Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Mountain Sprinter

[Salvarani]

He still got time. Toughen up kid and go to the Tour. No excuses. We need everyone there.

 

[Netserk]

If you can't explain it you don't understand it

Does a chimp understand what a banana is?

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Does a chimp understand what a banana is?

I wouldn‘t compare anyone on here to a chimpanzee though.

 

[proffate]

Does a chimp understand what a banana is?

no

 

[proffate]

You posted an irrelevant comparison between recovery rates of old and young then suggest I don't understand? The onus is on your position not mine.

No, I posted about recovery rates between people with high levels of anabolic hormones in their body and people with low levels. Young and old are simply illustrative examples of different classes of people who often have different (naturally occurring) levels of HGH, Testosterone, etc. in their body. Higher levels of HGH help you bounce back from injury in the same way they help you bounce back from exercise. I feel like you don't read very carefully. When you get to the end of a text you didn't understand, try slowly reading it a second time.

 

[Sciatic]

No, I posted about recovery rates between people with high levels of anabolic hormones in their body and people with low levels. Young and old are simply illustrative examples of different classes of people who often have different (naturally occurring) levels of HGH, Testosterone, etc. in their body. Higher levels of HGH help you bounce back from injury in the same way they help you bounce back from exercise. I feel like you don't read very carefully. When you get to the end of a text you didn't understand, try slowly reading it a second time.

You make it sound like everyone should think your take is obviously right, and are somehow dense to not see it. You could be right in the comparison you’re making, but intuitively what you’re saying doesn’t sound very logical. Because the comparison is between the recovery of a healthy body from exertion & muscle damage after a hard effort, vs. the recovery of injured person from their injuries. Even if, as you argue, they are the same process—validating that would have to be a lot more sophisticated. For example, a key element of recovery from many injuries or illnesses is decreasing inflammation. Not only the inflammation (swelling) is at the site of the injuries but also the inflammatory elements (cykotines) carried in the bloodstream, usually measured by testing for C-Reactive protein levels and sedimentation rate. Perhaps those levels are similarly elevated after profound exertion like in a stage race. But I think you need to show evidence for that.

 

[proffate]

You make it sound like everyone should think your take is obviously right, and are somehow dense to not see it. You could be right in the comparison you’re making, but intuitively what you’re saying doesn’t sound very logical. Because the comparison is between the recovery of a healthy body from exertion & muscle damage after a hard effort, vs. the recovery of injured person from their injuries. Even if, as you argue, they are the same process—validating that would have to be a lot more sophisticated. For example, a key element of recovery from many injuries or illnesses is decreasing inflammation. Not only the inflammation (swelling) is at the site of the injuries but also the inflammatory elements (cykotines) carried in the bloodstream, usually measured by testing for C-Reactive protein levels and sedimentation rate. Perhaps those levels are similarly elevated after profound exertion like in a stage race. But I think you need to show evidence for that.

It took me less time to Google this than it did for you to write this comment: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18806550/

I did kind of think it was common knowledge or common sense that exercise caused inflammation, also that exercise is a kind of controlled damage to the body from which the body must later recover. Inflammation is a sign that the body is doing repairs. Is this news to anyone?

I never said these are the exact same processes, but I pointed to one factor that is correlated with rate of repair from both kinds of damage. It's highly likely if you're good at one kind of recovery you will be good at the other.

 

[Sciatic]

Good article. But no I don’t think an understanding of inflammation is common knowledge—it certainly wasn’t to me until my autoimmune illness flared up.

 

[SHAD0W93]

It took me less time to Google this than it did for you to write this comment: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18806550/

I did kind of think it was common knowledge or common sense that exercise caused inflammation, also that exercise is a kind of controlled damage to the body from which the body must later recover. Inflammation is a sign that the body is doing repairs. Is this news to anyone?

I never said these are the exact same processes, but I pointed to one factor that is correlated with rate of repair from both kinds of damage. It's highly likely if you're good at one kind of recovery you will be good at the other.

There’s a difference between recovering from the inflammation the sport caused that you’re used to and your body healing from a different sport or an injury. That’s why if you do weighted lunges all the time but stop and do weighted squats, when you go back to the lunges you struggle because your body isn’t used to it. Even if you’re in great shape. His body has to heal his bones, lung(s), and then get ready to take the training abuse of a professional cyclist. It has to do way more in order to get in shape. Vingegaard’s benefit is he’s a lot healthier person than others who get these injuries and has the best backing to heal.

 

[FanBoi]

Most promising news yet from Vingegaards coach:

"Every time the messages we've got are that he's improving so fast"​

"Every day we've been keeping in touch with each other and every day it's going in the direction of maybe doing some normal training again in just a matter of time."​

"Hopefully, he'll be able to join a part of the preparation with all the other riders. We have a team going now to Sierra Nevada preparing and then that team will also go to the Criterium du Dauphine and then to Tignes."​

"Maybe it's just training all the way and there might be no race, but it will depend also on what the feedback from Jonas will be in the next two to three weeks. ​

Seems to be going well. It's interesting that Heemskerk doesn't rule out race days before the tour yet, and that he suggest he can be going to Tignes.

 

[Netserk]

"Every day we've been keeping in touch with each other and every day it's going in the direction of maybe doing some normal training again in just a matter of time."

So no "normal" training yet.

I'm quite optimistic for him to get in decent shape for the Tour and certainly to be in winning shape in time for the Vuelta, but I'm very unsure of how strong he can get in the best case scenario for the Tour.

 

[Rackham]

Most promising news yet from Vingegaards coach:

"Every time the messages we've got are that he's improving so fast"​

"Every day we've been keeping in touch with each other and every day it's going in the direction of maybe doing some normal training again in just a matter of time."​

"Hopefully, he'll be able to join a part of the preparation with all the other riders. We have a team going now to Sierra Nevada preparing and then that team will also go to the Criterium du Dauphine and then to Tignes."​

"Maybe it's just training all the way and there might be no race, but it will depend also on what the feedback from Jonas will be in the next two to three weeks. ​

Seems to be going well. It's interesting that Heemskerk doesn't rule out race days before the tour yet, and that he suggest he can be going to Tignes.

I read that interview earlier today here: https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racin...com&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social

The part I find confusing (& makes me think these quotes are old now) is the part where he says there's 8 weeks to go until the Tour:

"Maybe it's just training all the way and there might be no race,” he said. “But it will depend also on what the feedback from Jonas will be in the next two to three weeks.

"So at the moment, my thoughts are just about tomorrow and this next little training block... I think in two weeks from now we will have a really, really better view of where we are at to enable us to predict a programme.

"At the moment, I'm just thinking about the fact that we just have eight weeks for training time."

There's not. There's just over 6 weeks now (44 days).

 

[Red Rick]

44 days and still not training normally.

Clearly improving so fast only emphasizes how bad it was before

 

[Peyroteo94]

I can see a similar scenario to Remco in 2021 Giro.

 

[Red Rick]

I can see a similar scenario to Remco in 2021 Giro.

I don't know how long Evenepoel was back training then, but I think it was longer than Vingegaard.

Basically it sounds like at best he can do a single block of training at intensity before the TdF.

 

[Froome]

Most promising news yet from Vingegaards coach:

"Every time the messages we've got are that he's improving so fast"​

"Every day we've been keeping in touch with each other and every day it's going in the direction of maybe doing some normal training again in just a matter of time."​

"Hopefully, he'll be able to join a part of the preparation with all the other riders. We have a team going now to Sierra Nevada preparing and then that team will also go to the Criterium du Dauphine and then to Tignes."​

"Maybe it's just training all the way and there might be no race, but it will depend also on what the feedback from Jonas will be in the next two to three weeks. ​

Seems to be going well. It's interesting that Heemskerk doesn't rule out race days before the tour yet, and that he suggest he can be going to Tignes.

Probably he will go to Switzerland very soon and then Tignes.

I don't know how long Evenepoel was back training then, but I think it was longer than Vingegaard.

Basically it sounds like at best he can do a single block of training at intensity before the TdF.

The second block of training at intensity will be the first 2 weeks of the Tour.

Maybe he will start the Tour, in the same shape he started the Vuelta 2023.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Probably he will go to Switzerland very soon and then Tignes.

The second block of training at intensity will be the first 2 weeks of the Tour.

Maybe he will start the Tour, in the same shape he started the Vuelta 2023.

How much time does he lose getting the hard miles in on climbs like San Luca or Galibier?

 

[Red Rick]

How much time does he lose getting the hard miles in on climbs like San Luca or Galibier?

Enough to be out of contention for the win.

Every indication is basically he's expected to have less quality training than when he lines up to friggin Gran Camino in February

 

[Peyroteo94]

Enough to be out of contention for the win.

Every indication is basically he's expected to have less quality training than when he lines up to friggin Gran Camino in February

This. UAE is too scared of Vingegaard to let him build his shape throughout the Tour so fireworks are expected already in stage 1 if Vingegaard is in the race.

 

[Hugh Januss]

" every day it's going in the direction of maybe doing some normal training again in just a matter of time."
That's a pretty carefully parsed statement right there.

 

[Froome]

How much time does he lose getting the hard miles in on climbs like San Luca or Galibier?

Depends on the shape he starts the Tour.

If he starts the Tour in the shape of the Vuelta 2023 and improves until the third week like a lot of riders did in the past, he have a chance of winning the Tour, and i don't expect him to lose that much time in the first two weeks(i don't believe he loses time on Galibier).

If he gets worse, during the Tour, better to get out of race and going to the Vuelta.

I expect that Visma doesn't mess up, and just let him go to the Tour, if he can go in a acceptable shape (like the Vuelta last year). If can't fight for the GC better not put him in the race and focus on the Vuelta.

 

[zekance]

44 days and still not training normally.

Clearly improving so fast only emphasizes how bad it was before

After reading that those quotes are almost 2 weeks old. How do you know that he is still not training normally today?

It sounded to me like he was only days away from normal training and that was almost 2 weeks ago. For all we know he could already be in Switzerland and training normally. His coach said it himself. "We know these guys are mentally really tough but also can recover really fast. At the time of crashing these guys are already really fit, they're not the average athlete."

 

[Froome]

After reading that those quotes are almost 2 weeks old. How do you know that he is still not training normally today?

It sounded to me like he was only days away from normal training and that was almost 2 weeks ago. For all we know he could already be in Switzerland and training normally. His coach said it himself. "We know these guys are mentally really tough but also can recover really fast. At the time of crashing these guys are already really fit, they're not the average athlete."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1790700468164841680

View: https://twitter.com/allergy_al/status/1790700468164841680


He was spotted again this week in Denmark.

 

[Hugh Januss]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1790700468164841680

View: https://twitter.com/allergy_al/status/1790700468164841680


He was spotted again this week in Denmark.

He looks a little heavy.

 

[Oldermanish]

It took me less time to Google this than it did for you to write this comment: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18806550/

I did kind of think it was common knowledge or common sense that exercise caused inflammation, also that exercise is a kind of controlled damage to the body from which the body must later recover. Inflammation is a sign that the body is doing repairs. Is this news to anyone?

I never said these are the exact same processes, but I pointed to one factor that is correlated with rate of repair from both kinds of damage. It's highly likely if you're good at one kind of recovery you will be good at the other.

Possibly. Not necessarily predictable which is why no doctor suggested I ride my indoor trainer excessively while recovering from surgery involving surgery around nerve repairs, grafted tendons and arteries. The concern for impact on that healing surpassed any possible gain and the prescription was almost always low level steroids and rest. The risk for setback was too high. Higher levels of steroids to alleviate painful impact on nerves and implants were used with no-load mobilization.
That said; emphasis on lower level aerobic activity (indoor trainer) was tolerated as an inflammation reducer and encouraged range of motion if it was an issue. Being a stupid cyclist helped being motivated to try harder and ignore minor discomfort. Nerve pain, not so much.