Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[Krzysztof_O]

Vingo at the Tour will be scary, a level above last year.

Yeah, he thinks he still hasn't reached his fishing peak. If UAE isn't confident Pog will reach his absolute peak at the Tour they had better consider other options!

 

[Extinction]

It's funny how Pog has been cast in the limelight by the pundits, with Vingeggard almost seen as a one trick pony, his Tour victory having been, if not a fluke, only the result of favorable circumstances. But Vingo could be one to make the Vroome-Vroomie program look like child's play.

 

[Riek s]

It's funny how Pog has been cast in the limelight by the pundits, with Vingeggard almost seen as a one trick pony, his Tour victory having been, if not a fluke, only the result of favorable circumstances. But Vingo could be one to make the Vroome-Vroomie program look like child's play.

Can we still name him a one trick rider at this point?

He has won more races this year than his whole carreer combined i think.

 

[Extinction]

Can we still name him a one trick rider at this point?

He has won more races this year than his whole carreer combined i think.

Yea, I know, but losing to Pog at PN and then the latter's continued classics success, has made people think the Slovenian is in a class of his own, when it's Vingo who may be the king.

 

[Red Rick]

Real *** going down would be for Vingegaard to simply hit this kind of form in Lombardia and just delete Pogacar on Civiglio.

 

[Riek s]

Real *** going down would be for Vingegaard to simply hit this kind of form in Lombardia and just delete Pogacar on Civiglio.

From what we have seen this year on these kind of climbs from Vingegaard, i honestly don't understand why he couldn't/can't compete with Pog in Lombardia.
So I think that moment you describe may eventually happen.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Ferarri was not simply a doping doctor

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh at this quote. We're never going to agree on Evans, so yeah let's just end that discussion.

And we can't be critical of universally derided Froome and not be equally critical of Vingegaard as a "product" of the cycling environment. As others above have since chimed in, Vingegaard's career trajectory looks very suspicious. Particularly when we consider he rose at he exact moment JV lost their top rider due to injury. Riders with talent to do what we are now seeing only since 2021 should have shown much better results as a younger age. I don't feel this is explained by his problems in 2017.

Well I'm not actually being critical of Froome either, because again he was just the rider Sky found who could challenge the top riders from the other teams. Also I'm actually willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in terms of how his early career might have been affected by bilharzia. Sure it wasn't what was stopping him from winning GTs before 2011, but it might have made him look worse than he was. Just like Vingegaard's injuries and lack of luck may have done with him. But again they only became world beaters after they joined the top 6 of most doped riders of the time.

As for Vingegaard, I still have to say that his rise began before Roglič crashed out of the 2021 Tour. You're making it sound like they only decided to give the him their best stuff after that event, but he had already been riding around on it for months in advance and was presumably also going into the Tour on whatever they we're using at the time.

 

[BR2]

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh at this quote. We're never going to agree on Evans, so yeah let's just end that discussion.


Well I'm not actually being critical of Froome either, because again he was just the rider Sky found who could challenge the top riders from the other teams. Also I'm actually willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in terms of how his early career might have been affected by bilharzia. Sure it wasn't what was stopping him from winning GTs before 2011, but it might have made him look worse than he was. Just like Vingegaard's injuries and lack of luck may have done with him. But again they only became world beaters after they joined the top 6 of most doped riders of the time.

As for Vingegaard, I still have to say that his rise began before Roglič crashed out of the 2021 Tour. You're making it sound like they only decided to give the him their best stuff after that event, but he had already been riding around on it for months in advance and was presumably also going into the Tour on whatever they we're using at the time.

With Vingegaard I won't forget the "Chris Harper" incident. Of course there are certain commentators who will always misidentify riders but it was indeed very surprising to see Vingegaard up there, I think nobody expected it. That was the break-out moment of Vingegaard for me.

 

[Cookster15]

Yea, I know, but losing to Pog at PN and then the latter's continued classics success, has made people think the Slovenian is in a class of his own, when it's Vingo who may be the king.

TBF the manner of his loss to Pog at PN was comprehensive. Pog nonchalantly rode him off his wheel on a decent climb. How things have changed since then. At least Vingo has added the Dauphine to his repertoire so we can’t call him a one trick pony 😉

 

[Rackham]

It's been documented that Roglič looked at Vingegaard's numbers before the 2021 Tour de France & apparently said 'Vinge can win the Tour with those numbers'.

I think Vingegaard is simply a super responder in a team which had perfected whatever program they're on before he became a prominent rider. In that respect he's benefitted immensely from the foundational work done at Jumbo between 2016 & 2020. I'm sure the team tried something with Tobias Foss as well (aka winner of the Tour de l'Avenir) but it hasn't worked out. So I have no issue with people looking at top riders in modern pro cycling & stating the obvious with regards to the clinical realities underlining these sorts of mutant performances (like all sports tbh, i.e. I'm sure Djoko is going to win Rolland this afternoon paniagua... just kidding), i.e. it's the opposite which really grates, aka hypocrisy when someone might say "oh look those Slovenians are suspect as f***" & then in the next breath they're eulogizing other riders for being natural talents.

This sort of stuff where dope accusations are just another part of fanboy wars is all over social media. It's why I also don't really care for early performances when a rider is racing at a youth level or whatnot because when someone is going to cross the line, there's no age requirement. It's not "oh sh*t I'm not 18 yet, oh well I'll look forwards to getting on the clinical stuff later".

There's just varying levels of expertise & IMO Jumbo are really top notch at the performance enhancement aspect (although they did get blown away by UAE in 2020, something which I think might have played a role in their subsequent creation of Vingegaard). The only aspect which gives me a moment of pause is the question "are they overdoing this stuff?" because we all know French cops like to be trigger happy & all it takes is a little phone call from someone in a position of authority for there to be another Bahrain type incident which can damage the team's reputation - even when they find nothing.

 

[Extinction]

TBF the manner of his loss to Pog at PN was comprehensive. Pog nonchalantly rode him off his wheel on a decent climb. How things have changed since then. At least Vingo has added the Dauphine to his repertoire so we can’t call him a one trick pony 😉

Evidently, however, Pog has a really high floor, but perhaps Vingo has the higher ceiling.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

With Vingegaard I won't forget the "Chris Harper" incident. Of course there are certain commentators who will always misidentify riders but it was indeed very surprising to see Vingegaard up there, I think nobody expected it. That was the break-out moment of Vingegaard for me.

After his win in Poland and Angliru performance, I'll say it would actually have been more surprising if it had been Harper, who at that point hadn't showed much in bigger races. But as a Dane I was of course more aware of his existence than Harper's.

 

[Cookster15]

Evidently, however, Pog has a really high floor, but perhaps Vingo has the higher ceiling.

This makes sense. But I cannot reconcile this with Pog’s ride on LPdBF in 2020 TdF. The ceiling for that day seemed stratospheric.

 

[Red Rick]

It's been documented that Roglič looked at Vingegaard's numbers before the 2021 Tour de France & apparently said 'Vinge can win the Tour with those numbers'.

I think Vingegaard is simply a super responder in a team which had perfected whatever program they're on before he became a prominent rider. In that respect he's benefitted immensely from the foundational work done at Jumbo between 2016 & 2020. I'm sure the team tried something with Tobias Foss as well (aka winner of the Tour de l'Avenir) but it hasn't worked out. So I have no issue with people looking at top riders in modern pro cycling & stating the obvious with regards to the clinical realities underlining these sorts of mutant performances (like all sports tbh, i.e. I'm sure Djoko is going to win Rolland this afternoon paniagua... just kidding), i.e. it's the opposite which really grates, aka hypocrisy when someone might say "oh look those Slovenians are suspect as f***" & then in the next breath they're eulogizing other riders for being natural talents.

This sort of stuff where dope accusations are just another part of fanboy wars is all over social media. It's why I also don't really care for early performances when a rider is racing at a youth level or whatnot because when someone is going to cross the line, there's no age requirement. It's not "oh sh*t I'm not 18 yet, oh well I'll look forwards to getting on the clinical stuff later".

There's just varying levels of expertise & IMO Jumbo are really top notch at the performance enhancement aspect (although they did get blown away by UAE in 2020, something which I think might have played a role in their subsequent creation of Vingegaard). The only aspect which gives me a moment of pause is the question "are they overdoing this stuff?" because we all know French cops like to be trigger happy & all it takes is a little phone call from someone in a position of authority for there to be another Bahrain type incident which can damage the team's reputation - even when they find nothing.

Why would the French want to bust the biggest, most popular riders? It's not gonna make the Tour de France get better viewing numbers.

Literally everyone in the cycling industry benefits from total silence, with the sole exception of guys like Vayer who can make a brand out of shouting at the clouds.

 

[Rackham]

Why would the French want to bust the biggest, most popular riders? It's not gonna make the Tour de France get better viewing numbers.

Literally everyone in the cycling industry benefits from total silence, with the sole exception of guys like Vayer who can make a brand out of shouting at the clouds.

It doesn't need to make sense. It didn't make sense when Marie-George Buffet (sports minister in 1998) torpedoed French yellow jersey dreams with Virenque. Some people just get an idea in their heads & want to create some headlines. It's not like France operates as a singular voice on stuff like this either, i.e. a local Préfecture can basically do whatever they want when it comes to a drug bust. I didn't believe for one minute Vayer was responsible for the Bahrain police raids either, i.e. what happens is usually an authority figure somewhere wants a show of force & the Tour becomes a good pretext to do so. Ergo they smack the most obvious target.

I don't know of course but I'm just saying, i.e. Jumbo going all in & not hiding anything performance wise is pretty eye opening for me. Personally speaking I'd tone some of this stuff down (like winning 4 stages in the Dauphiné & having a 2 minute lead in GC) when it's unnecessary & they're going to win the TdF next month anyway if everything goes according to plan.

And Jumbo didn't exactly respond well when journalists asked some dope related questions after the Tour last year either (WvA had a mini rant). I just think a little self-awareness regarding 'how' a lot of people view superhuman cycling performances might be a good idea in the peloton.

Because right now it looks like top teams are on a mission to break climbing records & absolutely show their strength versus their adversaries whenever they get the chance.

 

[Red Rick]

It doesn't need to make sense. It didn't make sense when Marie-George Buffet (sports minister in 1998) torpedoed French yellow jersey dreams with Virenque. Some people just get an idea in their heads & want to create some headlines. It's not like France operates as a singular voice on stuff like this either, i.e. a local Préfecture can basically do whatever they want when it comes to a drug bust. I didn't believe for one minute Vayer was responsible for the Bahrain police raids either, i.e. what happens is usually an authority figure somewhere wants a show of force & the Tour becomes a good pretext to do so. Ergo they smack the most obvious target.

I don't know of course but I'm just saying, i.e. Jumbo going all in & not hiding anything performance wise is pretty eye opening for me. Personally speaking I'd tone some of this stuff down (like winning 4 stages in the Dauphiné & having a 2 minute lead in GC) when it's unnecessary & they're going to win the TdF next month anyway if everything goes according to plan.

And Jumbo didn't exactly respond well when journalists asked some dope related questions after the Tour last year either (WvA had a mini rant). I just think a little self-awareness regarding 'how' a lot of people view superhuman cycling performances might be a good idea in the peloton.

Because right now it looks like top teams are on a mission to break climbing records & absolutely show their strength versus their adversaries whenever they get the chance.

Well Van Aert is gonna tone it down this Tour. Probably.

 

[BR2]

Well Van Aert is gonna tone it down this Tour. Probably.

Why? Serious question, if the riders know nobody is getting busted no matter - and I think we are at this point where that is the case, at least no big names - why should they hold back?

 

[Red Rick]

Why? Serious question, if the riders know nobody is getting busted no matter - and I think we are at this point where that is the case, at least no big names - why should they hold back?

It's not for Clinical reasons, it's because he was completely exhausted after the TdF last year and he wants to peak for the WC in Glasgow

 

[Cookster15]

Why would the French want to bust the biggest, most popular riders? It's not gonna make the Tour de France get better viewing numbers.

Literally everyone in the cycling industry benefits from total silence, with the sole exception of guys like Vayer who can make a brand out of shouting at the clouds.

In the context of what happened in the 1998 Tour I don’t understand this point of view.

I also don’t get the impression that the French were sad to see Armstrong’s demise.

 

[Red Rick]

In the context of what happened in the 1998 Tour I don’t understand this point of view.

I also don’t get the impression that the French were sad to see Armstrong’s demise.

Armstrongs demise which conveniently happened in 2012, when the new empire was just around the corner.

 

[Rackham]

Armstrong's first proper demise happened in 2005 when L'Equipe ran with the "le mensonge Armstrong" headline about his positive retroactive EPO finding relating to samples taken during the 99 TdF.

It was simply too late to do anything about it in terms of actual punishment.

Also, it could be argued his downfall started in the 2004 & 2005 Tours when the US Postal team (& then Discovery) started to become a little bit embarrassing, like Hincapie winning a mountain stage & other domestiques also super performing to the point of taking the p*ss.

It should be noted the mood after the 2003 Tour was super positive (pun intended), i.e. 'people' (audiences & press alike) absolutely loved the Armstrong-Ullrich duel in that Tour which is even today still considered one of the best ever (even with clinical matters taken into account). It was the greed though in the 2004 & 2005 Tours which pretty much f*cked him & his entire team in terms of public relations. Like the general awkwardness expressed by everyone when he sprinted past Klöden just for another power flex, or riding over the 'EPO Lance' road marking as he mowed down Basso on the Alpe ITT.

And this is one of the reasons why I mentioned the fact Jumbo need to be careful, i.e. for example Bahrain's problems with the authorities pretty much started after Padun's one man demolition job of the Dauphiné's weekend mountains stages a few years ago. All that was required for sh*t to hit the fan was for a few complaints from French teams, some disquiet among the press, accusations of greed etc. & suddenly Bahrain were in the crosshairs of the cops.

 

[Extinction]

This makes sense. But I cannot reconcile this with Pog’s ride on LPdBF in 2020 TdF. The ceiling for that day seemed stratospheric.

Yea, however, Rog had a sans jour too (nerves?). Pog was a monster though. But he needs to do another LPdBF against Vingo's Granon to get a better sense.

 

[gunara]

It's funny how Pog has been cast in the limelight by the pundits, with Vingeggard almost seen as a one trick pony, his Tour victory having been, if not a fluke, only the result of favorable circumstances. But Vingo could be one to make the Vroome-Vroomie program look like child's play.

Certainly, there are things I didn't see with peak Froome that I've seen with him. In spring Chris did a routine 13 k hand-in-hand show with RIchie in l'Ospedale, this guy obliterated everyone in hilly Itzulia. He did more things. And always look more casual, too.

 

[Extinction]

It's been documented that Roglič looked at Vingegaard's numbers before the 2021 Tour de France & apparently said 'Vinge can win the Tour with those numbers'.

I think Vingegaard is simply a super responder in a team which had perfected whatever program they're on before he became a prominent rider. In that respect he's benefitted immensely from the foundational work done at Jumbo between 2016 & 2020. I'm sure the team tried something with Tobias Foss as well (aka winner of the Tour de l'Avenir) but it hasn't worked out. So I have no issue with people looking at top riders in modern pro cycling & stating the obvious with regards to the clinical realities underlining these sorts of mutant performances (like all sports tbh, i.e. I'm sure Djoko is going to win Rolland this afternoon paniagua... just kidding), i.e. it's the opposite which really grates, aka hypocrisy when someone might say "oh look those Slovenians are suspect as f***" & then in the next breath they're eulogizing other riders for being natural talents.

This sort of stuff where dope accusations are just another part of fanboy wars is all over social media. It's why I also don't really care for early performances when a rider is racing at a youth level or whatnot because when someone is going to cross the line, there's no age requirement. It's not "oh sh*t I'm not 18 yet, oh well I'll look forwards to getting on the clinical stuff later".

There's just varying levels of expertise & IMO Jumbo are really top notch at the performance enhancement aspect (although they did get blown away by UAE in 2020, something which I think might have played a role in their subsequent creation of Vingegaard). The only aspect which gives me a moment of pause is the question "are they overdoing this stuff?" because we all know French cops like to be trigger happy & all it takes is a little phone call from someone in a position of authority for there to be another Bahrain type incident which can damage the team's reputation - even when they find nothing.

Once upon a time it was possible to shine young before turning pro and then keep it up on the normal regime with the big boys. But then blood vector doping kicked in, performance technology and mega-budgets. The rest is history. Now you need a serious program as a teenager. I really doubt, however, that being astonished by Slovenian cycling is an issue. For all of a sudden Slovenia has produced not one, but two world beaters, one after the other, with a population of just 2 million. This doesn't mean Slovenia is any more dirty, just more eyebrow raising.

 

[Rackham]

Once upon a time it was possible to shine young before turning pro and then keep it up on the normal regime with the big boys. But then blood vector doping kicked in, performance technology and mega-budgets. The rest is history. Now you need a serious program as a teenager. I really doubt, however, that being astonished by Slovenian cycling is an issue. All of a sudden Slovenia has produced not one, but two world beaters, one after the other, with a population of just 4 million. This doesn't mean Slovenia is any more dirty, just more eyebrow raising.

I'm also pretty sure those will be the only two Slovenian GT winners for quite a while. So I mean sure taken at face value there's obviously going to be some head scratching going on regarding the emergence of Rog & Pog, but their stories & path to the top are so different & unique they're not IMO indicative of a systematic Slovenian approach to mass producing cycling champs with a state backed operation (or something similar). Like Roglič with a DIY (do it yourself) path into pro-cycling where he landed in the former Rabobank team which had totally lost its position among the top teams (& it took them years to get it right), whilst Pog became a protégé of Gianetti.

I'm obviously not saying PED's weren't involved, I'm just saying they were once-in-a-lifetime situations which resulted in their rise to the top, i.e. for example both their teams (UAE & Jumbo) subsequently started looking inwards within the usual cycling powerhouses for future prospects & the 'next gen' after the Slovenians are Danish (Vingegaard) & Spanish (Ayuso).

I don't see how another young Slovenian rider is going to make his way to the 'right place at the right time' type of deal anytime soon because they don't exactly have the structure for it. I also think there was a void after Sky quit the sport (with their ultra British Empire stuff going on) & Jumbo & UAE filled the void. Pog & Rog were there at the right time.

Now UAE & Jumbo are the 'Empires' & Jumbo replaced Rog as number one in their team with Vingegaard whilst UAE has Pog racing everything (i.e. not just a focus on the Tour).