Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[ThisFrenchGuy]

Since we're on Lance, bio passports, and what was uncovered in the past painstakingly : Seems the most effective ways to combat doping is busting the doctors and medical operations that make sophisticated, systemic doping possible. That's probably more for police than sporting authorities per se though. And as such gated behind an higher threshold of political will to do so.

I think there's enough knowledge of who the key players & accointances were / are that it wouldn't be so hard to triangulate some of those operations.

Tests, passports, etc are all necessary but it's a whack a mole game, same as periodic raids on teams.

 

[RobertCrawley]

So what good is the biological passport then?

Let us just say they *should* have been used back then.

They are a major part of the anti-doping toolkit today.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Lance has all the markings of a sociopath. If people mean that this characteristic makes you more likely to succeed in business, particularly in the US, that's an indictment of American capitalism not a positive trait to be admired.

It's awesome that Europeans never harmed anyone in the pursuit of wealth.

 

[RobertCrawley]

It was also clear that his suspicious values weren't enough to trip the wire back then, and that was when the UCI was at least nominally willing to prosecute biological passport cases, before the Kreuziger debacle. And you think doping methods would not have gotten better since then?

It's an arms race. The biological passport came out 15 (fifteen) years ago. People adapt

Sure they do adapt. But biological passports identify things a rider's body is not supposed to do. So regardless of the substance, when an athlete's body produces X or Y and it's not supposed to, it's a clear doping signature.

Are dopers working to defeat the biological passport system? Sure. But consider how hard to use a substance to increase performance but not have the body show it as irregular.

Are there flaws to the biological passport system? Yes. One of the big ones is that you have to test often. That doesn't always happen with riders who are pannekoeks.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Let us just say they *should* have been used back then.

They are a major part of the anti-doping toolkit today.

We all know that I am relatively sure, also basically how it works. Informing people here about it won't change much.

But as you are very confident that this is all normal: what do you think explains the new speeds?

 

[RobertCrawley]

Since we're on Lance, bio passports, and what was uncovered in the past painstakingly : Seems the most effective ways to combat doping is busting the doctors and medical operations that make sophisticated, systemic doping possible. That's probably more for police than sporting authorities per se though. And as such gated behind an higher threshold of political will to do so.

I think there's enough knowledge of who the key players & accointances were / are that it wouldn't be so hard to triangulate some of those operations.

Tests, passports, etc are all necessary but it's a whack a mole game, same as periodic raids on teams.

Yep, also whistle blowing is a big part of the anti-doping.

 

[RobertCrawley]

We all know that I am relatively sure, also basically how it works. Informing people here about it won't change much.

But as you are very confident that this is all normal: what do you think explains the new speeds?

Better training methods, equipment, nutrition, sleep, etc. Sky had so much success early on because they invested an enormous amount of money in these areas. But now other teams like Jumbo have also made similar investments, and they are equal or superior to Sky. And all of cycling has taken a step up.

By the way, I am NOT confident that the entire peloton is normal. I just know that the big names in the sport have tremendous scrutiny of the biological passports. Cheating would be very difficult for them. We'll know if it happens.

 

[ManicJack]

Let's get into a nationalist argument. You people are F'n lame

 

[RobertCrawley]

America sucks. Take it somewhere else.

I'm agreeing with you. Europe is innocent as a new born lamb.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Better training methods, equipment, nutrition, sleep, etc. Sky had so much success early on because they invested an enormous amount of money in these areas. But now other teams like Jumbo have also made similar investments, and they are equal or superior to Sky.

You do realise that this is the exact same story basically everyone has told who ever wanted to explain their results when they doped? Also as it has been pointed out: the speeds made a jump. How does better methods lead to a sudden jump, I for one did not hear of the "new methods" everybody now uses for 3 years and hasn't done before.

 

[RobertCrawley]

You do realise that this is the exact same story basically everyone has told who ever wanted to explain their results when they doped? Also as it has been pointed out: the speeds made a jump. How does better methods lead to a sudden jump, I for one did not hear of the "new methods" everybody now uses for 3 years and hasn't done before.

Sure it's the same story. But the facts are different now.

Actually, you have heard of the "new training" methods. For example, altitude training. Yes, some people did it before Sky, but Sky held long training camps for riders at altitude to increase performance. Now most teams do it if they want to compete.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Sure it's the same story. But the facts are different now.

Which ones. The sudden jump in speed also is a fact.

True the biological passport for sure changes the landscape, and has had an effect for a while, but neither can we be optimistic that it is really enforced (thanks to Kreuziger), nor can we be overly optimistic that it cannot be circumvented anyway. I mean you could also argue, and if memory serves my right it has been done, that the biological passport basically gives you a corridor in which you know you won't make any noise in the system.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Better training methods, equipment, nutrition, sleep, etc. Sky had so much success early on because they invested an enormous amount of money in these areas. But now other teams like Jumbo have also made similar investments, and they are equal or superior to Sky. And all of cycling is taken a step up.

By the way, I am NOT confident that the entire peloton is normal. I just know that the big names in the sport have tremendous scrutiny of the biological passports. Cheating would be very difficult for them. We'll know if it happens.

Thank you for the troll, it was nice while it lasted.

Let's just meet up upstairs in the live racing threads again, and enjoy the race!

 

[RobertCrawley]

Thank you for the troll, it was nice while it lasted.

Let's just meet up upstairs in the live racing threads again, and enjoy the race!

You are welcome for the excellent information. See you upstairs.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Which ones. The sudden jump in speed also is a fact.

True the biological passport for sure changes the landscape, and has had an effect for a while, but neither can we be optimistic that it is really enforced (thanks to Kreuziger), nor can we be overly optimistic that it cannot be circumvented anyway. I mean you could also argue, and if memory serves my right it has been done, that the biological passport basically gives you a corridor in which you know you won't make any noise in the system.

I can imagine that micro-dosing might fit what you are describing. It would be a tremendous risk for questionable gains.

 

[ManicJack]

Thank you for the troll, it was nice while it lasted.

Let's just meet up upstairs in the live racing threads again, and enjoy the race!

Seriously, what do you provide to the conversations other than captain obvious statements?

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Seriously, what do you provide to the conversations other than captain obvious statements?

Nothing

 

[Rico044]

I can imagine that micro-dosing might fit what you are describing. It would be a tremendous risk for questionable gains.

But it isn't tremendous risk. I think you put way to much faith in the bio-passport. It hasn't stopped doping, it just makes riders have to dope smarter. I'll give you some examples: operation Aderlass- first off, we don't have nearly all the athletes involved, but the athletes that did get caught were doing blood transfusions while in the bio-passport system. None of them were flagged by the bio-passport. There have been studies that micro-dosed test subjects to a non-trivial amount and the algorithm didn't flag. Aderlass also brought to light a method where riders are re-infusing blood right before a race (after any pre-race doping control) and then taking the blood back out afterwards.

Not to even mention all of the things out there that isn't monitored by the passport. Synthetic hemoglobin and substances that *** with mitochondria.

 

[Cookster15]

But it isn't tremendous risk. I think you put way to much faith in the bio-passport. It hasn't stopped doping, it just makes riders have to dope smarter. I'll give you some examples: operation Aderlass- first off, we don't have nearly all the athletes involved, but the athletes that did get caught were doing blood transfusions while in the bio-passport system. None of them were flagged by the bio-passport. There have been studies that micro-dosed test subjects to a non-trivial amount and the algorithm didn't flag. Aderlass also brought to light a method where riders are re-infusing blood right before a race (after any pre-race doping control) and then taking the blood back out afterwards.

Not to even mention all of the things out there that isn't monitored by the passport. Synthetic hemoglobin and substances that *** with mitochondria.

Thanks for this. Someone mentioned to me here this week that the passport thresholds are set to avoid long drawn out legal challenges. That still leaves plenty of room to play and not get caught.

But not sure you are right to assume synthetic haemoglobin can’t be caught by the passport? The passport doesn’t care if it’s synthetic or natural. It would still distort the baseline hb level meaning riders risk an adverse finding.

However, I agree gene therapy and mitochondria manipulation are open issues. Certainly I have a lot of trouble believing that Vingegaard is simply a physiological freak of nature.

 

[Poggio4ever]

Which ones. The sudden jump in speed also is a fact.

True the biological passport for sure changes the landscape, and has had an effect for a while, but neither can we be optimistic that it is really enforced (thanks to Kreuziger), nor can we be overly optimistic that it cannot be circumvented anyway. I mean you could also argue, and if memory serves my right it has been done, that the biological passport basically gives you a corridor in which you know you won't make any noise in the system.

Do we know what actually caused the UCI and WADA to drop the Kreuziger case? I wasn't following as closely when that was happening

 

[ManicJack]

But not sure you are right to assume synthetic haemoglobin can’t be caught by the passport? The passport doesn’t care if it’s synthetic or natural. It would still distort the baseline hb level meaning riders risk an adverse finding.

.

Hard to believe that we're back to this again. Crazy! Is his dog named Tugboat?

 

[RobertCrawley]

But it isn't tremendous risk. I think you put way to much faith in the bio-passport. It hasn't stopped doping, it just makes riders have to dope smarter. I'll give you some examples: operation Aderlass- first off, we don't have nearly all the athletes involved, but the athletes that did get caught were doing blood transfusions while in the bio-passport system. None of them were flagged by the bio-passport. There have been studies that micro-dosed test subjects to a non-trivial amount and the algorithm didn't flag. Aderlass also brought to light a method where riders are re-infusing blood right before a race (after any pre-race doping control) and then taking the blood back out afterwards.

Not to even mention all of the things out there that isn't monitored by the passport. Synthetic hemoglobin and substances that *** with mitochondria.

I'm sure we are looking at the same article:

Biological Passport: Have dopers found ways to beat it?

Procycling investigates the cracks that have appeared in the tool credited with cleaning up cycling

www.cyclingnews.com

Biological passports haven't stopped doping completely, but they are incredibly effective in finding doping signatures and deterring people from trying to cheat for fear of losing their livelihoods. As the article states, researchers with the Adlerlass study used athletes' personal narratives to describe undetected cheating using the old out-of-competition blood bag method. These are from Lundby's studies in 2008 - 2012. And the biological passport system has improved as well. I'd read somewhere that we'll know if athletes have had *any* blood transfusions.

You say biological passports haven't stopped doping. I've stipulated that in several posts already. But what I'm saying is that the tests and biological passports of high-profile athletes are highly effective because they under constant and intense scrutiny.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Hard to believe that we're back to this again. Crazy! Is his dog named Tugboat?

Don't you ever bring the name of Tugboat into this one, Lance!

 

[FearItself]

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[FearItself]

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