Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[topt]

https://www.corriere.it/sport/ciclismo/23_luglio_20/vingegaard-pogacar-quarto-controllo-antidoping-tour-82a44f2c-2674-11ee-8645-4a254f4192ac.shtml?refresh_ce
" "Tadej attacked me for 15 days," Vingegaard explained, "and from his aggressiveness I understood that at some point he would collapse. Those who shoot too much are insecure, spend a lot and pay in the end.""
So it's the same tactic as used before of Jumbo pushing Pogacar and blowing himself up by being too agressive. Which makes me wonder what condition Vingegaard must have to hang on for 15 days and then blow everyone away in the TT.

Edit add - I wonder too what would have happened if the TT was before the rest day and not after. The Giro I praised for doing that (stage 9) but the Tour seems to stick to post rest day for some reason.

what a bunch of crap, so far the damage control team is not doing a very good job; I am sure they are already googling for some exotic disease Vingo had before jumbo signed him

 

[DenisMenchov]

Cavagna and WVA also did backflips in the pool?

 

[ontheroad]

From a Danish gossip magazine today:

Headline: "Are they the secret behind the success? Jonas Vingegaard has no doubt"

Quote from Vingegaard about the rest day which he spent with his wife and his daughter: "I think being loaded with love makes a big difference"

Loaded with love

Ah ffs not this stuff again! The charm offensive PR campaign has started already.

It’s when they attempt to start insulting your intelligence that the initial incredulity turns to outright disdain.

 

[Hugh Januss]

So then the prevailing educated opinion of the clinic is that UAE/Pogacar came up with some kind of substance or protocol which enabled him to beat the snot out of all the clean or inadequately doped competition, but then Jumbo/Vingegaard developed something that totally trumped whatever Pogacar was on, and that even though no one else seems to be able to avail themselves of any of this rocket fuel they will all keep quiet because....omerta. Is that about right?

 

[ontheroad]

So far we’ve had:

superior cornering
VO2 max of 97
No backflips on the rest day
Instead getting showered with love on the rest day

Im fairly sure I’m missing some and I expect there will be more to come in the days ahead!

 

[hrotha]

Bjarne Riis is commenting the race for one of the Danish tabloids. He says of the time trial that "Jonas is from another planet - going beyond even Indurain in his level of dominance". Regarding the doping question he says that although he doesn't want to "go out waving a white flag that says that Jonas is clean clean clean and clean", one should take into account the level of perfectionism, sacrifice, and attention to detail from Vingegaard and JumboVisma: "You don't see Jonas doing backflips in the pool during the restday like Pogacar. Everything is carefully planned."

From another planet
No backflips in the pool

I just don't understand how these people don't see that all those things (perfectionism, sacrifice, attention to detail, willingness to plan everything super carefully) make doping more likely, not less.

 

[topt]

So far we’ve had:

superior cornering
VO2 max of 97
No backflips on the rest day
Instead getting showered with love on the rest day

Im fairly sure I’m missing some and I expect there will be more to come in the days ahead!

yep, Denmark is flat so he couldnt show his talent when he was young.

 

[Ricco']

So far we’ve had:

superior cornering
VO2 max of 97
No backflips on the rest day
Instead getting showered with love on the rest day

Im fairly sure I’m missing some and I expect there will be more to come in the days ahead!

500 grams less *** inside of him than the other riders due to not eating fiber

 

[Riek s]

So far we’ve had:

superior cornering
VO2 max of 97
No backflips on the rest day
Instead getting showered with love on the rest day

Im fairly sure I’m missing some and I expect there will be more to come in the days ahead!

removing 100gram on the TT bike by removing the lack
500 gram less by not eating fiber (so continiously diareah and fluid shortage)
better nutrition (points to the diareah above)
more focussed and better training

and the obvious he was always a fantastic talent with a big engine and huuuuge numbers, because he set a fastest time on some col of around 13minutes in 2018. (which is notabene already bettered by by another denish young guy i think, (article said 45seconds, but strava said 2 seconds ..)

Coll de Rates | Strava Ride Segment in Parcent, Spain

www.strava.com

 

[ontheroad]

I just don't understand how these people don't see that all those things (perfectionism, sacrifice, attention to detail, willingness to plan everything super carefully) make doping more likely, not less.

Exactly this. It would be negligent to get all of the little details correct yet fail to address the very thing that could make the single biggest difference to performance levels.

 

[lenric]

So far we’ve had:

superior cornering
VO2 max of 97
No backflips on the rest day
Instead getting showered with love on the rest day

Im fairly sure I’m missing some and I expect there will be more to come in the days ahead!

Dude started controlling his nerves and believing in himself.

 

[SHAD0W93]

500 grams less *** inside of him than the other riders due to not eating fiber

Probably took the whole jug of golytely to make his intestines looking squeaky clean.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Pello Bilbao doesn't take his cornering seriously enough and what is that is that Simon Yates eating doughnuts before the tt.

 

[Vudy]

Pello Bilbao doesn't take his cornering seriously enough and what is that is that Simon Yates eating doughnuts before the tt.

They were all doing back flips in the pool while Jonas was concentrating on his cornering the next day. It's logical.

 

[lenric]

They were all doing back flips in the pool while Jonas was concentrating on his cornering the next day. It's logical.

jonas was having a call with the danish f1 driver kevin magnussen to learn a bit more about cornering

 

[Vudy]

So far we’ve had:

superior cornering
VO2 max of 97
No backflips on the rest day
Instead getting showered with love on the rest day

Im fairly sure I’m missing some and I expect there will be more to come in the days ahead!

VO2 max of 97 at age 17 mind you.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

So then the prevailing educated opinion of the clinic is that UAE/Pogacar came up with some kind of substance or protocol which enabled him to beat the snot out of all the clean or inadequately doped competition, but then Jumbo/Vingegaard developed something that totally trumped whatever Pogacar was on, and that even though no one else seems to be able to avail themselves of any of this rocket fuel they will all keep quiet because....omerta. Is that about right?

I think that's always been the personal hell of Clinic denizens that there is so much we have to speculate, I don't know anyone can really tell. The only things factual (or as close to factual) are that overall peloton performances have seemingly jumped up again from 2020 and that a few riders (including Vingegaard and Pogacar on the Tour) are clocking insane times warranting reasonable suspicion.

Beyond that... Is it that Jumbo, UAE or Sky have access to supposed new methods ? Pharma, genetics, motor ? Or that they're better at it ? Willing to supercharge more ? Are only charging key riders to avoid being too conspicuous ? That they are actively or passively protected and as such have more leeway ? I don't think one can provide a definitive answer to that.

The best I can offer is that we know from past cases that teams can be more crooked than others (because of the history and legacy of people involved).
That the teams most often scrutinized (both for outstanding performances of leaders and very high floor for the whole roster) here generally are among the wealthiest of the WT so theoretically could have access to better implementation of PED.
That even with systematic team level doping, there's still a hierarchy of riders.
That doping specialists learnt a long time ago you need to pace it for a variety of reasons including not raising too many red flags.
That some riders respond better to enhancement than others.

I'll add (and some recent musings may confirm that) that it's not too farfetched that the peloton will not rock the boat so long that (alleged) dopers are not killing all competition too blatantly.

From there, I feel the simplest, less complex explanation for the ITT results if we assume cheating is involved :
Pog, Vingo and their respective teams both identified some time before hand it would be a crucial day and overdid it way past the target because they were neck to neck in GC and probably assumed the other would pull all stops. Considering Pogacar bonking the day after, possibly suboptimal prep and general fatigue, it was probably his all-in moment anyway.

Overall they both dominated the Tour head and shoulders and there was quickly no doubt on the top 2 (bar Pog completely collapsing until Paris) but both of them being so close help hid a little just how far ahead they are (and though it was an exciting tour in the mountains, you didn't get -IMO- a crazy solo perf like Armstrong at Sestrières 1999).

Maybe their teams have access to better stuff. Or just dosed them as far as they could.
Probably that Pogacar and Vingegaard, if cheating, do respond better to it than most riders on top of their natural talent or physical idiosyncrasies.

My 2 cents of the most reasonable scenario not involving super secret sauce or mass active collusion outside the teams.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

But if you have this level in your back pocket then you don't need a buffer.

Famously nothing unexpected can ever go wrong in GTs.

 

[Ripper]

Ah ffs not this stuff again! The charm offensive PR campaign has started already.

It’s when they attempt to start insulting your intelligence that the initial incredulity turns to outright disdain.

Love will find a way!

 

[Ripper]

So far we’ve had:

superior cornering
VO2 max of 97
No backflips on the rest day
Instead getting showered with love on the rest day

Im fairly sure I’m missing some and I expect there will be more to come in the days ahead!

He's not insecure!

 

[Rob5091]

Zach Nehr gets his calculator out again -
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...gaards-tt-and-sep-kuss-on-the-col-de-la-loze/
"After 19 minutes of riding full gas on the TT bike, Vingegaard produced the most insane climbing performance I’ve ever seen. There is no comparison to the power and speed that Vingegaard did on the climb to Combloux.

The 26-year-old Dane pushed ~7.5w/kg for over 13 minutes on his time trial bike, which is one of the most incredible performances in cycling history.
These power values were estimated using a variety of data, including years of historical power data from this exact climb to Combloux. The exact power numbers will never be 100%, especially when you consider calibration factors, temperatures, power meter brands, and more. But all that matters is that Jonas Vingegaard went insanely fast up the climb to Combloux, and I can say with 99.99% certainty that he did well over 7.3w/kg for 13 minutes…after already time trialing at 50.6 kph for 19 minutes."
He was loaded with a lot of love!

 

[proffate]

Famously nothing unexpected can ever go wrong in GTs.

I struggle to imagine how he could have lost so much time that he couldn't come back, especially with wout motor pacing him to the last climb every day

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Recently JV director said that they have Netflix/Amazon/whatever cameras 24/7 and that everybody can see what they do and that there's nothing to hide.
I'm starting to think that maybe Vinge doesn't take any substances indeed and is clean. Maybe they somehow upgraded him once and for all with VO2max of 100+.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Recently JV director said that they have Netflix/Amazon/whatever cameras 24/7 and that everybody can see what they do and that there's nothing to hide.
I'm starting to think that maybe Vinge doesn't take any substances indeed and is clean. Maybe they somehow upgraded him once and for all with VO2max of 100+.

Honestly, that’s smart by them since it can help reinforce they’d status with the casuals.

 

[Rackham]

Honestly, that’s smart by them since it can help reinforce they’d status with the casuals.

In hindsight, that Netflix documentary was some sort of master coup of propaganda, i.e. Pogačar got the 'bad guy' label whilst Jumbo presented themselves as heroes overcoming an invincible adversary. Their "we're the underdogs" messaging is in conflict with their "show the world who is the strongest" stuff (& smashing the dude by 7 minutes this year) but the damage is done, i.e. Vingegaard is portrayed as a loving father & introvert from a peaceful, lovable little Danish community where packing fish is a rite of passage towards doing 7.5w/kg for 13 minutes.

Everything about Jumbo's TdF venture is corporate to the extreme, i.e. #rideyourdreams & all that stuff. Whilst Pog was messing about with Marc Soler in a swimming pool on rest day, Vingegaard was getting a professionally edited video interview about "making the dream come true" by taking the jersey to Paris (some cringe stuff like that).

Skeletor even did a voice recording for a children's bedtime audiobook as part of Jumbo's marketing campaign (like he's the star of a Disney movie): https://www.teamjumbovisma.com/shop/tour-de-france/reading-book-en-2023-the-velodrome/

So I'd say he's so full of sh*t but tbh that's not entirely accurate considering those 500 grams he probably dropped before the recording, yet the point stands: Jumbo are fake as f*ck.