Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Berniece]

If it's about publicity, the American should obviously win.

Cycling isn't that big in the US, compared to Europe. I think Vingegaard winning does more for publicity in the whole world than Kuss would

 

[tretiak]

Great argument. You did miss his point, though.

Please write some quotes of Jonas (lifelong search for special occasions to dedicate and win races for) that are so funny.

 

[tobydawq]

Please write some quotes of Jonas (lifelong search for special occasions to dedicate and win races for) that are so funny.

Well, they're of course not funny individually but there certainly seems to be a pattern.

Yesterday it was Nathan's accident
The other day it was his daughter's birthday
In Dauphiné there had been an incident at a kindergarten somewhere in France
Last year on Hautacam, he had apparently promised his girlfriend he'd win

 

[topt]

Now they won WITH him taking time, and this upsets you WHY?

if you dont know why you should start watching another sport

 

[RedheadDane]

Then unsubstantiated "clinic rumours" became the reason.

TBF, any rider who has a smidgen of success gets that...

 

[tobydawq]

TBF, any rider who has a smidgen of success gets that...

Obviously that didn't matter to Broccoli in his quest of forging a formidable-looking list.

 

[Rackham]

Obviously I'm not a Skeletor's fan but do you think that Primoz wasn't allowed to attack on the bottom of the climb? I think anyone of JV leaders could do it (if he wanted) but it was Jonas who intended to do it (he likely felt more confident in his form than other JV guys). He tried and succeeded.

According to Kuss, the plan was to go for the stage with Rog. So he was probably waiting for the final km, as per usual. It was Vinge who went off script & won the jackpot. Good for him I guess.

But in another team, Rog would have jumped on Vingegaard's wheel when he attacked (with the risk of others bridging over as well because it wouldn't matter). Maybe he would have lost it at some point? But the presence of Fisher-Black, Poels & Storer in positions 2, 3 & 4 in the stage shows just how much Vingegaard benefitted from the inaction of the bunch behind.

Vingegaard basically had his two real rivals for the overall GC win (Rog & Kuss) neutered by their tactical position (can't directly respond to a teammate attack + dependent on others jumping over or chasing).

And back on Javalambre on stage 6, Vingegaard did attack behind Rog & drag Mas over to him. I mean from my chair here Vingegaard clearly has total freedom to attack his teammates whenever, however & no matter the race situation (like on Sunday when he bridged over to the split with Soler).

All this will probably become a moot point on the Angliru later today but I just can't reconcile yesterday's time loss endured by Rog & Kuss with "win together". It was Vinge going for red & stuffing his teammates.

 

[bNator]

Vingegaard is a man without class or character.

He says he is not attacking his teammates yet if not his teammates - who is he attacking then? In Tourmalet, we can pretend he was making sure he was in the podium spot. But today, his attack was directed at Primoz and Kuss who were not free to defend. His modus operandi this Vuelta seems to be to attack as early as possible and get in a situation where his teammates are not allowed to respond because they should not help the chase.

He attacked his teammate in leaders jersey twice now. Which everyone knows is never done in cycling. But alright, do it if you will. Just stop saying you are racing for the team, for your daughter, for your best freind. Declare your intentions and give the man a fighting chance!

His words and actions all point to a conclusion he is a greedy passive aggressive manipulator and a liar....

I think Sepp and Roglic now know what's going on at least and will not sit back the next time he decides to screw them again. Which will be today...

 

[Baldinger]

please stop, it's too much now

 

[The Clogger]

These mental confirmation bias flips, that some people can make.. fascinating..

to the less explosive guy like Jonas (who got one weak a'zz finish) - "Maybe you could easily do it, without taking time on Sebb"
and Kuss who clearly admitted it was a tad too steep for him and he didn't have it today.. Jumbo would have gotten nada if their team-captain should sit and monitor Kuss, to not risk offending anybody' - and not deliver the actual job they had planned and Jumbo Visma, Kuss, Roglic, Vingegaard etc. literally had used all day to achieve.

But it's nothing new.. we also saw it in Tour de France 2022, 2023 with all the Pogacar screamers that came out of the woodwork, when they saw that Jonas was superior and won it.
We saw it at the Tourmalet stage in this Vuelta, where Jonas took Tourmalet, and the fans behind Remco, got quite mad after he lost ½ hour on that Tourmalet stage and all the Sepp Kuss clientele. got a tad salty as how could Jumbo Visma captain Vingegaard dare to attack on this Tourmalet stage when Kuss was still in Red..

We saw it in 2023 with Van Aert and that whole national backland, where they expected the small 60kg tour captain and current Tour de France champ, should also do lead-out and risk crash etc' when Jumbo Visma had dedicated guys for that job.

It's cold at the top..Jonas needs to accept that..and the fact that some radical characters are quite passionate' when things don't go the way they want, and the aspect of the strongest rider for the win.. no bearing..
Sofar Jonas been the dude who set things in motion and made this Vuelta way more see-worthy than it would have been without him.

Like most people, I just want entertaining cycling, see some action, while trying to decipher who is the strongest rider, as these grand tours can get quite tiresome'.

Jumbo Visma feels so secure with the podium.. that they have allowed the riders to race, so we can find out who is the strongest, sofar it does look like Jonas is the strongest, with a margin, and it is down to a +3min group breakaway on stage6, which Jonas as captain - greenlit to Seb and he were allowed to go in that breakaway, the fact that Seb is at the podium now and P1 is because of those +3min, as otherwise, he would be P6...

Let them race, and hopefully, we spectators can see some fascinating cycling, that we can enjoy.
They were all allowed to attack today on the final climb, no strings on Roglic, Vingegaard or Kuss from Jumbo Visma management..

Well put. The mental gymnastics on this forum should be a human study in itself. Everyone and their dog are trying to twist and turn every action and every word to fit their quite obvious agendas. I wonder if these people are actually convincing themselves in the process of if it's mostly cope mechanisms on display?

 

[Rackham]

These mental confirmation bias flips, that some people can make.. fascinating..

to the less explosive guy like Jonas (who got one weak a'zz finish) - "Maybe you could easily do it, without taking time on Sebb"
and Kuss who clearly admitted it was a tad too steep for him and he didn't have it today.. Jumbo would have gotten nada if their team-captain should sit and monitor Kuss, to not risk offending anybody' - and not deliver the actual job they had planned and Jumbo Visma, Kuss, Roglic, Vingegaard etc. literally had used all day to achieve.

But it's nothing new.. we also saw it in Tour de France 2022, 2023 with all the Pogacar screamers that came out of the woodwork, when they saw that Jonas was superior and won it.
We saw it at the Tourmalet stage in this Vuelta, where Jonas took Tourmalet, and the fans behind Remco, got quite mad after he lost ½ hour on that Tourmalet stage and all the Sepp Kuss clientele. got a tad salty as how could Jumbo Visma captain Vingegaard dare to attack on this Tourmalet stage when Kuss was still in Red..

We saw it in 2023 with Van Aert and that whole national backland, where they expected the small 60kg tour captain and current Tour de France champ, should also do lead-out and risk crash etc' when Jumbo Visma had dedicated guys for that job.

It's cold at the top..Jonas needs to accept that..and the fact that some radical characters are quite passionate' when things don't go the way they want, and the aspect of the strongest rider for the win.. no bearing..
Sofar Jonas been the dude who set things in motion and made this Vuelta way more see-worthy than it would have been without him.

Like most people, I just want entertaining cycling, see some action, while trying to decipher who is the strongest rider, as these grand tours can get quite tiresome'.

Jumbo Visma feels so secure with the podium.. that they have allowed the riders to race, so we can find out who is the strongest, sofar it does look like Jonas is the strongest, with a margin, and it is down to a +3min group breakaway on stage6, which Jonas as captain - greenlit to Seb and he were allowed to go in that breakaway, the fact that Seb is at the podium now and P1 is because of those +3min, as otherwise, he would be P6...

Let them race, and hopefully, we spectators can see some fascinating cycling, that we can enjoy.
They were all allowed to attack today on the final climb, no strings on Roglic, Vingegaard or Kuss from Jumbo Visma management..

Vingegaard didn't gain over a minute because he's better or had better legs. He gained that time because Kuss & Rog were tactically stuffed.

All he had to do was wait until the Angliru but I guess taking 1:40 out of Kuss was looking a bit sketchy so he had to launch it yesterday & take back some time before today.

Good for him. He's a born winner. Ruthless, remorseless & he'll win a lot. But at least be honest. Enough with the team's sugar-coating (he did it for Nathan!) & "samen winnen" claptrap where what's good for Vingegaard is painted as good for everyone, no matter how much damage it does to his teammates.

But I do agree that it spiced up the action in this Vuelta a little. Now I can't wait for Kuss to attack on the Angliru. Let's hope he has the legs.

 

[kn0s]

Emotions running high in here. Logic is out the window for sure.

There was a plan too bet on Roglic from the start. Makes sense with this profile. The plan changed when Walter was done too early on the climb. Instead of a free for all Jumbo took control.

Now you can be mad at UAE for riding "not normal/stupid" but that has nothing to do with Jonas.

Why even bring Jonas if you only want Rog stomps? What good is he then?

This is not a Kuss climb, and he was in damage control mode, but never in any real danger under normal circumstances, UAE messed it a little up for him. He has minutes and normally you can't lose too much here.

When was Roglic ever locked down? He was never going anywhere on this climb outside the last 1km, thinking anything else is just delusional.
He was not strong enough to make separation, simple as that. Thinking he could destroy them if Kuss wasn't dropped and only stopped because he looked back and saw Kuss' pleading eyes, common, get real.

 

[bNator]

Well put. The mental gymnastics on this forum should be a human study in itself. Everyone and their dog are trying to twist and turn every action and every word to fit their quite obvious agendas. I wonder if these people are actually convincing themselves in the process of if it's mostly cope mechanisms on display?

No mental gymnastics needed TBH. It's right there, real controversy right in front of our eyes. I urge you to name the last time something like this happened in the race... meaning that the leader was attacked by his own teammate like that. I think it's TDF 1986. And it was so controversial back then they made a documentary out of that.

There are countless of examples where the leaders were not attacked by their clearly stronger teammates. Ulrich/Riis 1996 and Froom/Wiggins 2012 just to name a few.

But there are no examples where a ledaer was attacked by his teammate and was not allowed to respond himself. Ok granted we don't know for sure that's what happened (if Kuss was really not allowed to respond by the team or if it was just his own "code of honor") but it's quite likely...

 

[Rackham]

Emotions running high in here. Logic is out the window for sure.

There was a plan too bet on Roglic from the start. Makes sense with this profile. The plan changed when Walter was done too early on the climb. Instead of a free for all Jumbo took control.

Now you can be mad at UAE for riding "not normal/stupid" but that has nothing to do with Jonas.

Why even bring Jonas if you only want Rog stomps? What good is he then?

This is not a Kuss climb, and he was in damage control mode, but never in any real danger under normal circumstances, UAE messed it a little up for him. He has minutes and normally you can't lose too much here.

When was Roglic ever locked down? He was never going anywhere on this climb outside the last 1km, thinking anything else is just delusional.
He was not strong enough to make separation, simple as that. Thinking he could destroy them if Kuss wasn't dropped and only stopped because he looked back and saw Kuss' pleading eyes, common, get real.

Rog is better than Fisher-Black, is he not? Ditto Sepp Kuss as well, i.e. just because 'the climb doesn't suit him' doesn't mean he'd normally finish behind Fisher-Black, Poels & Storer on yesterday's finish.

If Vingegaard & Rog are completely incompatible, then it's time for mutual separation & a change of teams for the latter. The situation he found himself in yesterday (Vingegaard attacks, he doesn't follow, no one chases, he loses a minute) was crazy.

 

[Bolder]

Vingegaard is a man without class or character.

He says he is not attacking his teammates yet if not his teammates - who is he attacking then? In Tourmalet, we can pretend he was making sure he was in the podium spot. But today, his attack was directed at Primoz and Kuss who were not free to defend. His modus operandi this Vuelta seems to be to attack as early as possible and get in a situation where his teammates are not allowed to respond because they should not help the chase.

He attacked his teammate in leaders jersey twice now. Which everyone knows is never done in cycling. But alright, do it if you will. Just stop saying you are racing for the team, for your daughter, for your best freind. Declare your intentions and give the man a fighting chance!

His words and actions all point to a conclusion he is a greedy passive aggressive manipulator and a liar....

I think Sepp and Roglic now know what's going on at least and will not sit back the next time he decides to screw them again. Which will be today...

Nah, he's just ultra competitive, like Michael Jordan or Lance. Some people are like that. I don't hold that against him. They didn't name Merckx the "cannibal" because he kissed babies and petted puppies.

 

[theyoungest]

Emotions running high in here. Logic is out the window for sure.

There was a plan too bet on Roglic from the start. Makes sense with this profile. The plan changed when Walter was done too early on the climb. Instead of a free for all Jumbo took control.

Now you can be mad at UAE for riding "not normal/stupid" but that has nothing to do with Jonas.

Why even bring Jonas if you only want Rog stomps? What good is he then?

This is not a Kuss climb, and he was in damage control mode, but never in any real danger under normal circumstances, UAE messed it a little up for him. He has minutes and normally you can't lose too much here.

When was Roglic ever locked down? He was never going anywhere on this climb outside the last 1km, thinking anything else is just delusional.
He was not strong enough to make separation, simple as that. Thinking he could destroy them if Kuss wasn't dropped and only stopped because he looked back and saw Kuss' pleading eyes, common, get real.

Yes, the alternative was that Vingegaard would do a 3 k leadout for Roglic. Is that what the Roglic fans expected?

His attack made perfect sense. The fact that Fisher-Black found himself in a solo chase, and wasn't told to wait and help his teammates, that's the real problem, from Roglic' perspective. Part of the reason why people are so obsessed with Jumbo's intra-team dynamics is that the other teams are so inept that they don't really feature anymore in the race.

 

[kn0s]

No mental gymnastics needed TBH. It's right there, real controversy right in front of our eyes. I urge you to name the last time something like this happened in the race... meaning that the leader was attacked by his own teammate like that. I think it's TDF 1986. And it was so controversial back then they made a documentary out of that.

There are countless of examples where the leaders were not attacked by their clearly stronger teammates. Ulrich/Riis 1996 and Froom/Wiggins 2012 just to name a few.

But there are no examples where a ledaer was attacked by his teammate and was not allowed to respond himself. Ok granted we don't know for sure that's what happened (if Kuss was really not allowed to respond by the team or if it was just his own "code of honor") but it's quite likely...

What is all this "allow" guessing. You don't know anything about it really. Where they able to do anything, doesn't look like it. Else we would have tourmalet all over again.

 

[bNator]

What is all this "allow" guessing. You don't know anything about it really. Where they able to do anything, doesn't look like it. Else we would have tourmalet all over again.

I'm not sure I understand your post. It's true it's a guess, but it's a good guess nevertheless. @Rackham's point about Fisher-Black, Poels and Storer is a good point...

 

[Baldinger]

People are reading way too much into this. Vingegaard was behind both Roglic and Kuss in GC, so of course he would be the first one to attack. Meanwhile Kuss'n'Rog could chill safely behind the others. I don't think Jumbo expected the group to slow down like that.

If Vingegaard really wanted the red jersey yesterday, he would've sprinted to the line but he clearly didn't.

I don't know why some of you have to write such horriblethings about Vingegaard. He is not a "greedy passive aggressive manipulator and a liar....". Come on.

 

[tobydawq]

No mental gymnastics needed TBH. It's right there, real controversy right in front of our eyes. I urge you to name the last time something like this happened in the race... meaning that the leader was attacked by his own teammate like that. I think it's TDF 1986. And it was so controversial back then they made a documentary out of that.

There are countless of examples where the leaders were not attacked by their clearly stronger teammates. Ulrich/Riis 1996 and Froom/Wiggins 2012 just to name a few.

But there are no examples where a ledaer was attacked by his teammate and was not allowed to respond himself. Ok granted we don't know for sure that's what happened (if Kuss was really not allowed to respond by the team or if it was just his own "code of honor") but it's quite likely...

There's also the Aru/Landa situation from the 2015 Giro.

 

[Berniece]

People are reading way too much into this. Vingegaard was behind both Roglic and Kuss in GC, so of course he would be the first one to attack. Meanwhile Kuss'n'Rog could chill safely behind the others. I don't think Jumbo expected the group to slow down like that.

If Vingegaard really wanted the red jersey yesterday, he would've sprinted to the line but he clearly didn't.

I don't know why some of you have to write such horriblethings about Vingegaard. He is not a "greedy passive aggressive manipulator and a liar....". Come on.

We'll see today... If he attacks again without Mas/Ayuso having attacked he is exactly that. Otherwise not.

 

[Baldinger]

We'll see today... If he attacks again without Mas/Ayuso having attacked he is exactly that. Otherwise not.

why?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I don't think you can blaim Vingegaard for Roglič and/or Kuss not trying to break away from the other favourites sooner. As soon as Vingegaard had a healthy gap, I think it would have been alright for them to attack. If they were told to hold back by the team car, then the anger should be directed at them, and not Vingegaard.

 

[theyoungest]

Cycling isn't that big in the US, compared to Europe. I think Vingegaard winning does more for publicity in the whole world than Kuss would

It's not that big in the US, but in a country of 300 million people, there's obviously still quite a lot of cyclists... and Cervélos to sell. Plus the idea of an American winning a grand tour is always good for publicity.

 

[kn0s]

I'm not sure I understand your post. It's true it's a guess, but it's a good guess nevertheless. @Rackham's point about Fisher-Black, Poels and Storer is a good point...

The non GC riders between you can ignore completely, they don't matter. Where Rog and Kuss able to best the ones that matter, even with the grandma tempo a large part of the climb. No, they where not. The tempo being higer (no inbetween riders) makes them more likely to do so?