Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[meat puppet]

wrong, only the fisherman is doing this kind of numbers, Pog was way below 7

Just a friendly reminder that the climb power estimations try to track what is called the power-duration curve. Vingo's 13,5min TT exploit is the cream of the crap, for sure, but you may want to consult the duo's performances on Tourmalet, Joux Plane and Puy de Dome, too. Posters have been kind enough to provide links in this very thread. They are all rather fast.

Also, on long climbs 6w/kg or below would be a better benchmark than 7w/kg. You'll find that it has been exceeded frequently.

 

[topt]

Just a friendly reminder that the climb power estimations try to track what is called the power-duration curve. Vingo's 13,5min TT exploit is the cream of the crap, for sure, but you may want to consult the duo's performances on Tourmalet, Joux Plane and Puy de Dome, too. Posters have been kind enough to provide links in this very thread. They are all rather fast.

Also, on long climbs 6w/kg or below would be a better benchmark than 7w/kg. You'll find that it has been exceeded frequently.

yes, I know; for me the absolute line is 7W/kg for 20min, Pog has never done those kind of numbers, Jonas would pass this in TT on a TT bike which makes it even more stupid.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

I have seen Vingegaard a couple of times now in Danish media responding to the doping question. His replies are all built around the same basic pattern:

1. I am really happy this question is being asked
2. Because we all know what happened in cycling's past
3. But fortunately, that past is now 20 years ago
4. So cycling is now in a completely different place
5. And so obviously, I'm not taking anything

It's an interesting response because it implies that asking about doping is only natural, and that actually it's a good thing to do. This is exactly the opposite of what Wout Van Aert said last year after one of the team's dominant performances when he called the doping question 'such a *** question' - an unfair question, a nonsense question.

It's incredible that doping just stopped 10-15 years ago. All the top rider were taking CERA , transfusions, HGH, testosteron and whatever they could get their hands on.

And then they all just decided to stop , so that we could enjoy clean sport as fans. It's nice that humanity prevailed.

And after all the dopped riders, we get the clean champions who emerged from 2011, clean froome, clean nibali, clean hesjedal and purito, clean Wiggins, clean aru and landa, Dumolin, roglic, Gerant Thomas, pogacar, vinegaard, valverde, simon Yates . All good guys that never took anything. And they just get faster and faster as the clean training methods and nutrition practices, the aerodynamics and the disc brakes get more advanced.

People doing professional cycling before 2010 were all bad and dirty guys but then suddenly the top riders are nice and friendly clean riders. I'm grateful for that.

 

[Didinho]

I’ve always been shy and a bit introvert. So I just got to believe in myself and control my nerves to get Pro? Why has no one ever told me this before.

 

[Rackham]

Just a friendly reminder that the climb power estimations try to track what is called the power-duration curve. Vingo's 13,5min TT exploit is the cream of the crap, for sure, but you may want to consult the duo's performances on Tourmalet, Joux Plane and Puy de Dome, too. Posters have been kind enough to provide links in this very thread. They are all rather fast.

Also, on long climbs 6w/kg or below would be a better benchmark than 7w/kg. You'll find that it has been exceeded frequently.

I believe the ITT is the red line for many, myself included. The very fact both Pog & Vinge were so close everywhere, i.e. already way, way above the rest, was obviously suspect as hell. No question. Pog & UAE have got what they've got in terms of program & have been doing it for however long they've been dominant in the pro peloton. LPDBF was the first massive D-Day moment for him. Those numbers were insane.

But here's the deal: Vingegaard & Jumbo just went a step further & made Pog look like a plebeian. Not everything is equal & I'm sorry to say this but Pog cannot do what Vingegaard did in that ITT. We know this because the numbers & gaps Vinge achieved are unseen in over 60 years. And it's all made worse by the fact both riders were so close for two weeks & Pog in his own little world smashed Wout van Aert & the rest in similar (in fact greater) proportions than he did in the infamous LPDBF 2020 ITT.

But Vingegaard went & did something else entirely & took his sickly looking frail carcass to levels of speed I've never ever seen in my time watching this sport. I doubt anyone else here has seen something like that either (or is old enough to remember). I see quite a bit of damage control with a scattergun approach (i.e. many invoke Pog's bad preparation & Loze collapse as evidence he wasn't well on Tuesday & the gap wasn't representative of his normal level) but I add a huge caveat to those assumptions, i.e. there's no universe in which Tadej Pogačar was expected to put nearly 3 minutes into Wout van Aert in that stage 16 ITT.

Not a single commentator, podcaster, youtuber, influencer or casual viewer expected such gaps. It was grotesque & no amount of whataboutism with regards to Pog's doping can deflect from what Vingegaard did.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

most likely doped based on his family history and being a footballer

His family history of his father refusing to take part in doping? So being a 16 year old footballer means doping? Okaaaay

 

[Red Rick]

I believe the ITT is the red line for many, myself included. The very fact both Pog & Vinge were so close everywhere, i.e. already way, way above the rest, was obviously suspect as hell. No question. Pog & UAE have got what they've got in terms of program & have been doing it for however long they've been dominant in the pro peloton. LPDBF was the first massive D-Day moment for him. Those numbers were insane.

But here's the deal: Vingegaard & Jumbo just went a step further & made Pog look like a plebeian. Not everything is equal & I'm sorry to say this but Pog cannot do what Vingegaard did in that ITT. We know this because the numbers & gaps Vinge achieved are unseen in over 60 years. And it's all made worse by the fact both riders were so close for two weeks & Pog in his own little world smashed Wout van Aert & the rest in similar (in fact greater) proportions than he did in the infamous LPDBF 2020 ITT.

But Vingegaard went & did something else entirely & took his sickly looking frail carcass to levels of speed I've never ever seen in my time watching this sport. I doubt anyone else here has seen something like that either (or is old enough to remember). I see quite a bit of damage control with a scattergun approach (i.e. many invoke Pog's bad preparation & Loze collapse as evidence he wasn't well on Tuesday & the gap wasn't representative of his normal level) but I add a huge caveat to those assumptions, i.e. there's no universe in which Tadej Pogačar was expected to put nearly 3 minutes into Wout van Aert in that stage 16 ITT.

Not a single commentator, podcaster, youtuber, influencer or casual viewer expected such gaps. It was grotesque & no amount of whataboutism with regards to Pog's doping can deflect from what Vingegaard did.

Red line is my guy getting beaten. All the ridiculous *** he did the entire year was completely onside.

There's 2 uber mutants riding around, one of which has a bad preperation, but it's the difference between the two that pisses people off?

 

[Ripper]

hey, perhaps him being carismatic is also carfully curated.... stick to performance if you know dont know *** about riders

I'm not exactly sure what your point is?

 

[SigurdJ]

I suspect it might be engine use here and there and that's why some data points don't make sense.

 

[Rackham]

Red line is my guy getting beaten. All the ridiculous *** he did the entire year was completely onside.

There's 2 uber mutants riding around, one of which has a bad preperation, but it's the difference between the two that pisses people off?

Of course, Rick.

As a piece of entertainment with certain rules of engagement (namely relating to managing the extreme difficulties of the sport), cycling depends on believable performances, even those which are artificially fuelled.

Everyone was laughing their ass off 3 years ago after La Planche. I wasn't (as a Rog fan). I was gutted. It was impossible. So what do you expect me to say or think when I see Vingegaard make Pog's level look pathetic?

Is this just 'normal ridiculous mutant stuff' or something we've never seen before?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1681562731890057218

View: https://twitter.com/BriSmithy/status/1681562731890057218


To me it's an obvious escalation which is evidence that Jumbo learned all the wrong lessons after 2020 & are just as bad as Gianetti - in fact worse, in my book.

 

[Vudy]

It's incredible that doping just stopped 10-15 years ago. All the top rider were taking CERA , transfusions, HGH, testosteron and whatever they could get their hands on.

And then they all just decided to stop , so that we could enjoy clean sport as fans. It's nice that humanity prevailed.

And after all the dopped riders, we get the clean champions who emerged from 2011, clean froome, clean nibali, clean hesjedal and purito, clean Wiggins, clean aru and landa, Dumolin, roglic, Gerant Thomas, pogacar, vinegaard, valverde, simon Yates . All good guys that never took anything. And they just get faster and faster as the clean training methods and nutrition practices, the aerodynamics and the disc brakes get more advanced.

People doing professional cycling before 2010 were all bad and dirty guys but then suddenly the top riders are nice and friendly clean riders. I'm grateful for that.

Last Tour was called the cleanest ever...

 

[Vudy]

I believe the ITT is the red line for many, myself included. The very fact both Pog & Vinge were so close everywhere, i.e. already way, way above the rest, was obviously suspect as hell. No question. Pog & UAE have got what they've got in terms of program & have been doing it for however long they've been dominant in the pro peloton. LPDBF was the first massive D-Day moment for him. Those numbers were insane.

But here's the deal: Vingegaard & Jumbo just went a step further & made Pog look like a plebeian. Not everything is equal & I'm sorry to say this but Pog cannot do what Vingegaard did in that ITT. We know this because the numbers & gaps Vinge achieved are unseen in over 60 years. And it's all made worse by the fact both riders were so close for two weeks & Pog in his own little world smashed Wout van Aert & the rest in similar (in fact greater) proportions than he did in the infamous LPDBF 2020 ITT.

But Vingegaard went & did something else entirely & took his sickly looking frail carcass to levels of speed I've never ever seen in my time watching this sport. I doubt anyone else here has seen something like that either (or is old enough to remember). I see quite a bit of damage control with a scattergun approach (i.e. many invoke Pog's bad preparation & Loze collapse as evidence he wasn't well on Tuesday & the gap wasn't representative of his normal level) but I add a huge caveat to those assumptions, i.e. there's no universe in which Tadej Pogačar was expected to put nearly 3 minutes into Wout van Aert in that stage 16 ITT.

Not a single commentator, podcaster, youtuber, influencer or casual viewer expected such gaps. It was grotesque & no amount of whataboutism with regards to Pog's doping can deflect from what Vingegaard did.

Great post. Exactly my problem. I expected up to 30 seconds, maybe on a unreal day for either of them and then he smashes everybody to pieces. I wouldn't be typing this last year but this TT was just... If it were 50km he would put even more minutes into everybody. And then I hear something about precision cornering. Ok. He would have destroyed Ganna on a flat TT and he weighs less than 60kg.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

Except that in the 90s they were also quite a few kgs heavier.

You are aware that performances in all sports have improved over the last 30 years and specifically in cycling some teams have made huge steps compared to how they approaced the sport 15-30 years ago? I mean cycling was (and is) a very backward sport.

This literally is the worst argument for being clean. Across all sports as time goes on the difference between the top and bottom athletes closes. Hell you had TDF riders who were smokers even in the 1980s.

So when a guy beats the field by 7.6 secs/k in 2023 it looks a whole hell of a lot worse now than in the 1960s.

 

[topt]

I'm not exactly sure what your point is?

you claiming his image has been curated it total BS, Pog is acting exactly the same in private as he is in front of camera

 

[Salvarani]

Of course, Rick.

As a piece of entertainment with certain rules of engagement (namely relating to managing the extreme difficulties of the sport), cycling depends on believable performances, even those which are artificially fuelled.

Everyone was laughing their ass off 3 years ago after La Planche. I wasn't (as a Rog fan). I was gutted. It was impossible. So what do you expect me to say or think when I see Vingegaard make Pog's level look pathetic?

Is this just 'normal ridiculous mutant stuff' or something we've never seen before?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1681562731890057218

View: https://twitter.com/BriSmithy/status/1681562731890057218


To me it's an obvious escalation which is evidence that Jumbo learned all the wrong lessons after 2020 & are just as bad as Gianetti - in fact worse, in my book.

That image is so telling.

 

[topt]

His family history of his father refusing to take part in doping? So being a 16 year old footballer means doping? Okaaaay

did he tell you that ? i guess he is the only clean wallonie winner in the 90s

 

[topt]

Red line is my guy getting beaten. All the ridiculous *** he did the entire year was completely onside.

There's 2 uber mutants riding around, one of which has a bad preperation, but it's the difference between the two that pisses people off?

this is just BS, once again, Pog has NEVER done the numbers Jonas has in TT. There is no way Pog can beat Jonas with any kind of preperation

 

[Red Rick]

this is just BS, once again, Pog has NEVER done the numbers Jonas has in TT. There is no way Pog can beat Jonas with any kind of preperation

Are we still talking about the 7.5 claims where a conventional formula gives 6.8?

 

[Salvarani]

Are we still talking about the 7.5 claims where a conventional formula gives 6.8?

How can you even try to defend that performance, absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Salvarani]

this is just BS, once again, Pog has NEVER done the numbers Jonas has in TT. There is no way Pog can beat Jonas with any kind of preperation

He can never beat this version of Jonas. Pog cant be better than what he showed in that TT, that is his absolute limit. Considering... he is also on some stuff.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Pog cant be better than what he showed in that TT, that is his absolute limit.

I doubt that, but he can‘t do what Vingegaard did. But also, 6.8??? Did everybody else have their worst days ever on a bike all at once to lose that much time?

 

[Salvarani]

I doubt that, but he can‘t do what Vingegaard did. But also, 6.8??? Did everybody else have their worst days ever on a bike all at once to lose that much time?

He wins every other race with what he produced there. Not this one though. He was so far behind Vinge here. Vinge is the one who looked like he could go even faster. I dont see it happening.

Pog has done roughly the same numbers a few times here in Tour, other races as well, and he seems to max out at around 6,7-7.

Vinge did a lot more than that.

 

[46&twoWheels]

He wins every other race with what he produced there. Not this one though. He was so far behind Vinge here. Vinge is the one who looked like he could go even faster. I dont see it happening.

Pog has done roughly the same numbers a few times here in Tour, other races as well, and he seems to max out at around 6,7-7.

Vinge did a lot more than that.

yes. I was wondering whether this "depressed" Pogacar would have been enough to beat Roglic in the Monte Lussari ITT stage in this year's Giro, given his excellent Tour numbers. Probably.....

sorry for the Off-topic

 

[Ripper]

you claiming his image has been curated it total BS, Pog is acting exactly the same in private as he is in front of camera

So you are buddies with him and you are intimately aware of how he acts off a camera? You are the mighty defender of the ToddyPog.

UAE does not manage how their riders act in front of the camera? Right ...

Anywho, I would not argue that Jizma are believable (nor UAE). I guess different spin machines have a different impact on different fans.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

So you are buddies with him and you are intimately aware of how he acts off a camera? You are the mighty defender of the ToddyPog.

UAE does not manage how their riders act in front of the camera? Right ...

Anywho, I would not argue that Jizma are believable (nor UAE). I guess different spin machines have a different impact on different fans.

Sure there will be media briefings, but you are basically suggesting acting, and on a high level.

I think to act as if you are happy go lucky, as a random person not an actor, is one of the hardest things to do.