Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[ciranda]

Last year was a meteoric rise from obscurity

Still not correct no matter how many times you type it.

 

[Netserk]

Today was nearly a dead flat TT which is the least suitable for climbers. Yes I know at end of a GT it’s also about recovery but where do you get the power from when you weigh 60kg (Contador was 62Kg)? This is worse than Contador Annecy 2009. At least when AC beat Cancellara there was a climb.

It was a rolling route today with a lower average speed (50.9 km/h) than both ITTs last year (51.0 and 51.5 km/h).

Annecy was at 50.1 km/h.

The dead flat ITT in Tirreno was at 54.6 km/h.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

In a way yes

I hope I don't break forum rules here. And I shall probably regret my own honesty. Here goes:

In all honesty elite athletes would never be my kind of people either way. I don't have anything in common with someone like Vingegaard, apart from maybe adhd and a poker face. But that I share with lots of guys in the peleton

It's more like I look for the Armstrongs, the dark triad and red flags, and so far I see those in some riders that I am a fan of. For example despite admiring Wout beauty on a cx bike I would run far away from him in real life. He excudes an arrogance I associate with narcissism. Pog does as well to some extent. Even Almeida gives me red flags of a slightly different kind but still Jonas none, zero.

Roglic I feel like he's not the narcissistic kind but instead appears like someone chasing kicks, highs, and challenges like an addict. He appears like addicted to his own hormones. He does remind me of people who climb the highest most challenging most dangerous mountains and falls to an early death.

Meanwhile I really see no red flags with Jonas apart from extreme doping. He excudes innocence, gullibility and vulnerability.

(And my intuition, or rather life experience, tells me I am probably fooled by Jonas . )

Fair enough. I'd just say proceed with caution, some of the biggest media and general public darlings can be the biggest dopers also. (Marion Jones comes to mind, for example.)

Having said that personally I like Jonas' personality - he seems humble enough to share the credit with everyone else for now, but that doesn't mean I think he's clean.

 

[Cookster15]

Like I said in the post you quoted: I'm not arguing he's clean.

LOL, but Jonas says he is totally clean.

Vingegaard: Jumbo-Visma are totally clean, you have to trust us | Cyclingnews .

The article makes clear why I find him mega suspect ...

the scale of his progression since turning professional with Jumbo-Visma in 2019 has been striking. In that debut season, for instance, he placed 22nd out of 57 starters in the Danish time trial championships, losing almost three minutes to Kasper Asgreen in 39.8km

Vingo's explanation? Aerodynamics. These guys really are a piece of work.

 

[Cookster15]

Still not correct no matter how many times you type it.

Its not just me.
Vingegaard: Jumbo-Visma are totally clean, you have to trust us | Cyclingnews

but the scale of his progression since turning professional with Jumbo-Visma in 2019 has been striking

 

[noob]

Fair enough. I'd just say proceed with caution, some of the biggest media and general public darlings can be the biggest dopers also. (Marion Jones comes to mind, for example.)

Having said that personally I like Jonas' personality - he seems humble enough to share the credit with everyone else for now, but that doesn't mean I think he's clean.

This exactly! He seems humble for real. So. Far.

And how weird in the midst of my analysis of Wout he does exactly the things I expected him to already last year. Scary.

 

[Riek s]

Still not correct no matter how many times you type it.

In that debut season, for instance, he placed 22nd out of 57 starters in the Danish time trial championships, losing almost three minutes to Kasper Asgreen in 39.8km.


On Saturday, in a time trial of similar distance, Vingegaard averaged 50.559 kph to place second behind Van Aert, but ahead of men like Pogačar, Geraint Thomas and the world time trial champion Filippo Ganna.

You can say what you want on that, but he is performing on the level of Remco in these TTs and Remco was winning TTs against the pro and 2nd in the WC ITT of his debut year.

FYI that is the same explanation as Froome had for his improved TT. I trained and became more aero.

I agree Aero dynamics make a huge difference... but that is when you go from nothing to something. Small tweaks make a difference in seconds, not minutes.

If you want to know where he was:

National Championships Denmark ME - ITT 2019 Time Trial results

Kasper Asgreen is the winner of National Championships Denmark ME - ITT 2019, before Martin Toft Madsen and Johan Price-Pejtersen.

www.procyclingstats.com

Not saying you can't improve, for sure you can. But that is something entirely different in a year time to go slower on a faster parcour then what he is doing now (and a year ago). A good TTer doesn't come out of nowhere... Either you have it, or you doped to get it.

 

[roundabout]

That's how I remembered it, maybe just cause I wanted him to race the Giro with a free role. Apologies. Does it change anything? After his good result in Itzulia he was selected to replace Dumoulin in TDF.

imo, going to the Giro 2021 would have meant more of a free role with only Bennett as the obvious captain at the start vs the Vuelta where the original plan had Kruijswijk and Kuss leading as far as I remember

my impression is that giving leadership/free roles means that a rider is higher in the team hierarchy than a 100% dedicated helper

 

[hfer07]

When I thought Pogacar was too much, Vingeggard rises to the occasion to prove us silly.....
damn.... talking about going "thermonuclear"...
I bet Jonas cellphone gets full recharge when he makes a phone call....

 

[Riek s]

was looking for more info on him, to find a picture on his TT position from 2019....
found this marvel:

Interview | Heijboer over Vingegaard: 'Men zei: de instellingen van de windmeter kloppen niet, maar Jonas zit gewoon heel laag' | Wieler Revue

Jonas Vingegaard is qua postuur een echte klimmer, maar de Deen heeft ook een hele goede tijdrit in de benen. Hoe kan dat? Mathieu Heijboer geeft uitleg.

wielerrevue.nl

Its in dutch, but a good one:

Jonas Vingegaard is iemand die van nature een goede houding heeft. Ondanks dat hij het postuur heeft van een pure klimmer eindigde hij in beide Tourtijdritten als derde. Heijboer: “Jonas kan vanuit een hele aerodynamische positie zijn kracht kwijt. We zijn met hem nog niet in de windtunnel geweest (interview vond plaats in september, inmiddels is Vingegaard wel in de windtunnel geweest, red.), want door de pandemie was het in de winter moeilijk voor hem om te reizen.”

Jnoas is someone who has a natural good position. Despite his posture being that of a pure climber, he ended in both TT in the tour as 3rd. Heijboer: " Jonas can push a lot of power from a very aerodynamic position. We haven't been with him to a windtunnel (interview was around september 2021, but now he has been). Because due to the pandemic it wasn't possible to travel in the winter.


They tested him with other equipment and his CdA was very low that even the people in England who watched thought that is was invalid. So basically he sucked at TT but we convinced him through numbers he would be very good at it.

 

[hender-retour]

I had some difficulty translating the silence of the danish commentary crew of Rolf Sørensen and Dennis Ritter. They seemed on one hand emotional and happy but they've seen this before with Riis and Rasmussen so have to measure their words.

They totally failed to adress the elephant in the room obviously but they work under certain guidelines where proven guilty is king.

Ruining the party with historical references doesn't make happy wievers.

JV clearly showed how it's really done this year. Blame Jonas all you want, but don't tell me he is worse than Pog.

 

[BR2]

I had some difficulty translating the silence of the danish commentary crew of Rolf Sørensen and Dennis Ritter. They seemed on one hand emotional and happy but they've seen this before with Riis and Rasmussen so have to measure their words.

They totally failed to adress the elephant in the room obviously but they work under certain guidelines where proven guilty is king.

Ruining the party with historical references doesn't make happy wievers.

JV clearly showed how it's really done this year. Blame Jonas all you want, but don't tell me he is worse than Pog.

He's not. But van Aert is. My, before the Tour I really didn't expect me to say this.

It's not Vingegaard as an individual, that's very clear, it's the team.

 

[ciranda]

imo, going to the Giro 2021 would have meant more of a free role with only Bennett as the obvious captain at the start vs the Vuelta where the original plan had Kruijswijk and Kuss leading as far as I remember

my impression is that giving leadership/free roles means that a rider is higher in the team hierarchy than a 100% dedicated helper

Yeah for sure, that was his position at the beginning of the year but that changed after the strong result in Itzulia. Maybe it was actually after Itzulia I hoped he could do Giro and was disappointed that they chose him for TDF support instead. They were always careful with him after the sort of meltdown he had in Tour de Pologne where he couldn't fall asleep after winning the stage and dropped immediately the day after.

 

[Red Rick]

He's not. But van Aert is. My, before the Tour I really didn't expect me to say this.

It's not Vingegaard as an individual, that's very clear, it's the team.

Vingegaard would have beaten Van Aert in the TT if he didn't start celebrating in the final km already.

But the issue is really that it seems so team wide. Pogacar is an individual.

 

[ppanther92]

One more thing. Is he a skinny cyclist? No.

I mean, depending on the range of weights you can find for both, he is 6-8kg lighter than Pogacar, while latter is only 2cm taller.

 

[ppanther92]

Still not correct no matter how many times you type it.

Well, we can discuss how many of his non-results were driven by bad luck and other circumstances (and I am not even saying some reasons are not valid) but what do you think the odds would have been on a podium finish at the TdF 21. Quite high, right?

 

[hender-retour]

Vingegaard would have beaten Van Aert in the TT if he didn't start celebrating in the final km already.

But the issue is really that it seems so team wide. Pogacar is an individual.

I think WVA won that the second Vinge almost crashed, but that is irrelevant.

Do You really believe UAE has a stance that let only TP dope or is it more plausible they got over confident and didn't dope the rest enough to help him win?

I don't see a scenario where TP is the only doper on UAE and doing it by himself.
I can see a scenario where they give him free reign and the rest is more moderate.

That should change next year. And then what will You say?

 

[iceblink]

Vingegaard would have beaten Van Aert in the TT if he didn't start celebrating in the final km already.

But the issue is really that it seems so team wide. Pogacar is an individual.

erm, NcNulty the other day had to "out" himself after UAE lost another (superhuman) rider Majka at last minute.

Thomas said he couldn't keep pace with McNulty's "Warp Speed" up the mountain, along with everyone else apart from mutants Pogacar and Vingegaard

 

[BR2]

Vingegaard would have beaten Van Aert in the TT if he didn't start celebrating in the final km already.

But the issue is really that it seems so team wide. Pogacar is an individual.

McNulty that day also looked--- uhm, different. But yeah, otherwise it seems to be focussed on Pogacar.

 

[BR2]

I think WVA won that the second Vinge almost crashed, but that is irrelevant.

Do You really believe UAE has a stance that let only TP dope or is it more plausible they got over confident and didn't dope the rest enough to help him win?

I don't see a scenario where TP is the only doper on UAE and doing it by himself.
I can see a scenario where they give him free reign and the rest is more moderate.

That should change next year. And then what will You say?

I don't think Pogacar is doing it on his own. But I think they are not going for the team glory, but would rather sell Pogacar as a demi-god, the new Merckx, old fashioned cycling, a real hero. It looked like they did get a bit overconfident. But I'm not sure about that. I wonder if they are using the same as Jumbo, if they are applying it differently. Maybe their methods reached their limit. Maybe they are working below a certain limit. Maybe other things in the legal preparation just went wrong. Or maybe they didn't want to overdo it to make Pogacar the lone sympathetic hero who loses against Jumbo power, only to come back next year...

 

[Rollthedice]

I mean, depending on the range of weights you can find for both, he is 6-8kg lighter than Pogacar, while latter is only 2cm taller.

Actually his weight should be similar to Quintana while being 8 cm taller.

 

[hrotha]

Pogačar and UAE are definitely not victims for coming second best in the arms race

 

[hender-retour]

I think J

Pogačar and UAE are definitely not victims for coming second best in the arms race

That is the short easy and better way to say what I was thinking.

 

[ciranda]

I mean, depending on the range of weights you can find for both, he is 6-8kg lighter than Pogacar, while latter is only 2cm taller.

I don't see it. Skinny compared to normal people for sure but not to other stage race cyclists, see my comparison in the earlier post.

 

[Cookster15]

I mean, depending on the range of weights you can find for both, he is 6-8kg lighter than Pogacar, while latter is only 2cm taller.

Yes lets think about this. 6-8kg lighter than Pogacar yet today he beats Pogacar by 8 seconds on a flat / rolling course over 40km and finishes just 19 seconds behind the rampant and best we have seen WvA.

As Red Rick pointed out Vingegaard would have beaten Van Aert in the TT if he didn't start celebrating in the final km already.

The words thermonuclear, mutant and unbelievable come to mind.