Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Divergence]

Because he didn't want to chase after a teammate with others in his wheel. Eventually Kuss did went after Vingegaard (twice) when he had the feeling he could drop everyone. Which he did btw. I think Roglic could've attacked and went after Vingegaard, you just need to make sure that you aren't taking others with you.

That's when Roglic understood, I need to be the first to attack if I want to win this thing. Otherwise I'm stuck with others. Which is why he attacked first on Angliru.

OK, that means Rog was respecting the team and not chasing after his teammate whilst Vingo had no such qualms and attacked his team unrepentantly. All the while there was an agreement within the team that they would set up Rog for a sprint at the top (as per Kuss's statements). I guess there is nothing more to say/write regarding this. Everyone can draw his/her conclusions. I thought Vingo's actions were very bad for the team (Rog is elsewhere, Kuss is nowhere) but I also thought it was good for the sport. Vingo's comments and behavior after the stage was, however, despicable.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Vingegaard took advantage of being behind to attack. Roglic was in a very awkward situation because he couldn't respond to his teammate.

 

[Netserk]

His advantage was that he was the strongest rider. No one else could do what he did on Tourmalet and Bejes.

 

[Peyroteo94]

His advantage was that he was the strongest rider. No one else could do what he did on Tourmalet and Bejes.

I don't believe Roglic couldn't do better than what he did.

 

[acm]

Because he didn't want to chase after a teammate with others in his wheel. Eventually Kuss did went after Vingegaard (twice) when he had the feeling he could drop everyone. Which he did btw. I think Roglic could've attacked and went after Vingegaard, you just need to make sure that you aren't taking others with you.

And yet that's exactly what Hansen did on Angliru, bringing Mas with him.

 

[Netserk]

I don't believe Roglic couldn't do better than what he did.

I don't think he could do much better on Tourmalet. Had Vingegaard been chained on Bejes and Rogla won the stage, he'd still only have had a lead of 17" over Vingegaard before Angliru and Cruz de Linares.

And yet that's exactly what Hansen did on Angliru, bringing Mas with him.

Vingegaard never pulled on Angliru, he stayed behind Kuss and later Rogla.

 

[Netserk]

Without the Bejes ***, I think Kuss could have defended his lead if the others only attacked him on the uphill finishes.

 

[Divergence]

I don't think he could do much better on Tourmalet. Had Vingegaard been chained on Bejes and Rogla won the stage, he'd still only have had a lead of 17" over Vingegaard before Angliru and Cruz de Linares.

Vingegaard never pulled on Angliru, he stayed behind Kuss and later Rogla.

Without the Bejes ***, I think Kuss could have defended his lead if the others only attacked him on the uphill finishes.

I understand you are a fan of Jonas, but if you truly believe Rog could not do better on the Tourmalet stage then you do not understand cycling and have zero capacity for analysis.

 

[Netserk]

I understand you are a fan of Jonas, but if you truly believe Rog could not do better on the Tourmalet stage then you do not understand cycling and have zero capacity for analysis.

I'm a greater fan of Rogla, but I like both.

 

[Berniece]

OK, that means Rog was respecting the team and not chasing after his teammate whilst Vingo had no such qualms and attacked his team unrepentantly. All the while there was an agreement within the team that they would set up Rog for a sprint at the top (as per Kuss's statements). I guess there is nothing more to say/write regarding this. Everyone can draw his/her conclusions. I thought Vingo's actions were very bad for the team (Rog is elsewhere, Kuss is nowhere) but I also thought it was good for the sport. Vingo's comments and behavior after the stage was, however, despicable.

They said they can fight it out on the road, but you don't ride against your own team. So Vingegaard attacked, and Roglic didn't because others would have followed. Just like you saw Kuss do attack when he was able to drop others. What was holding Roglic back to attack if Kuss already went after Vingegaard? Maybe he just wasn't good enough that day.

 

[Peyroteo94]

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[Divergence]

They said they can fight it out on the road, but you don't ride against your own team. So Vingegaard attacked, and Roglic didn't because others would have followed. Just like you saw Kuss do attack when he was able to drop others. What was holding Roglic back to attack if Kuss already went after Vingegaard? Maybe he just wasn't good enough that day.

It is pretty obvious Rog did not want to chase Vingo. The plan before the start of the stage was for the whole team to bring Rog to 500m and for Rog to sprint for victory. The fighting it out on the road and all the drama was after the stage.
Remember also that Rog was denied a spot on the Tour team and he was told he would be going for the win at the Vuelta. Therefore, I guess he thought there was no need to fight against teammates since that was settled before the race.

 

[Berniece]

It is pretty obvious Rog did not want to chase Vingo. The plan before the start of the stage was for the whole team to bring Rog to 500m and for Rog to sprint for victory. The fighting it out on the road and all the drama was after the stage.
Remember also that Rog was denied a spot on the Tour team and he was told he would be going for the win at the Vuelta. Therefore, I guess he thought there was no need to fight against teammates since that was settled before the race.

In that case it was a *** move by Vingegaard, and I don’t understand why Roglic didn’t went after him. Even more so since Kuss already tried and Vingegaard also went after Roglic in stage 6.

 

[Divergence]

In that case it was a *** move by Vingegaard, and I don’t understand why Roglic didn’t went after him. Even more so since Kuss already tried and Vingegaard also went after Roglic in stage 6.

Exactly. At the end of the day it was Rog's mistake to respect Vingo and the team because he was betrayed by both in the end.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

I'm not commenting the politics of who backstabbed who on what stage, but Jonas was clearly the strongest in 2023 Vuelta and roglic would not gain the time on tourmalet or bejes like vinegardd did. Roglic could barely drop ujtedbrockes in tourmalet.

I am not saying vinegardd did the right thing with his attacks. I find roglic more likable than Jonas and wish roglic won that Vuelta (if I had to pick a Visma rider to win). But with his defensive and reactive tactics roglic put himself in a position where he is vulnerable to attack by a stronger, more proactive teammate. Again, the morality of this is a different dicussoon

 

[Netserk]

Remember also that Rog was denied a spot on the Tour team and he was told he would be going for the win at the Vuelta. Therefore, I guess he thought there was no need to fight against teammates since that was settled before the race.

It was already decided before the season that Vingegaard would ride the Vuelta too.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

There's a huge caveat to what you're writing here: Immediately after Bejes, Sepp Kuss in a post-stage interview said they were targeting the stage with Rog. Vinge launched a surprise attack, basically, and his teammates were stuck in the group behind, i.e. not sure whether to attack (& pretty much chase down a teammate) or sit back and lose the Vuelta (Vinge came within half a minute of red and leapfrogged Rog). The gap on Bejes was not à la pédale'. Vinge fans and neutral observers that evening even attempted to claim Rog couldn't do any better than 'struggle' to follow Mas and Ayuso. But the Angliru 24 hours later showed that was hardly the case.

So... you do the math. Vinge won Tourmalet, whereas Bejes looked like a stomp stage on paper. Why did Kuss say they were aiming to win the stage with Rog? Why was the official version after the Vuelta different? I think we all know.

Kuss didn't say clear cut that team orders was going for Roglic getting the win through a stomp although it's clear that this was Roglic preferred idea of the concept "Being allowed to race for the win". He said that the stage suited Roglic (as in, before the Vuelta that was a good stage for Roglic to win in a reduced group sprint) but Vingegaard picked a good moment to attack and he doesn't blame him going for the stage win.
Again, this was after the rest day where the team orders were literally "attack and race on the road" instead of defending Kuss' red jersey. Of course one can view this as Vingegaard calling Roglics bluff but once again, he was the one originally proposing to keep the order.

I know that the gap on Bejes was not due to Vingegaards strength but due to Kuss and Roglic mainly not being able to chase (although roglic did in the last km and actually towed Mas and Ayuso away from Kuss). However this is just proof that the whole idea of "racing it out on the road" was dumb to begin with because it'll just mean whoever gets a gap first is in prime position. It is not proof that Vingegaard backstabbed someone because he was simply taking the proposal by Roglic at his word - being allowed to go for it.

 

[saunaking]

SAD

 

[RedheadDane]

Worried he has injured his wrist?

 

[Red Rick]

Et tu, Matteus?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Worried he has injured his wrist?

It may only be a problem if it's the one he uses to hold the phone. We'll see if he starts tomorrow.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Did he crash?

 

[Faserr]

Did he crash?

yes

 

[Red Rick]

Did he crash?

Yes.

 

[saunaking]

It may only be a problem if it's the one he uses to hold the phone. We'll see if he starts tomorrow.

He might as well just call Froome