Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[Red Rick]

On Lance Armstrong's podcast they noted Riis flew up Hautacam in 1996 over two minutes quicker than Jonas V did today.
Lance also could not resist quoting his own doped climbing time and boasting words to the effect of: "If I was there today, I'd be in the mix." (without mentioning the doping, obviously).

Armstrong testing positive for EGO again

 

[Notarobot]

I don't know man. The roaring 90's are 20-30 years ago, sport is ever evolving. It would make sense riders can match or outdo performances that long ago (even when they were done with a little help back then...) . The material is better, their preparation* is better, their nutrition is better. All that does make a difference ofcourse. I just hope this amazing TdF will hold up for eternity. It's a great one.

*and with preparation I don't mean the usage of doping ofcourse

 

[Red Rick]

There's very little talk about doping in general, which is absurd considering the 'spectacle' on display.

Pogacar, Roglic, Bernal, Froome etc. all had/have to answer questions about doping when they were leading or winning the TdF. But WvA, Jumbo & Vingegaard just redefined the rules of cycling where fatigue & accumulated efforts have zero repercussions... yet what do we hear? So far just crickets. It's the craziest stuff I've seen but most people this morning seem to be 'buzzing' about the "best TdF in decades".

I mean take the Granon stage for example: Pogacar cracked & everyone says "it's because he responded to all the Jumbo attacks when he shouldn't have". Yet Vingegaard responded to all of Pogacar's attacks over two days in the Pyrenees & still just climbed without breathing. And on the same topic I can't even be bothered to dissect the absurdity & farcical aspect of Wout van Aert dropping Pogacar on Hautacam after being on the attack all day.

Van Aert dropping Pogacar makes sense to some degree considering for Van Aert it's a 4 minute interval when he's done a slower pace before and Kuss has put Pog on the limit.

A lot of the dominance of Vingegaard will be the effect of being significantly better that's then amplified by the repeated climbs on or over the limit for other riders while he's chilling.

Van Aerts performance I think isn'tthat out there in comparison to his previous climbs. The super outlier is Vingegaard. He looks crazy skinny, i wonder if he's on some insane fat burn drug.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Must be a lot of new fans to the sport here? But I do notice a few old timers in the comments they should know better. Yes the WvA Green jersey effort going on the attack from the gun then having enough power to drop Pog on Hautacam was possibly the most absurd thing I've seen since Floyd. Wiki puts him at 78Kg. What the?

Honestly, he looks even bigger, I'd say around 80kgs. The guy is just massive. 190cm tall.

 

[Cookster15]

Honestly, he looks even bigger, I'd say around 80kgs. The guy is just massive. 190cm tall.

Does anyone have Wout's wattage for Hautacam ?

 

[DenisMenchov]

I don't know man. The roaring 90's are 20-30 years ago, sport is ever evolving. It would make sense riders can match or outdo performances that long ago (even when they were done with a little help back then...) . The material is better, their preparation* is better, their nutrition is better. All that does make a difference ofcourse. I just hope this amazing TdF will hold up for eternity. It's a great one.

*and with preparation I don't mean the usage of doping ofcourse

lol, please don't try this. We've seen it all too many times before.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Van Aert is currently 76kg for 1m90

 

[Pantani_lives]

In 1994 and 1996 Hautacam was the only climb in the stage, wasn't it? This time there were three tough climbs, with heavy attacks on the penultimate climb. In a single climb stage Vingegaard might come close to Riis' time.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Van Aert is currently 76kg for 1m90

No way, Vingegaard is around 58kg and 175cm, so the difference between his height and weight is 117. And the guy looks crazy skinny and seems to have lighter bones structure. Van Aert's difference would be 114 in that case and he doesn't look skinny at all, on the contrary. I know you can't take some clear conclusions just based on height/weight difference but it can give you some image.

 

[Red Rick]

Honestly, he looks even bigger, I'd say around 80kgs. The guy is just massive. 190cm tall.

Van Aert wasn't 190 until he went to Jumbo and TT regulations required him to be.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

No way, Vingegaard is around 58kg and 175cm, so the difference between his height and weight is 117. And the guy looks crazy skinny and seems to have lighter bones structure. Van Aert's difference would be 114 in that case and he doesn't look skinny at all, on the contrary. I know you can't take some clear conclusions just based on height/weight difference but it can give you some image.

Van Aert was 78kg when he did CX. He became lighter on the road. His given weight even yesterday is 76kg.

 

[Rackham]

Van Aerts performance I think isn'tthat out there in comparison to his previous climbs. The super outlier is Vingegaard. He looks crazy skinny, i wonder if he's on some insane fat burn drug.

I seen various interesting time & power data this morning, for example in the final 4.48 km of the Hautacam climb, Vingegaard reportedly did a time of 11'54'' at 22.59km/h for 6,68 watts/kg. Compared to Riis in 1996 who did the same section in 12'08''.

This in my opinion should make people sit up & pay attention.

 

[Red Rick]

I seen various interesting time & power data this morning, for example in the final 4.48 km of the Hautacam climb, Vingegaard reportedly did a time of 11'54'' at 22.59km/h for 6,68 watts/kg. Compared to Riis in 1996 who did the same section in 12'08''.

This in my opinion should make people sit up & pay attention.

Taking subsectionf of climbs isn't that great. It also means Vingegaard lost over 2 minutes to Riis in the first 8 kilometers.

 

[Fantastico]

Van Aert dropping Pogacar makes sense to some degree considering for Van Aert it's a 4 minute interval when he's done a slower pace before and Kuss has put Pog on the limit.

Van Aert only lost about 2 minutes to Pogacar and Vingegaard at the climb before they reeled him in, and that as a much heavier guy, being in the break all-day, doing most of the work on the previous climb. He even demolished Pinot and Martinez. To assume that he was having an easy ride and saving energy while Pogacar was at his limit is a massive reach for me.

 

[Red Rick]

Van Aert only lost about 2 minutes to Pogacar and Vingegaard at the climb before they reeled him in, and that as a much heavier guy, being in the break all-day, doing most of the work on the previous climb. He even demolished Pinot and Martinez. To assume that he was having an easy ride and saving energy while Pogacar was at his limit is a massive reach for me.

2 minutes on 8 kilometers is very significant. Also Vingegaard went much faster in the last 4.5km than in the first 8km. Also he did Spandelles at a much lower W/kg.

Van Aert has been extraordinary, but most of his climbing is in the 5.5-5.7W/kg range and it's not at all like he destroyed Pogacar in a perfect 1v1.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Taking subsections of climbs isn't that great. It also means Vingegaard lost over 2 minutes to Riis in the first 8 kilometers.

Plausable, since it was Sepp Kuss pacing there

 

[Netserk]

I don't know man. The roaring 90's are 20-30 years ago, sport is ever evolving. It would make sense riders can match or outdo performances that long ago (even when they were done with a little help back then...) . The material is better, their preparation* is better, their nutrition is better. All that does make a difference ofcourse. I just hope this amazing TdF will hold up for eternity. It's a great one.

*and with preparation I don't mean the usage of doping ofcourse

I will grant you that small gradual improvements ("marginal gains") will accumulate over time. That certainly does matter when comparing with performances 25 years ago.

However, what we are witnessing is a stark and sudden increase in the level of the peloton over the last 4 years. Keep in mind that before that, the overall level was quite stable. Froome on Ventoux '13, Quintana on Alpe d'Huez '15 and on Portet '18 represent some of the best performances of that period, and the riders now are clearly superior to that.

Something (not so marginal) changed.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Van Aert wasn't 190 until he went to Jumbo and TT regulations required him to be.

Yeah that's also true. So maybe they're lying about his height only, but probably both.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Van Aert dropping Pogacar makes sense to some degree considering for Van Aert it's a 4 minute interval when he's done a slower pace before and Kuss has put Pog on the limit.

A lot of the dominance of Vingegaard will be the effect of being significantly better that's then amplified by the repeated climbs on or over the limit for other riders while he's chilling.

Van Aerts performance I think isn'tthat out there in comparison to his previous climbs. The super outlier is Vingegaard. He looks crazy skinny, i wonder if he's on some insane fat burn drug.

WVA's performance on the climb might not raise eyebrows numbers wise, but the fact that he was able to do that after spending most of the stage attacking or driving the pace is truly nuts.

 

[Mex_17]

I think at this point, it's safest to assume that all the top riders are doping. Pog and JV are playing another sport from the rest of the GC riders. Then you have WVA, who did an absolutely insane pull yesterday, eventually riding away from Pog, after killing himself for hours pulling the breakaway.

That being said, I didn't see this TdF as JV being suddenly better than Pog. The way I saw it, Pog maybe got a little cocky on Granon, or maybe he genuinely had a very very rare off day. JV was able to take big advantage on that one day.

All the other days of this Tour, it's looked like Pog was at least as good as JV, or maybe better. Put it this way, say Pog had a 10 second lead on JV after Granon. The races in the Pyrenees would have looked totally different. Instead of trying constant attacks, Pog could have ridden defensively, saved all his energy, and forced JV to try to attack. JV doesn't have the burst to attack uphill like Pog does, so I don't think JV could have ever made up that time.

If Pog hadn't attacked 5 times on the second climb yesterday, he surely would have been able to best JV on the final climb.

In short, I think if Pog didn't have one bad day on Granon, he would have won this Tour again, fairly easily. So I'm not convinced that JV is suddenly going to be the new best rider, or even routine competition for Pog. I think he was in the right place at the right time in this Tour.

 

[Laverna]

I think at this point, it's safest to assume that all the top riders are doping. Pog and JV are playing another sport from the rest of the GC riders.

Of course, all the top GC guys are on good stuff. But the performances of Pog and Vingegaard are still more 'credible' than the 36-year-old british track cyclist who is third overall.

 

[zlev11]

I seen various interesting time & power data this morning, for example in the final 4.48 km of the Hautacam climb, Vingegaard reportedly did a time of 11'54'' at 22.59km/h for 6,68 watts/kg. Compared to Riis in 1996 who did the same section in 12'08''.

This in my opinion should make people sit up & pay attention.

yes, the time for the last 5k is very disturbing. this may be crazy, but i think Vingegaard could've got close to Riis if he went flat out from the bottom or from 8k or something. he looked like he had a lot in reserve.

even in the 2000's, the full out blood doping years, going over 6w/kg for 35+ minutes was rare. Lance himself only did it a handful of times and his rivals did it very rarely (Mayo on AdH was only 6.1). the Froome years were similar to that. these guys in this race are doing multiple climbs in a row at 6.3-6.6. it is truly crazy, they haven't gone this fast since pre-EPO test. if these other GC riders join the arms race next year we could really see something insane.

 

[Fantastico]

I think at this point, it's safest to assume that all the top riders are doping.

Of course, they are.

All the other days of this Tour, it's looked like Pog was at least as good as JV, or maybe better.

I don't agree. He is punchier than Vingegaard, so he gained a few seconds (plus bonuses) in the first week, but in the high mountains there was not one stage where he seemed stronger than Vingegaard. On the contrary, it rather felt as Vingegaard was restraining himself after getting yellow, trying not to spend too much energy by trying to distance Pogacar before Hautacam.

If Pog hadn't attacked 5 times on the second climb yesterday, he surely would have been able to best JV on the final climb.

I highly doubt it. Pogacar did not manage to distance Vingegaard one single time, while Vingegaard completely destroyed him on Granon and Hautacam. Moreover, I don't get this narrative of Pogacar wasting too much energy by attacking a lot. Vingegaard had to cover all these attacks, so he basically had to make the same efforts, and still he was way fresher on the final climb.

It's kind of funny how Pogacar responding to all those Jumbo attacks on Galibier is used as an explanation for him beeing cooked at Granon, but yesterday not the same argument seems to apply to Vingegaard. Instead the explanation is the exact opposite, namely that Pogacar was cooked because he had attacked too much. [I know that I'm simplifying a bit because at Galibier Pogacar countered attacks by Vingegaard and Roglic.]

In the mountains Vingegaard was just stronger than Pogacar, it's simple as that.

 

[tonymikejoe]

The last couple of TourdeFrance winners (Egan Bernal & Pogacar) were, according to the experts, going to dominate the race for the next decade.
How has that turned out?
Nobody has said that (yet) about Jonas V. Why not?
Do the contributors on here think he will be 'One and Done'? or do you see him winning multiple TourdeFrance's?
Ps. I was just wondering. Who is Jonas V? Did anybody see him coming?

 

[noob]

The last couple of TourdeFrance winners (Egan Bernal & Pogacar) were, according to the experts, going to dominate the race for the next decade.
How has that tuned out?
Nobody has said that (yet) about Jonas V. Why not?
Do the contributors on here think he will be 'One and Done'? or do you see him winning multiple TourdeFrance's?
Ps. I was just wondering. Who is Jonas V? Did anybody see him coming?

noob did see him coming, but I thought it would take a year or two more Also didn't dare to hope

Also Lanterne Rouge before the tour 2021 predicted he could be 2 in the tour I believe!