Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Berniece]

Hopefully Remco does a leadout for Merlier in Vuelta sprint stages, if he doesn't, I expect you to change your profile pic

Remco has done multiple leadouts already for the sprinters in his team. Also there's a difference between closing a gap, riding for 500m compared, in a hilly stage when there are only ~20 riders, and doing a leadout on a flat stage with 180 riders.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Ofcourse Vingegaard doesn't have to pull for WVA. The greater good is the yellow.

On an interesting side note - what would Poggy have done if the roles were reversed and Wout was in Poggy's team?
I'm pretty sure I know the answer.

Having WVA in your team is usually a blessing for Vingegaard, remember Hautecam last year, but I'm not to sure about this year.

WVA would have let Pog finish ahead of him for more bonus seconds.

 

[Gigs_98]

I don't know, I think not pulling was the right thing. For me that's a question of principle. The focus should be on the gc and that means the gc leader always comes first, period. If Vingegaard takes one pull today, will they ask him to take two pulls tomorrow? Jumbo shouldn't have to bother about such questions. If you want to give Wout some freedoms, fine, but Vingegaard should never have to work for him.

 

[Jumbot]

Remco has done multiple leadouts already for the sprinters in his team. Also there's a difference between closing a gap, riding for 500m compared, in a hilly stage when there are only ~20 riders, and doing a leadout on a flat stage with 180 riders.

Sure, in Itzulia and Algarve, then you Remco fanboys got angry at Quickstep for making him waste energy and losing the GC in Itzulia... And Jonas did leadouts too, in Dauphine, in bigger groups than today.... But Remco has to do it on a big stage, in a GT, while fighting in GC against guys like Ayuso and boring wheelsucker Primoz on form, until then it doesn't count

 

[Lequack]

This thread is now about which GC guy does most sprint leadouts..

 

[Red Rick]

I don't know, I think not pulling was the right thing. For me that's a question of principle. The focus should be on the gc and that means the gc leader always comes first, period. If Vingegaard takes one pull today, will they ask him to take two pulls tomorrow? Jumbo shouldn't have to bother about such questions. If you want to give Wout some freedoms, fine, but Vingegaard should never have to work for him.

To me it's the sort of thing that can be a really nice gesture but it should never be a requirement. The amount of criticism for Vingegaard is insane to me.

It turns this whole finale analysis about a silly question and it makes you ignore several tactical mistakes that happened in the finale. Van Aert should've never blasted over to Bilbao himself.

 

[theyoungest]

What's mind boggling is that some people think that a 30 second effort is more of a risk to a Tour de France win than messing up group dynamics. This isn't Cycling Manager.

It isn't just the 30 second effort, it's the fact that he effectively helps his main rival when he does that.

Why did I already know Van Aert wasn't going to win at 10 k from the finish, both yesterday and today? It doesn't have anything to do with Vingegaard, it has everything do to with Van Aert. He doesn't have a killer's instinct.

 

[tobydawq]

When did Pogacar help a team mate to victory in the Tour?

Later in the race, Pogacar could very well be the one following moves.

Yesterday?

 

[Jumbot]

But that was indirectly, by being passive, not actively pulling for Yates or something

 

[Cance > TheRest]

I generally do not find Vingegård to be a particularly exciting rider (nor does he show much personality), and this view is based on a more general pattern of conservative riding (or at least only attacking from far out when the competition is Pog-free). As a longtime follower of the sport, he is not an easy rider to cheer for. Some fans of Vingegård may argue that his coolness makes him an enigmatic character, but, really, to me he just seems like a simple man who follows the regime of his team in a very mechanical way. Also, the Danish media has essentially overexposed his life. For this reason, he is not shrouded in mystery in ways that that other Danish pro cyclists (think Jakob Fuglsang) are.

BUT, if I ignore my own general views on Vingegård and focus on today's race, I think that he did the only correct and rational thing for a rider in his shoes. He is not in France to ride for stage wins for Van Aert. Throwing away a possibility to ride for a stage win by refusing to ride with Pog was both a tactic that could benefit himself and definitely benefitted Van Aert, who would NEVER have won the stage, had Pog gone solo. Van Aert, should be plenty content with having the rest of the team riding for him when there is a much bigger GC scheme that needs first priority over his ego project. I reckon he is inching closer to a meltdown of frustration over how disastrous his season his been this far with a sole victory in E3 and then gifting away Gent-Wevelgem (in hindsight an odd decision given his current 3 year winning drought in the monuments).

The views from Belgian experts and Michael Rasmussen about Vingegårds riding also does not surprise me. Belgian cycling media has always been very patriotic about their own heroes (just like Danish media was last summer when Van Aert won stages in the Tour). The frustration of how Van Aerts season has turned out so far is clearly spilling into the analysis of Michael Wuyts and co. As for Michael Rasmussen, I believe he has never slipped out the bitterness that has haunted him since the Tour-exit in 2007 - afterall he should have been the Danish national hero and now he is viewed as a scam by the general public.

 

[tobydawq]

But that was indirectly, by being passive, not actively pulling for Yates or something

Sure, but given the fact that he has never been in a situation where he had a teammate who was faster than him and favourite for the stage, it was quite a stupid question.

 

[Panda Claws]

Vinge the Cringe strikes again

 

[Boes]

WVA would have let Pog finish ahead of him for more bonus seconds.

Kind of like he did yesterday not letting Yates break away in the descent?

 

[SHAD0W93]

Kind of like he did yesterday not letting Yates break away in the descent?

Did WVA attack? No he didn’t. Is WVA a GC threat? No he isn’t. These scenarios are apples and oranges. If WVA and Pog were on the same team, WVA would be taking the bonus seconds away from Pog’s rivals and instructed to do so. If Pog(or Vinge) was drastically superior to the others they’d have both rode for WVA. Adam is gaining time in order to threaten Vingegaard and 1-2 punch Jumbo like they did to Pog last year.

 

[Netserk]

Yesterday?

So you do agree then that Vingegaard helped Van Aert both stages so far.

 

[tobydawq]

So you do agree then that Vingegaard helped Van Aert both stages so far.

No.

 

[Jagartrott]

Hopefully Remco does a leadout for Merlier in Vuelta sprint stages, if he doesn't, I expect you to change your profile pic

The difference of course being that Merlier has never helped Evenepoel win a GC, or anything for that matter. The reason why quite a number of people think that Vingegaard should have pulled for a couple of hundred meters is exactly because of how much work Van Aert has done for Vingegaard last year. He was absolutely instrumental in his win. So knowing that Van Aert has had a pretty mediocre year so far, and knowing that a win would take a lot of pressure of Van Aert AND would greatly help the team spirit, putting in that small effort would have been the right and smart thing to do.

It is not more difficult than that.

 

[SHAD0W93]

On a team morale side, WVA and Benoot did not look happy that the team didn’t win. Usually Jumbo is really good at managing team morale, but like others have said I wouldn’t be surprised if WVA does leave early leaving a big hole in the team to fill.

 

[Mlarsen]

Jonas only has to concentrate on the classification, so keep your mouth shut Vout Van Art lovers ! I also didn't see Pogi riding some in to help Yates defend his yellow jersey.... so stop whining like a child !
Instead, try to focus your anger on the real enemy. Pogi made fun of Van Art and called him a child!

 

[pelotonIQ]

Lafay attacked with 1 km to go, at that point Wout had a teammate pulling and few seconds later Vingegaard got boxed in 5 wheels behind. How could Vingegaard help from that position?

Wout should blame himself for being caught sleeping.

 

[Jumbot]

The difference of course being that Merlier has never helped Evenepoel win a GC, or anything for that matter. The reason why quite a number of people think that Vingegaard should have pulled for a couple of hundred meters is exactly because of how much work Van Aert has done for Vingegaard last year. He was absolutely instrumental in his win. So knowing that Van Aert has had a pretty mediocre year so far, and knowing that a win would take a lot of pressure of Van Aert AND would greatly help the team spirit, putting in that small effort would have been the right and smart thing to do.

It is not more difficult than that.

Oh dont get me wrong, I think ideally Jonas should have closed Lafay, hell, even attack himself no matter if Lafay was there as a sort of a reverse leadout, Pogi would have closed him and WVA could then have been on Pogi wheel getting a leadout from him, the only man that could beat him in that sprint. But that requires decision making in the moment, which is sometimes difficult, especially if you are not often in such situations like Jonas. What pisses me off are these over the top reactions from selfish fanboys who think that everything should evolve around riders they like, same was last year with some of Rogla fans and the backstabbing BS. Not to mention some of the stupid stuff Wout was doing last year, like that stage 6 or not being with his leaders on Roubaix stage before that Jonas mechanical, it is not like he makes great decisions all the time.
Luckily, Jonas doesnt have that many hardcore fans because he is so boring, bla bla bla, so pale, bla bla bla, so fishy... Imagine if it was Primoz in his place, there would be a war on the forum between Rackham, Abi and others on one side and the Belgian "patriots" on the other, it would explode... Or even worse, Rogla crashes into Pello Bilbao while trying to do a leadout for selfish Wout on stage 2 of the Tour, the body count on the forum would be enormous

 

[RedheadDane]

Or even worse, Rogla crashes into Pello Bilbao while trying to do a leadout for selfish Wout on stage 2 of the Tour, the body count on the forum would be enormous

Someone would probably claim it was actually Bilbao who had caused the crash, because of the supposed "beef" all the riders on Bahrain have with Roglic.

 

[frisenfruitig]

To me it's the sort of thing that can be a really nice gesture but it should never be a requirement. The amount of criticism for Vingegaard is insane to me.

It turns this whole finale analysis about a silly question and it makes you ignore several tactical mistakes that happened in the finale. Van Aert should've never blasted over to Bilbao himself.

Perhaps the amount of criticism is "insane" because it was rather obvious he could have helped -even if it was just a little- instead of just sitting back. Anyone could see Kelderman wasn't going to close that gap. A little give and take wouldn't kill the guy, no one is expecting him to jeopardize his GC chances by doing leadouts in flat stages.

Lafay attacked with 1 km to go, at that point Wout had a teammate pulling and few seconds later Vingegaard got boxed in 5 wheels behind. How could Vingegaard help from that position?

Wout should blame himself for being caught sleeping.

"Boxed in", lol. It was a tiny group, going to the front would have taken a couple of seconds. Wout had already closed a couple of gaps before that, you can't expect him to close every gap with Pogacar sitting in his wheel ready to win the sprint.

 

[ZamlinusYoutubeious]

This thread is now about which GC guy does most sprint leadouts..

In recent times Wigans, Thomas, G and Froome...iirc. The sky men's.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Perhaps the amount of criticism is "insane" because it was rather obvious he could have helped -even if it was just a little- instead of just sitting back. Anyone could see Kelderman wasn't going to close that gap. A little give and take wouldn't kill the guy, no one is expecting him to jeopardize his GC chances by doing leadouts in flat stages.


"Boxed in", lol. It was a tiny group, going to the front would have taken a couple of seconds. Wout had already closed a couple of gaps before that, you can't expect him to close every gap with Pogacar sitting in his wheel ready to win the sprint.

He was boxed in and 9 wheels back at 730 meters to go before overhead camera cut. I'm so sure that would've taken ''a couple of seconds'' to go to the front and do a nice little pull for Wout even when the pace was already very high.

Where is the common sense?