no one would give a cr*p. But hey, apparently these guys all want to win the Tour de France, so the native population & their suspicions is just something everyone has to deal with.

What can I say? C'est la vie.

What? You're the one who brings up a poll from a French newspaper, not me. I'm saying that this is to be expected... which is basically what you're saying as well, apparently.

 

[NFTtiddies]

Except that in the 90s they were also quite a few kgs heavier.

You are aware that performances in all sports have improved over the last 30 years and specifically in cycling some teams have made huge steps compared to how they approaced the sport 15-30 years ago? I mean cycling was (and is) a very backward sport.

Sorry, no amount of 'huge steps' are going to explain the two outliers in this chart.

 

[Salvarani]

Ah, the resorting to start arguing about pointless stuff... going away from the main topic. Not a bad strategy. The invaders are on it.

 

[theyoungest]

Ah, the resorting to start arguing about pointless stuff... going away from the main topic. Not a bad strategy. The invaders are on it.

Do you actually offer any arguments or are you just posting "lollzzz" smilies and commenting how the thread gets "invaded"? Invaded by whom, people who disagree with the one true opinion?

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Except that in the 90s they were also quite a few kgs heavier.

You are aware that performances in all sports have improved over the last 30 years and specifically in cycling some teams have made huge steps compared to how they approaced the sport 15-30 years ago? I mean cycling was (and is) a very backward sport.

That was already the explanation given for the sucess of Sky/Ineos. What we have seen over the last 3 years is not a gradual developement at all, but a stark jump in performances. There is no revolutionary trick everyone started doing known to me that somehow then transformed everything in 2020.

 

[Salvarani]

Do you actually offer any arguments or are you just posting "lollzzz" smilies and commenting how the thread gets "invaded"? Invaded by whom, people who disagree with the one true opinion?

Plenty has been said in the last few days already. The situation is ridiculous. What he has done is ridiculous and you coming in here saying what you are saying, is just amusing/very funny to me at least. I am gonna continue to laugh at your funny jokes.