Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[theyoungest]

Nah it's still super bad rider managment.

Especially if they get news it's gonna be relatively okay before they even hit the final climb, and then suddenly Vingegaard wants to win for his buddy?

Somehow this forum desperately wants Vingegaard's emotions to be dishonest. Meanwhile a guy who hardly shows any emotion at all gets all kinds of emotions ascribed to him by his fans. Fascinating stuff.

"Oh, he's alive? Great. Now let's move on to the order of the day like nothing has happened". That's how you would argue in such a situation?

 

[Gargamel35]

While we’re at it, still cycling but you really loved this rider with his kid:

Google Image Result for https://www.taipeitimes.com/images/2021/09/07/P16-210907-310.jpg

Google Image Result for https://i.eurosport.com/2023/05/28/3714194-75573813-2560-1440.jpg

Google Image Result for https://images.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/urn-publicid-ap-org-4424e07d31fdbd9d6d44791779b9051dFrance_Cycling_Paris_Nice_29332.jpg?d=780x1154

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I loved Roglič being on the podium but i was annoyed by the kid, because Roglič had to deal with him more than with the trophy/ceremony.

 

[RedheadDane]

If we remove all the emotional stuff, and looks at it from a purely tactical perspective, wasn't it a fairly common move?

One rider - Vingegaard - attacks, while the other rider(s) of the team - Roglic and Kuss - stays with the group, forcing the other teams to chase.
Either the attacking rider stays away, and wins. Or, if he's caught, the next rider can counter-attack, or sprint from the group.

 

[YavorD]

If we remove all the emotional stuff, and looks at it from a purely tactical perspective, wasn't it a fairly common move?

One rider - Vingegaard - attacks, while the other rider(s) of the team - Roglic and Kuss - stays with the group, forcing the other teams to chase.
Either the attacking rider stays away, and wins. Or, if he's caught, the next rider can counter-attack, or sprint from the group.

I think the problem comes exactly from the fact that Vingegaard was the first rider to attack because he was allowed to do so 2 stages earlier.

Now, I'm not sure if Roglic was strong enough on that stage (I think he wasn't), but if he was the attacking rider and, say, UAE caught him then Vingegaard attacks and stays clear, nobody would say a thing because it would've been clear that Roglic wasn't strong enough.

 

[Froome]

If we remove all the emotional stuff, and looks at it from a purely tactical perspective, wasn't it a fairly common move?

One rider - Vingegaard - attacks, while the other rider(s) of the team - Roglic and Kuss - stays with the group, forcing the other teams to chase.
Either the attacking rider stays away, and wins. Or, if he's caught, the next rider can counter-attack, or sprint from the group.

I don't understand the issue. There was no more domestiques to work for Roglic, so the initial plan was over when Vallter was on the limit.

Visma used very well the numbers in the end to win the stage.

 

[theyoungest]

I don't doubt he was emotional. I just say it's a poor excuse for *** team cohesion. Similarly, the DSs bungled up by not flat out telling him no when he asked on the radio if he could attack.

Because it was tactically a good move! It's UAE who messed up. You expect them to chase, Roglic and Kuss sitting comfortably on the wheel. If anyone should have been told not to go solo, it was Fisher-Black. Completely pointless move.

 

[Netserk]

If we remove all the emotional stuff, and looks at it from a purely tactical perspective, wasn't it a fairly common move?

One rider - Vingegaard - attacks, while the other rider(s) of the team - Roglic and Kuss - stays with the group, forcing the other teams to chase.
Either the attacking rider stays away, and wins. Or, if he's caught, the next rider can counter-attack, or sprint from the group.

Yes, and no one would complain if that had been the team plan that everyone agreed to.

 

[RedheadDane]

Yes, and no one would complain if that had been the team plan that everyone agreed to.

If a change of plans gives you more options, why not?

My earlier point still stands; they won! So, tactically, it worked.

 

[Froome]

Yes, and no one would complain if that had been the team plan that everyone agreed to.

The plan may have changed during the race when things don't work well.

Vallter was on the limit, they didn't had more domestiques to do the work, so they changed the plan like and things worked very well. They used the numbers and won the stage. The only team who failed was UAE because they should try with almeida or ayuso respond to vingegaard's attack, or at least putting fisher black working in the peloton.

Visma finally learned after the Tour that sometimes things don't work like expected and it's necessary sometimes to change the plan during the race.

In the Tour de France on the stage of cambasque they didn’t change the plan and then in the end of the stage, they were punished for that.
When Vingegaard attacked on Tourmalet, he should had stopped his attack after 500 m, after seeing that he couldn't drop Pogacar. He pushed until the end of the Tourmalet and attacked again in cambasque when was evident that he didn't had the legs to drop pogacar on that day. It was a mistake specially when he had a good advantage of 1 minute after the previous stage. If Visma changed the plan and vingegaard stopped his attack after 500 m, he would conserve energy and probably wouldn't had lost 22 seconds to pogacar in cambasque.

Sometimes the teams need some flexibility and change the plan during the stages when things don't work like expected.

 

[tobydawq]

My earlier point still stands; they won! So, tactically, it worked.

This is an incredibly simplistic and narrow-minded way to view the situation.

 

[RedheadDane]

This is an incredibly simplistic and narrow-minded way to view the situation.

No need to make things more complicated.

 

[tobydawq]

No need to make things more complicated.

Yes, because the race had already been won at that point. So his attack had no impact on that part of the goal at all.

 

[Netserk]

On the rest day, they knew they had the GC locked up. Kuss had a nice buffer, and only 7" separated Vingegaard and Rogla. They agreed to race for the overall.

Had they already decided then to hand Kuss the overall victory, it would matter less that Vingegaard attacked for the stage win. But when it happened, it was an attack on the GC. It ended the possibility of a fair fight to the end right there.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

But at the end of the day, Roglič's exit might have been unavoidable. but it could have been handled in a more graceful way.

 

[theyoungest]

But at the end of the day, Roglič's exit might have been unavoidable. but it could have been handled in a more graceful way.

Maybe it has the advantage that (as his fans believe) Roglic has huge feelings of revenge against Visma, so he'll maybe attack a little more when we don't expect it. There were missed opportunities in the Tour he lost against Pogacar. If Vingegaard and Pogi have last year's form it won't suffice to sprint for bonus seconds, he'll need a different plan.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Maybe it has the advantage that (as his fans believe) Roglic has huge feelings of revenge against Visma, so he'll maybe attack a little more when we don't expect it. There were missed opportunities in the Tour he lost against Pogacar. If Vingegaard and Pogi have last year's form it won't suffice to sprint for bonus seconds, he'll need a different plan.

Wheelsuck someone who does take initiative, eh?

 

[theyoungest]

Wheelsuck someone who does take initiative, eh?

Haha, the Evenepoel fans are getting involved as well.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Haha, the Evenepoel fans are getting involved as well.

Seriously though, i hope Evenepoel keeps a low profile, so Roglic will need to find someone else to wheelsuck.

 

[Gargamel35]

Haha, the Evenepoel fans are getting involved as well.

Yeah they love explosive long attacks when they don't matter and short complete implosions. Both delivered by the same guy.

 

[Blanco]

I don't understand the issue. There was no more domestiques to work for Roglic, so the initial plan was over when Vallter was on the limit.

Visma used very well the numbers in the end to win the stage.

Valter was on the limit precisely because the plan was changed, no one would expect from him to drill the climb all the way to the last km. They wanted to make it hard earlier and then Valter went full gas from the bottom, and lasted as long as he could.
Vingegaard ask for permition way before the climb, Niermann agreed and that's why they rode it like that.

 

[Froome]

Valter was on the limit precisely because the plan was changed, no one would expect from him to drill the climb all the way to the last km. They wanted to make it hard earlier and then Valter went full gas from the bottom, and lasted as long as he could.
Vingegaard ask for permition way before the climb, Niermann agreed and that's why they rode it like that.

Probably they expected more from kelderman, but it was right to change the plan when they saw there were no domestiques to control the race until the last km.

I think vingegaard asked for permition during the climb.

 

[Froome]

Roglic fans and Remco fans should call a truce. Now your main opponent will be Vingegaard.

 

[Berniece]

Roglic fans and Remco fans should call a truce. Now your main opponent will be Vingegaard.

After Paris-Nice, when Remco wins

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Because it was tactically a good move! It's UAE who messed up. You expect them to chase, Roglic and Kuss sitting comfortably on the wheel. If anyone should have been told not to go solo, it was Fisher-Black. Completely pointless move.

Believe it or not, I agree with this. I don't blame Vingegaard for asking or for wanting to win for himself (or his teammate). I more take issue with the team's inconsistency and the narrative of Vingegaard being this gentle giving creature and Roglic selfish. All 3 wanted to win and all 3 had reasons why it made sense for them to win and all 3 at times rode selfishly and at times selflessly. Ultimately, it was the team car that decided who won and who was second and who was third. And that is tough to get past if you’re Roglic in your twilight years trying to tie the record for Vuelta wins and win your first Tour.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Thanks guys for evolving Remco. As for Rogla changing his winning ways. It could be that changing teams will change his racing style, slightly, too. Still in 2024 season i lean more towards two possible scenarios. That is if we focus on Rogla vs Jonas.

Jonas will need to ride away on some hill, or Rogla will stomp him. Now Remco can play along or can do his own thing. That doesn't change much. In the end it's appropriate, for Rogla to beat Jonas in the way, he couldn't any more at Visma. That is if Jonas won't just ride away, as some seem to suggest. If Jonas can do that then there is nothing to worry about, for Jonas and his fans. Otherwise indeed tough luck. We'll see.