Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[ManicJack]

Yeah, I thought that sounded really weird too. From what I recall from Tyler Hamilton's book the hematocrit drops pretty drastically during a stage race like TdF - or at least that's what happens as you get more and more exhausted, if you're not doping. So I'm surprised that Vingegaard will maintain his level with no altitude training

He probably has a chamber at home.

 

[Savant12]

He probably has a chamber at home.

Jumbo have been running their own echo chamber during and after the Tour.

 

[Le breton]

Echo chamber ? Are they going into music ?

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Echo chamber ? Are they going into music ?

Yes. Vingo is recording a battle rap tape, to change his image from boring to edgy and to finish the job of pissing of the peloton with diss tracks.

 

[ivanic]

is an altitude camp really a pre-requisite for people doing the Tour Vuelta double? I don't remember what Froome did, but I doubt that he would have had the space for an altitude camp in 2016 with the Olympics right in the middle of the 4 week Tour Vuelta gap

Froome did the double in 2017 not in 2016

 

[theyoungest]

For those arrogant takes, I hope Jumbo/Vingegaard have to pay the price sooner than later. But fits perfectly well with the other rest day comments about FDJ. In that sense they are really US Postal/Armstrong-esque (or Sky for the younger ones). As if pro sports is not highly professional across teams. Find your doping secret but stay quiet about it. Ever wondered why Contador was liked and not Froome? Well, its largely that part I would argue. Contador, a dominating force for years, did not claim he invented cycling. And Pogacar obviously did recons and prep as well, no backflip in the pool is in any way relevant. But as long as thats the narrative that pleases the wide public (be it pillows, "busting my ass off on the bike" and whatever "explanation" was out there already at some point), history will repeat.

Sure, use the comments by Vingegaard's mum as reported by some tabloid as the official Jumbo line of communication.

 

[Rob5091]

Sure, use the comments by Vingegaard's mum as reported by some tabloid as the official Jumbo line of communication.

I'm hoping Vingegaard's mum turns into the Martha Mitchell of pro-cycling - not that she knows anything, but that did n't stop Martha Mitchell either!

 

[Salvarani]

Him doing the Vuelta after winning the Tour quite easily, showing superior strength, must just mean he has reached full mutant level.

Has to be one of the biggest dopers the sport has had.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Him doing the Vuelta after winning the Tour quite easily, showing superior strength, must just mean he has reached full mutant level.

Has to be one of the biggest dopers the sport has had.

Vayer ranks him alongside Indurain (1995), Riis (1996) and Pantani (1998).

 

[46&twoWheels]

Vayer ranks him alongside Indurain (1995), Riis (1996) and Pantani (1998).

you got to love Vayer's perseverance! Basically you have to be Pierre Roland or Romain Bardet to be clean . No french in sight there

 

[zlev11]

you got to love Vayer's perseverance! Basically you have to be Pierre Roland or Romain Bardet to be clean . No french in sight there

yeah because that is a list of Tour winners

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

Yes. Vingo is recording a battle rap tape, to change his image from boring to edgy and to finish the job of pissing of the peloton with diss tracks.

Blinding in yellow
You're getting all mellow
I'm climbing the Ventoux
making you an hater too
They say my rival is named Pog
But in my ITT I only caught up hogs
They told me French like their wine
But I'm told they also gamble on beer
Do you have a big enough Van Aert to accept me ?
You're a dom and I'm the meister.
Jet life in size Jumbo
Vingo il est beau !

 

[46&twoWheels]

yeah because that is a list of Tour winners

my comment was a a bit tongue in cheek. I know that France hasn't had a great GC rider in a long time (affecting both wins and performances). I love Vayer's passion and "caractere", don't get me wrong, I always laugh my ass off when I read his tweets after a godly performance. I just find his "suspect" class a bit excessive

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

my comment was a a bit tongue in cheek. I know that France hasn't had a great GC rider in a long time (affecting both wins and performances). I love Vayer's passion and "caractere", don't get me wrong, I always laugh my ass off when I read his tweets after a godly performance. I just find his "suspect" class a bit excessive

I wasn't familiar with Vayer and his acolyte I forgot the name of, stumbled upon his name when looking more into the Bahrain Victorious raids. He seems embroiled in feuds and internet drama, last year (iirc) there was a very critical editorial against him and he clapped back by saying the author was the son of a doping doctor / French osteopath exiled to the Canaries or something along those lines.

Very first impression is a fiery crusader of the letters variety, well meaning, well connected but using questionable data.

 

[Le breton]

I've known of Vayer for ages, since around 1998 + 2 I guess.
I remember looking by chance (just surfing on the web) on a page of the Alternativ.com website, not knowing he was the owner.
Since his web address was public I wrote to him asking more details about a stress test of Laurent Brochard since I had been shocked by that test which, at face value, implied that Brochard's VO2max exceeded 100 ml/mn.kg.
Next time I checked on the website lots of graphs had disappeared, including Brochard's.
Anyway, the guy doing calculations for Vayer is Frédéric Portoleau.
For a number of years, on selected climbs, I used to compare my own calculations with Portoleau's.
I gained confidence that he knows what he is doing ans is being very conscientious about it.
So, nowadays I'm not doing my own calculations anymore and rely on his data and on Mihai Simion and Ammattipyoraily.
I have owned powermeters (Look MaxOne then Powertap) and compared my calculations (related to myself) with my power meters data for a number of years.
Anyway, Vayer can be extremely irritating so that you have to discard his renting when he is just venting out his anger.
I guess that might be a way of increasing his audience and revenues.

 

[Andy schleck]

He probably has a chamber at home.

The only concern is how he will get some good training in the mountains, in denmark. That's impossible.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I've known of Vayer for ages, since around 1998 + 2 I guess.
I remember looking by chance (just surfing on the web) on a page of the Alternativ.com website, not knowing he was the owner.
Since his web address was public I wrote to him asking more details about a stress test of Laurent Brochard since I had been shocked by that test which, at face value, implied that Brochard's VO2max exceeded 100 ml/mn.kg.
Next time I checked on the website lots of graphs had disappeared, including Brochard's.
Anyway, the guy doing calculations for Vayer is Frédéric Portoleau.
For a number of years, on selected climbs, I used to compare my own calculations with Portoleau's.
I gained confidence that he knows what he is doing ans is being very conscientious about it.
So, nowadays I'm not doing my own calculations anymore and rely on his data and on Mihai Simion and Ammattipyoraily.
I have owned powermeters (Look MaxOne then Powertap) and compared my calculations (related to myself) with my power meters data for a number of years.
Anyway, Vayer can be extremely irritating so that you have to discard his renting when he is just venting out his anger.
I guess that might be a way of increasing his audience and revenues.

I didn't know of him but in a sense I totally know that person already in broad lines. I see his Twitter feed is a mix of anti-doping and "far" left political militantism, so French . He's playing up to a crowd but perhaps not consciously so. I would imagine he's utterly convinced of the rightfulness of the cause and sincerely passionate.

We (as in "Clinic types") are essentially conspiracy theorists down to doing our own research. It's inevitable we end up having to rely on or at least be in the company of holier than thou pundits, self taught experts of varying quality and some people on a scale from attention seeking to scamming.

Though pro cycling is in a weird quantum state, where doping exist and doesn't exist at the same time. Even the most optimistic defenders of the current purity of the sport do know and cannot deny that at least once doping was systematic, organised, prevalent & concealed effectively over several years. There's a lot more overlap between the two than in other domains (let's say cryptozoology) and it's not so fringe, even the big sport media outlet do pay some lip service and some space to doping suspicions.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

The only concern is how he will get some good training in the mountains, in denmark. That's impossible.

The deepest point in Denmark is at about 145 m below sea level. I'm sure if you dive down there on your bike it will be like climbing Pico Veleta.

 

[MrlarsenDK]

Omg the amounts of cry in here is amazing....

Great entertainment, thanks Pogi fanboys

 

[Andy schleck]

Omg the amounts of cry in here is amazing....

Great entertainment, thanks Pogi fanboys

I'm not a pogi fanboy. I'm a van der poel and vingegaard fanboy, but i'm the one defending pogacar from remco fanboys in remco evenepoel thread!

 

[hender-retour]

Omg the amounts of cry in here is amazing....

Great entertainment, thanks Pogi fanboys

Lol what a troll first post. All in with Danish Handle haha. The troll sophistication level has really dropped on these boards. Disappointing.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Omg the amounts of cry in here is amazing....

Great entertainment, thanks Pogi fanboys

I'm not a Pogi fanboy. I will make fun of all teams and riders, it's just that Vingegaard and JV make it a lot easier to do than most of the rest.

 

[MrlarsenDK]

Yes, as my name suggests, I am Danish

The only argument many in this thread have for why Vingegaard is doped is because he is the best GC rider at the moment, you have no evidence, only empty accusations.

Be specific, comparisons with riders who were doped 40 years ago prove nothing, everything has been optimized since then, bikes, food, training and lifestyle have moved so far since then.

but you can't

 

[Netserk]

Yes, as my name suggests, I am Danish

The only argument many in this thread have for why Vingegaard is doped is because he is the best GC rider at the moment, you have no evidence, only empty accusations.

Be specific, comparisons with riders who were doped 40 years ago prove nothing, everything has been optimized since then, bikes, food, training and lifestyle have moved so far since then.

but you can't

You are right that there’s no courtroom evidence that is available to suggest that he has doped. So as a legal accusation of fraud, it falls flat.

If we move past accusations and stop focusing on personal qualities and liability, we can ask different questions with lower burden of evidence. Make it not about Vingegaard per se and how he may have violated the anti doping rules.

How fast can a human ride a bike without doping? Given what we know about peak performances in cycling’s past, doping use in the past and what we can infer from that, how likely is it that the sport is now mostly clean? If it isn’t mostly clean, how likely is it for a rider to win without doping? And how is it possible for the best in the peloton and the peloton at large to ride significantly faster now than five years ago if not for doping?

Then it’s a question of reasonable inferences, of knowledge of doping and its effects, of human nature and physiology, and of the history and state of professional cycling.

Is it likely that a rider can win the Tour with physical performances not seen in decades (including years where we know for a fact that the best riders blood doped) without the use of doping? No.

Is it probable? No.

Is it even possible? Given what we know now, no. It would take a staggering amount of new evidence to show a non-doping mechanism that can improve performances so much and which has only been used recently.

Is it then likely that Vingegaard has doped? Yes. Absolutely, a practical certainty.

 

[meat puppet]

Yes, as my name suggests, I am Danish

The only argument many in this thread have for why Vingegaard is doped is because he is the best GC rider at the moment, you have no evidence, only empty accusations.

Be specific, comparisons with riders who were doped 40 years ago prove nothing, everything has been optimized since then, bikes, food, training and lifestyle have moved so far since then.

but you can't

If you want to make it as a contrarian, you should up your game like Pog and Vingegaard did. Study the post history of wonderlance, polish, Joachim and others, who, in their own ways to be sure, made a contribution to the clinic.