Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[Kwibus]

So you are trying to guilt trip me? Just stop.

You are being naive and ridiculous. Your only goal seems to be is to derail this thread. We are having none of it.

So I'm trying to derail this thread? This is craziest stuff I've read on this forum since 2010 and I've seen a lot of crazy stuff. I've only come here and give my opinion.
If I understand you correctly it's not ok in the Clinic to give an opinion that does not support the idea that everyone is using doping.

EDIT: This was a reply to Salvarini, not to hrotha. Earlier today I started a reply to hrotha, but work interrupted Not sure how it now shows hrotha in here instead of salvarini.

 

[Red Rick]

you having a pro jumbo agenda..... that would be quite shocking for must of us here

So we have a calculation where the input isn't given, and just repeating ad nauseam that I have the agenda?

Very convincing.

But for real, find one single post of mine saying Jumbo are clean.

 

[Kwibus]

There is absolutely no point in talking to you.

I don't want to make it personal, but it's really hard with you. I'm seriously just asking a question. Why are you so upset about my opinion. Your reactions so far has been rather amazing.

 

[Kwibus]

I've heard the same from both DVB and Rohan Dennis, yet both have fairly sharply regressed since they left Ineos

In fact I can only really think of Laporte who is better now than he was at his old team (Cofidis)

How did DVB regress besides crashing out and suffering with injuries during spring?

 

[Salvarani]

I don't want to make it personal, but it's really hard with you. I'm seriously just asking a question. Why are you so upset about my opinion. Your reactions so far has been rather amazing.

I am just laughing. Cool story.

 

[hrotha]

So I'm trying to derail this thread? This is craziest stuff I've read on this forum since 2010 and I've seen a lot of crazy stuff. I've only come here and give my opinion.
If I understand you correctly it's not ok in the Clinic to give an opinion that does not support the idea that everyone is using doping.

Just a headsup, you quoted the wrong post here. I didn't write what you're replying to

I would never insult you until like page 90 or so

 

[Kwibus]

Exactly.

Seeing Vingegaard respond to these questions reminds me a lot of Froome back in the day, except there hasn't been any TUE/Geert Leinders situation at JumboVisma (yet)

Is there any answer he can give that would take away your doubt? It doesn't matter how they answer these questions. IT's never right unless the riders says "Yes ofcourse I use doping".

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Thanks for opening our eyes and reminding me, Rick, what it is all about.
A wise man once said:
‚I think you have this all wrong.

You are the one who is blind and connot see the truth in the world. You live sheltered in a monastry of your hate, and cannot admire beauty and truth while I snort the cocaine of excellence and bang the hooker of awesomeness.‘

And really, snorting the baking soda of excellence feels better than living in our monastery of hate, but is it better or more truthful? We know the context of the quote.

Edit: I just really wanted to mention this, I know you know they‘re doping.

 

[Kwibus]

Just a headsup, you quoted the wrong post here. I didn't write what you're replying to

I would never insult you until like page 90 or so

Sorry, but it was a reply to Salvarini and not to you. This afternoon I started an reply to your post, but I was at work and I work actually urged me to work so I was interrupted. Not sure how it happened that your name was above the quote now.

 

[Kwibus]

I am just laughing. Cool story.

..... wow

 

[Kwibus]

just wondering, how much faster than the rest would he have to be for you to start doubting ? 5min ,10 ?

Did I say I don't doubt him? Ofcourse I have my doubts, but I just give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Kwibus]

Jumbo Visma's odd doping clause

Jumbo-Visma's odd doping clause

If the team got suspended for positives, sponsors could still be on the hook for money.

escapecollective.com

Did you read the whole article?
When asked about this Jumbo gave them all the information they asked for. There are different agreements with different sponsors.
So there are sponsors that don't accept 1 positive, there are sponsors that don't accept more than 1... more than 2 and there is also a deal that goes as far as 3 positives. They don't hide this, they share what has been agreed on. So far every journalist that askes them questions gets answers and insight in their records.
Ofcourse this doesn't mean that they use doping yes or no, but all it does show is that it doesn't matter anything when you try to be open and honest, because nobody believes you anyway and you actually get the loop on you.

When they asked UAE they refuse to reply and this is not mentioned by the poster of the URL. So it's better to refuse any form of coorperation apparently

 

[Kwibus]

Jumbo is starting to lose the plot - https://www.ouest-france.fr/tour-de...t-madiot-229ad792-27f3-11ee-a0ad-0eea9464400c

Insane.

I hope there is someone out there building a dossier of these things. They are just telling on themselves on with these sort of stuff.

I am saying it aint too complicated. It aint no "secret sauce". It aint no fairytale lab. Just the same old blood doping. Most effective still by the look of things.

These guys are just well-organized. Well-structured. Still human though by being dumb/stupid, as humans usually are.

You really are the best investigator I've seen in my life

 

[Tim Cahill]

How did DVB regress besides crashing out and suffering with injuries during spring?

Had some bad luck certainly, and has rode very well in opening weekend and the nationals after coming down from altitude, but off the pace and not in the move in Roubaix when he crashed. Been a serviceable domestique for Vingeggard but made no breaks in The Tour whilst his teammates have, despite showing some activity in trying to get in earlier moves.

He was a world beater last year, one of the best riders in the world, perhaps he still is, but his palmares and performances haven't matched the 2 years he had prior.

PCS Ranking position per season​

	POINTS	POSITION
2023	245	160
2022	758	54
2021	845	40
2020	373	89

Off topic but Froome was doing the 'not eating salad because it stays in the gut and adds weight' thing years ago, Thomas mentioned it last week.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Is there any answer he can give that would take away your doubt? It doesn't matter how they answer these questions. IT's never right unless the riders says "Yes ofcourse I use doping".

Probably not. My main point was that he - along with many others - consistently talks about doping as 'something that happened 20 years ago'. Which, as far as I can tell from the few established facts we have about doping from the Sky era until now is a rather misleading way to frame it.

And I find it interesting that Jumbo's two biggest TdF stars have such different ways of tackling that question.

 

[Kwibus]

Had some bad luck certainly, and has rode very well in opening weekend and the nationals after coming down from altitude, but off the pace and not in the move in Roubaix when he crashed. Been a serviceable domestique for Vingeggard but made no breaks in The Tour whilst his teammates have, despite showing some activity in trying to get in earlier moves.

He was a world beater last year, one of the best riders in the world, perhaps he still is, but his palmares and performances haven't matched the 2 years he had prior.

PCS Ranking position per season​

	POINTS	POSITION
2023	245	160
2022	758	54
2021	845	40
2020	373	89

Off topic but Froome was doing the 'not eating salad because it stays in the gut and adds weight' thing years ago, Thomas mentioned it last week.

Not riding Flanders and crashing out of Roubaix certainly hurts your points. I don't really see a difference in performance with the last 2 years tbh. TdF performance was like his last 2 years at INEOS. Before those years he climbed better, but he switched focus to being a classic rider again from 2020 to 2021.

Anyways it doesn't really matter. To me he still seems to be a really strong classics rider that doesn't have the explosiveness, but can keep on riding hard until the bitter end. Don't let him ride away....

Normally a rider shouldn't progress a lot when switching teams between INEOS and Jumbo. Nonetheless van Baarle did say that nutrition at Jumbo was a step ahead of INEOS. I guess all we can do is believe him or not.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Did you read the whole article?
When asked about this Jumbo gave them all the information they asked for. There are different agreements with different sponsors.
So there are sponsors that don't accept 1 positive, there are sponsors that don't accept more than 1... more than 2 and there is also a deal that goes as far as 3 positives. They don't hide this, they share what has been agreed on. So far every journalist that askes them questions gets answers and insight in their records.
Ofcourse this doesn't mean that they use doping yes or no, but all it does show is that it doesn't matter anything when you try to be open and honest, because nobody believes you anyway and you actually get the loop on you.

When they asked UAE they refuse to reply and this is not mentioned by the poster of the URL. So it's better to refuse any form of coorperation apparently

Even crazier it’s 3 cases per year. So they could have two positives now and two next year in September and be fine.

 

[Kwibus]

Probably not. My main point was that he - along with many others - consistently talks about doping as 'something that happened 20 years ago'. Which, as far as I can tell from the few established facts we have about doping from the Sky era until now is a rather misleading way to frame it.

And I find it interesting that Jumbo's two biggest TdF stars have such different ways of tackling that question.

I guess different people different answers? Imagine if they were clean how would you answer those questions?
I'm on the wrong forum to ask this question though

 

[Kwibus]

Even crazier it’s 3 cases per year. So they could have two positives now and two next year in September and be fine.

And all you reply on is that 1 deal insteaf of the entire other part of my post. That was exactly my point.

 

[SHAD0W93]

And all you reply on is that 1 deal insteaf of the entire other part of my post. That was exactly my point.

No, I was extrapolating your post with a detail you didn’t mention.

 

[Ripper]

It really comes down to what people find more offensive, i.e. the team who doped a 20 year old to win the Tour de France in the final ITT in 2020 (without any decent teammates of his own, for what it's worth, i.e. he rode on Jumbo's coattails for 3 weeks), or the team who got beaten in that Tour who decided they needed their own super doper & miraculously produced a 25 year old from their in-house conveyor belt & he went even faster than the aforementioned 20 year old doper who beat them previously.

I mean it's like "sh*t, we were robbed... okay then, let's organize an even bigger heist, that'll teach the b*stards!".

Meanwhile, the Tour gets totally trampled upon.

That is very true, it is very much a personal thing about what we find most offensive

It really comes down to what people find more offensive, i.e. the team who doped a 20 year old to win the Tour de France in the final ITT in 2020 (without any decent teammates of his own, for what it's worth, i.e. he rode on Jumbo's coattails for 3 weeks), or the team who got beaten in that Tour who decided they needed their own super doper & miraculously produced a 25 year old from their in-house conveyor belt & he went even faster than the aforementioned 20 year old doper who beat them previously.

I mean it's like "sh*t, we were robbed... okay then, let's organize an even bigger heist, that'll teach the b*stards!".

Meanwhile, the Tour gets totally trampled upon.

That is very true, it is very much a personal thing about what we find most offensive. I guess I find Jizma a bit less offensive than UAE. Not because of the way their spin machine works (which is hilarious), but because UAE has a couple of the most notorious fellows from the sports doping history. But again, we're talking about a nuanced thing, Jizma is hardly spotless.

 

[ElDesordenado]

I guess different people different answers? Imagine if they were clean how would you answer those questions?
I'm on the wrong forum to ask this question though

Fair enough. What do you think about Vingegaard's statement that doping in cycling is a thing of the past?

 

[Kwibus]

No, I was extrapolating your post with a detail you didn’t mention.

Ok, what about the rest of my post because this is still exactly what I was referring to. Putting the highlight on 1 part while completely ignoring the complete story.

 

[ontheroad]

Not riding Flanders and crashing out of Roubaix certainly hurts your points. I don't really see a difference in performance with the last 2 years tbh. TdF performance was like his last 2 years at INEOS. Before those years he climbed better, but he switched focus to being a classic rider again from 2020 to 2021.

Anyways it doesn't really matter. To me he still seems to be a really strong classics rider that doesn't have the explosiveness, but can keep on riding hard until the bitter end. Don't let him ride away....

Normally a rider shouldn't progress a lot when switching teams between INEOS and Jumbo. Nonetheless van Baarle did say that nutrition at Jumbo was a step ahead of INEOS. I guess all we can do is believe him or not.

The same nonsense spouted by the same Sky team 10 years ago to justify Froome! It’s a copy and paste strategy.

Tour de France 2013: Team Sky fuelled to perfection by top dietician

Nigel Mitchell controls every morsel of food and drop of liquid that Chris Froome and his Sky team-mates consume

amp.theguardian.com

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Good on Madiot to strike back, what a *** Plugge is. They're definitely getting more exasperated, German TV interviewed Niermann after Loze and he was definitely not too happy getting asked where these big differences are coming from. Funny enough, Vingegaard seems to stay the coolest so far.