Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[ElDesordenado]

Yes, as my name suggests, I am Danish

The only argument many in this thread have for why Vingegaard is doped is because he is the best GC rider at the moment, you have no evidence, only empty accusations.

Be specific, comparisons with riders who were doped 40 years ago prove nothing, everything has been optimized since then, bikes, food, training and lifestyle have moved so far since then.

but you can't

Funnily enough, several key members of the staff around Vingegaard were there back in 2007 when Michael Rasmussen (almost) won the TdF. So not everything has changed ...

 

[Rackham]

Yes, as my name suggests, I am Danish

The only argument many in this thread have for why Vingegaard is doped is because he is the best GC rider at the moment, you have no evidence, only empty accusations.

Be specific, comparisons with riders who were doped 40 years ago prove nothing, everything has been optimized since then, bikes, food, training and lifestyle have moved so far since then.

but you can't

It's about time, i.e. this thread needed a true believer (& more). It's what will guarantee "legendary thread status" in the long run, like with Froome when his die hard faithful & Sky superfans fought a long protracted battle in defense of their hero.

So, I'll play ball for a minute, i.e. whilst you're right insofar as we don't have real evidence of doping (Vingegaard would have already been stripped of his title had this been true), what's also true is no one (yourself included) has actually specified how & why modern equipment, nutrition, training & lifestyle yields Pantani/Armstrong-esque performances... whilst clean.

It all seems super... vague? Like there's zero real specifics given & the sport's primary actors simply demand we take that claim at face value, no questions asked. Frankly, the propaganda associated with the "modern bike & food stuff is just better!" excuse makes it sound like Lance & co were riding 15kg bikes on a diet of cheeseburgers, milkshakes & Marlboros by comparison to 'modern pros'.

It's stuff like that which triggers my own bullsh*tometer alarm.

 

[Scarponi]

Th

It's about time, i.e. this thread needed a true believer (& more). It's what will guarantee "legendary thread status" in the long run, like with Froome when his die hard faithful & Sky superfans fought a long protracted battle in defense of their hero.

So, I'll play ball for a minute, i.e. whilst you're right insofar as we don't have real evidence of doping (Vingegaard would have already been stripped of his title had this been true), what's also true is no one (yourself included) has actually specified how & why modern equipment, nutrition, training & lifestyle yields Pantani/Armstrong-esque performances... whilst clean.

It all seems super... vague? Like there's zero real specifics given & the sport's primary actors simply demand we take that claim at face value, no questions asked. Frankly, the propaganda associated with the "modern bike & food stuff is just better!" excuse makes it sound like Lance & co were riding 15kg bikes on a diet of cheeseburgers, milkshakes & Marlboros by comparison to 'modern pros'.

It's stuff like that which triggers my own bullsh*tometer alarm.

They make out the sport science , equipment and lifestyle choices to be so bad in the 90s I’m surprised even with the 10 methods of doping combined they
Managed to climb faster than the Ving and Pog lol

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Th

They make out the sport science , equipment and lifestyle choices to be so bad in the 90s I’m surprised even with the 10 methods of doping combined they
Managed to climb faster than the Ving and Pog lol

Vinnie and Pogi are weaklings compared to supermen from the 90s i.e. a monster defying gravity or a baldy flying up climbs.

 

[fbjim]

Sort of a reverse 90s GC monster really, like if the famous Luxembourg ITT had been pulled out by Claudio Chiappucci.

 

[Lequack]

If Vinge wins the Vuelta does that make him more or less suspicious?

 

[fbjim]

If he loses it's because of all the unipuertos. Not enough corners to gain time in.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

If Vinge wins the Vuelta does that make him more or less suspicious?

That depends on the final results of the UFO hearing in the US I think.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

If Vinge wins the Vuelta does that make him more or less suspicious?

Well... Not less.

 

[fbjim]

If he finishes like 5th in the ITT I will be refreshing this thread so hard.

 

[The Clogger]

If he finishes like 5th in the ITT I will be refreshing this thread so hard.

One hand on the hard-on, one on the keyboard refreshing hard. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

 

[topt]

If Vinge wins the Vuelta does that make him more or less suspicious?

he will not win it; he is on the armstrong style program; so I would say less; body cant take as much super stuff twice a year

 

[topt]

Yes, as my name suggests, I am Danish

The only argument many in this thread have for why Vingegaard is doped is because he is the best GC rider at the moment, you have no evidence, only empty accusations.

Be specific, comparisons with riders who were doped 40 years ago prove nothing, everything has been optimized since then, bikes, food, training and lifestyle have moved so far since then.

but you can't

I guess Wout was a bit less "optimized" in that TT despite having the came conditions

 

[Oldermanish]

It's about time, i.e. this thread needed a true believer (& more). It's what will guarantee "legendary thread status" in the long run, like with Froome when his die hard faithful & Sky superfans fought a long protracted battle in defense of their hero.

So, I'll play ball for a minute, i.e. whilst you're right insofar as we don't have real evidence of doping (Vingegaard would have already been stripped of his title had this been true), what's also true is no one (yourself included) has actually specified how & why modern equipment, nutrition, training & lifestyle yields Pantani/Armstrong-esque performances... whilst clean.

It all seems super... vague? Like there's zero real specifics given & the sport's primary actors simply demand we take that claim at face value, no questions asked. Frankly, the propaganda associated with the "modern bike & food stuff is just better!" excuse makes it sound like Lance & co were riding 15kg bikes on a diet of cheeseburgers, milkshakes & Marlboros by comparison to 'modern pros'.

It's stuff like that which triggers my own bullsh*tometer alarm.

Not to push your response solidly in clinical status but my natural skepticism has been on alert for some time. Usually it's the 4-5 year pro that is suddenly dropping the studs in the mountains that sets it off. Then they fade away and usually go back to Austria, Switzerland or some other country known for super skiers, tennis players....etc.
The general elevation of performance is a little easier to accept if you can agree more racers are coached better. Race speeds being higher doesn't damn the whole group to doping when there is a greater proportion of riders capable of riding slightly faster. They all have to ride faster to stay in the peloton.
But yeah; it's hard to believe any of the top tier aren't pushing the limits.

 

[Le breton]

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Quentin Leplat, a performance specialist, estimates Vingegaard's VO2 max to be 110 ml/mn.kg based on the time trial and after comparison between his calculations and the data from 2 of the racers in this time trial.

 

[Riek s]

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Quentin Leplat, a performance specialist, estimates Vingegaard's VO2 max to be 110 ml/mn.kg based on the time trial and after comparison between his calculations and the data from 2 of the racers in this time trial.

So his dad lied it was only 97?

 

[The Clogger]

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Quentin Leplat, a performance specialist, estimates Vingegaard's VO2 max to be 110 ml/mn.kg based on the time trial and after comparison between his calculations and the data from 2 of the racers in this time trial.

French performance expert estimates 7.2 w/kg for 32 minutes, but luckily he can compare with cLeAN french riders Remy and Gaudu he knows them since they were kids

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I expect him to be quite good in the Vuelta. He most likely won't be able to reach his Tour level, but we know that JV won't leave anything to chance. They probably fear Remco just as much as they've feared Pogačar, and we've seen how far they've been able/willing/allowed to push it in order to beat him. They've already lost a GT to Remco and were potentially on their way to losing another one during the Giro, and I doubt they want to risk that again.

The ITT obviously doesn't suit Vingegaard as much as the one in the Tour and it also comes earlier in the race (although it is after a rest day, so that should of course give him some extra watts), so I don't expect him to be able to beat Remco or Roglič in that one.

 

[Le breton]

French performance expert estimates 7.2 w/kg for 32 minutes, but luckily he can compare with cLeAN french riders Remy and Gaudu he knows them since they were kids

If you had read the article you would have known that his elements of comparison were Izaguirre and Bergaudeau.
"
Le coureur Ion Izagirre a publié (36'49") son temps et sa puissance de 356 watts sur Strava. Mon calcul donne 353 Watts, ce qui confirme la précision du modèle de calcul.
Mathieu Burgeaudeau à aussi publié son fichier puissance sur Stava, en 37'47" il développe 348 watts, mon calcul donne 344 watts.

 

[Eagle_Alps]

That meal needs to be cooked by Vingoman's mama! That'll harden Pogoman up!

Or just to have the "momma's medicine contaminated the pasta" excuse ready. Just ask Sara Errani...

 

[ManicJack]

They've already lost a GT to Remco

That's one way of saying it......I guess 🙄

 

[Red Rick]

French performance expert estimates 7.2 w/kg for 32 minutes, but luckily he can compare with cLeAN french riders Remy and Gaudu he knows them since they were kids

This is why anti doping is completely hopeless.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

That's one way of saying it......I guess 🙄

They were on their way to losing it then if you prefer it phrased like that. Anyway it doesn't change my point about them being likely to be going all-in on victory this time around.

 

[Peyroteo94]

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Quentin Leplat, a performance specialist, estimates Vingegaard's VO2 max to be 110 ml/mn.kg based on the time trial and after comparison between his calculations and the data from 2 of the racers in this time trial.

Please stop with this bs. This man is on a different level when we are talking about cheating. Really hope he gets caught in his 30s and UCI remove all his wins. Seriously, I'm the one to say everyone is doped (and didn't care much about his level in 2022) but what he showed in this Tour, specially in the TT is someone who isn't even moderating in his doping program. A performance similar to Riis in 96 Hautacam.

 

[Le breton]

Please stop with this bs. This man is on a different level when we are talking about cheating. Really hope he gets caught in his 30s and UCI remove all his wins. Seriously, I'm the one to say everyone is doped (and didn't care much about his level in 2022) but what he showed in this Tour, specially in the TT is someone who isn't even moderating in his doping program. A performance similar to Riis in 96 Hautacam.

Unfortunately it looks like it is set to continue for some time.
I was curious to estimate Vinge'VO2 on this same TT.
I assumed that he climbed Domancy (6 mn 47 sec) so as not to go anaerobic. Taking into account of the 32 min duration of this TT I assumed he would be on average at 94% of VO2 max.
I can give you more details if you are interested, but the end figure I got was 103 +/- 1 ml/mn.kg while the average of the 3rd to 10 th finishers of said TT (all very close to each other) averaged 88 to 89 ml/mn.kg.
Such a difference is of course ABSURD and I hope he gets caught more rapidly than the 10 years you mention.