Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[Rechtschreibfehler]

well it will be worth watching just to see how the media try to explain the performances away, he wouldnt be going just to carry bottles and they can only use the once in a lifetime ITT performance line the one time.

Read an article in Die Zeit (German weekly magazine/online Newspaper) that basically said: well it's all the training and nutrition, doping was 20 years ago and the tests are all negative.

I also just read an interview Der Spiegel did with the guys who calculate the watts for laternrouge.com , they asked how this is not suspicious given that according to their calculations Pogacar and Vingegaard outperform Lance. The answer was: nutrition, training, aerodynamics. Same old same old.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I'm sure he will feature prominently but he could also be having a normal one and "just" finish high in GC.
Maybe a bit premature to pre-emptively stone him for more stratospheric performances he hasn't made yet. 😅

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I'm sure he will feature prominently but he could also be having a normal one and "just" finish high in GC.
Maybe a bit premature to pre-emptively stone him for more stratospheric performances he hasn't made yet. 😅

He said they have decided he'd ride the Vuelta back in December. I kind of doubt they did this without planing that he'd be in pretty good shape to do it.

 

[awavey]

Read an article in Die Zeit (German weekly magazine/online Newspaper) that basically said: well it's all the training and nutrition, doping was 20 years ago and the tests are all negative.

I also just read an interview Der Spiegel did with the guys who calculate the watts for laternrouge.com , they asked how this is not suspicious given that according to their calculations Pogacar and Vingegaard outperform Lance. The answer was: nutrition, training, aerodynamics. Same old same old.

I thought it was interesting Sagans view of todays stage was thats the hardest the Champs has been ridden in his whole career (and tbf it looked it too) and that he was just tired, I guess the aero,training and nutrition stuff doesnt work for the older guys.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I thought it was interesting Sagans view of todays stage was thats the hardest the Champs has been ridden in his whole career (and tbf it looked it too) and that he was just tired, I guess the aero,training and nutrition stuff doesnt work for the older guys.

Yeah, yet he might just be old. For Thomas who did the best watts of his career at the Giro they seem to work just fine.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

Oh for sure I believe he's going there to compete and not for leisure. Even with prep, however, he could be fatigued of riding two GT in succession... perhaps.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

Wasn't there a streak of uncharitable gossip about Sagan drinking habits as of late ? Not to go all Jumbo-Visma pompous but I'd imagine less than perfect fitness will hit hard and fast. And he sounds like his head is not in the road game anymore, really.

 

[lenric]

Oh for sure I believe he's going there to compete and not for leisure. Even with prep, however, he could be fatigued of riding two GT in succession... perhaps.

agreed, I'm sure he'll be tired, so instead of pulling 7.5 w/kg it will be 7.0 w/kg obliterating the only enhanced humans.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Pretty cool that the Netflix documentary on the 2023 Tour de France will be rolled over into the Marvel Universe as an X-Men origin story called Dawn of the Mutants. Exciting stuff.

 

[Savant12]

Vingo is going to be the Froome to Roglic’s Wiggins. He’ll be waiting for Roglic to falter before pouncing or riding a crazy tempo on a climb and dropping Roglic.

 

[iceblink]

Yeah, yet he might just be old. For Thomas who did the best watts of his career at the Giro they seem to work just fine.

He's also a few months younger than Roglic and Roglic seems to be benefitting hugely from the Jumbo nutrition and fitness programs.

 

[Aimar16]

He's also a few months younger than Roglic and Roglic seems to be benefitting hugely from the Jumbo nutrition and fitness programs.

Tbf, Sagan has done a lot more years in the WT than Roglic and he has almost twice as many race days under his belt. But it looks like the Brits have found the elixir of eternal youth. Thomas in the best shape of his life at 37, with one of the highest mileages of any active rider.

Most guys are already burned out in the top 100, but not INEOS - https://www.procyclingstats.com/sta...&filter=Filter&p=start&s=most-career-racedays

Thomas, Castroviejo still going strong, Swift climbing like never before, Kwiatkowski wins stage of Grand Colombier....

 

[gregrowlerson]

Vinge could probably produce electricity and power up whole cities, just riding his bike all day long.

A bit selfish that he only settles to win the Tour. His powers are much greater.

Maybe he read this.

 

[gregrowlerson]

But if Pog focused on love… is that not what they said made Jonas so good here in the Tour? Having his wife and kid with him.

Maybe it is more the hugging type of love that they are talking about rather than the hot and sweaty stuff. I mean the latter didn't help Mr 60% much in 1997

 

[Red Rick]

Read an article in Die Zeit (German weekly magazine/online Newspaper) that basically said: well it's all the training and nutrition, doping was 20 years ago and the tests are all negative.

I also just read an interview Der Spiegel did with the guys who calculate the watts for laternrouge.com , they asked how this is not suspicious given that according to their calculations Pogacar and Vingegaard outperform Lance. The answer was: nutrition, training, aerodynamics. Same old same old.

Remember when Lanterne Rouge would at least imply doping in videos like it was normal, then he saw the bag and all those videos vanished from the face of the internet.

 

[ivanic]

Everything changed with the lockdowns and Planche is the beginning of everything
Quintana was suspected as early in february '20 but we but we know he's old school. Bags of blood and tramadol.
So what do Pogacar and Vingegaard are using? Why we are back of the '90s record and w/kg?
idk.
Gene therapy? It's a possibility but I don't think they have the possibilities to do it independently and mRNA and LNPs persist in your body and in your lymph nodes for a long time (look at the covid vaccines).
Synthetic hemoglobin? It's a possibility.
Everyone is making money and no one wants to have more scandals and probably wada is not able to find what they are using.
Riccò was a bully, Pogacar is funny and calm, and Vingegaard is calm and introverted. Here, too, they are not wrong.
Who knows where Ferrari is now, maybe he too wants to know what they're using.

 

[46&twoWheels]

Read an article in Die Zeit (German weekly magazine/online Newspaper) that basically said: well it's all the training and nutrition, doping was 20 years ago and the tests are all negative.

I also just read an interview Der Spiegel did with the guys who calculate the watts for laternrouge.com , they asked how this is not suspicious given that according to their calculations Pogacar and Vingegaard outperform Lance. The answer was: nutrition, training, aerodynamics. Same old same old.

thanks for reporting.
I think at least the guy who does calculations (and has also an account on twitter: Naichacha) is well aware that something is off based on numbers, but as Red Rick says, they have to carefullly manage their public persona now that they're employed by WT teams

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

its all water and bread guys, no worries doing 7 w/kg for 20 or 6.7 for 40 is the new normal now

 

[Red Rick]

its all water and bread guys, no worries doing 7 w/kg for 20 or 6.7 for 40 is the new normal now

I wonder how this trend will continue.

*** will get really hilarious when they actually start breaking Pantanis records.

And then people will still claim it's clean because they're naive morons who like being lied to and I may have to force myself to never watch cycling again.

 

[46&twoWheels]

Everything changed with the lockdowns and Planche is the beginning of everything
Quintana was suspected as early in february '20 but we but we know he's old school. Bags of blood and tramadol.
So what do Pogacar and Vingegaard are using? Why we are back of the '90s record and w/kg?
idk.
Gene therapy? It's a possibility but I don't think they have the possibilities to do it independently and mRNA and LNPs persist in your body and in your lymph nodes for a long time (look at the covid vaccines).
Synthetic hemoglobin? It's a possibility.
Everyone is making money and no one wants to have more scandals and probably wada is not able to find what they are using.
Riccò was a bully, Pogacar is funny and calm, and Vingegaard is calm and introverted. Here, too, they are not wrong.
Who knows where Ferrari is now, maybe he too wants to know what they're using.

Gene therapy would be the most undetectable by routine anti-doping tests (requiring instead expensive molecular screenings). I don't even know what kind of gene they would enhance given that metabolic pathways are numerous. Certainly something to do with oxygen metabolism as always in cycling. Doubts about efficacy and about a rider's willingness to undergo such a procedure though.

EPO and Blood Transfusion: both relatively low cost but too risky and outdated, so to speak

Motodoping: No idea about it but too risky.

Pharma/Drug option: I think this option is the most realistic considering the infinite amount of molecules and substances that can be experimented or repurposed from the medical pharma industry (I'm excluding EPO from this category given its history).

 

[Riek s]

Gene therapy would be the most undetectable by routine anti-doping tests (requiring instead expensive molecular screenings). I don't even know what kind of gene they would enhance given that metabolic pathways are numerous. Certainly something to do with oxygen metabolism as always in cycling. Doubts about efficacy and about a rider's willingness to undergo such a procedure though.

EPO and Blood Transfusion: both relatively low cost but too risky and outdated, so to speak

Motodoping: No idea about it but too risky.

Pharma/Drug option: I think this option is the most realistic considering the infinite amount of molecules and substances that can be experimented or repurposed from the medical pharma industry (I'm excluding EPO from this category given its history).

All the "risky" ones are determined by the wish to catch dopers. For now it seems more by accident. (and without attention being brought up by 3rd parties they wouldn't have mutted about it... )

 

[Salvarani]

EPO and Blood Transfusion: both relatively low cost but too risky and outdated, so to speak

Risky how? In 20 years they have probably become even better at it. Also not very risky to get caught doing it. No test has caught anyone. With no big bust or intel, it is business as usual. They maybe stopped for awhile but then got back to it... since it is probably the most effective way.

Maybe some advances has been found in new medicals and so on... but still Im not too sure about that. You need a lot of time to test that... and it sounds pretty risky. New medicals need years and years before going on the market or becoming available.

Considering there a lot of the same people behind the scenes I would think it is more the case of the former, than the latter.

 

[gregrowlerson]

My only question would be where was the diet last year or did they just do more research into Vinge with his DNA to find out the best nutrition l after the fact?

Whatever he is on now is probably what he was on last year. But before the 3rd week ITT he was already four minutes ahead (not ten seconds) so didn't need to go all in.

Sorry if this has been replied to similarly, like Pogacar I'm a bit behind.

 

[Rackham]

There's an article in Eurosport in which Frédéric Grappe (head of performance at FDJ) says watts per kilo cannot be used as evidence of doping (because of variables & improved equipment since the 1990's) but the delta (actual seconds per km gains & average speed versus the rest) is a problem, i.e. according to him, if one of his riders did what Vingegaard did in the ITT, he'd be "ill at ease" & would ask serious questions: https://www.eurosport.fr/cyclisme/t...-de-dopage-en-question_sto9715289/story.shtml

He says the margin of victory goes beyond the margin of error of power calculations. There's also this:

"J'ai plus que du respect pour le travail de Jumbo-Visma et aucun doute sur l'intégrité de Mathieu Heijboer (son homologue, NDLR) qui a une approche scientifique, assure-t-il. A eux de faire leur propre analyse. Ils connaissent les records de leur athlète. S'il les a battus de 10%, ils le savent. Et ce n'est pas possible de battre ses records de 10% dans un grand tour."

He has a lot of respect for Mathieu Heijboer but Jumbo need to do their own analysis of Vingegaard's performance (& whether he beat his own record by 10%) because it's just not possible to gain 10% in a Grand Tour.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I wonder how this trend will continue.

*** will get really hilarious when they actually start breaking Pantanis records.

And then people will still claim it's clean because they're naive morons who like being lied to and I may have to force myself to never watch cycling again.

The way they are going right now they are bound to break Pantanis records. What happens at that point will be interesting. But bar a successful criminal investigation I don't think this will stop any time soon. They are going to push each other to the limit of whatever they are applying.
It will also be interesting to who's gonna rise to the top all of a sudden, like Gall. Maybe the next Pantani isn't even Vingegaard. And looking at WvA performances I wonder if the heavy GT rider is gonna make a return to the scene.