Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Divergence]

What we have been told by people involved:

First rest day meeting. (Before the fateful day)

Jonas you want to race for it?
Jonas: not really, we should ride for Kuss

Roglic do you want to race for it?
Roglic: I want to race, Kuss should earn it on the road.

Roglic later: well I didn't want to race that fast, it hurts me little leggies

So why did Rog not defend during the Tourmalet stage?

 

[QueenStagiaire]

I think they should have let Landa race for himself in the 2015 Giro. There, I‘ve said it.

 

[kn0s]

So why did Rog not defend during the Tourmalet stage?

There was more that 500m to the finish line, what is he going to do?

 

[Divergence]

There was more that 500m to the finish line, what is he going to do?

So you honestly believe that Rog did not have the legs to go to the front of the peloton and try to chase down Jonas? Even as the peloton was mucking about and nobody was pulling?
The truth is Rog was probably boiling on the inside but he did not want to go to the front of the peloton and chase down his teammate. Maybe he thought next day he would be allowed to do the same or idk.. His mistake for not acting proactively.
However, this does not change the fact that Jonas is the one who attacked his teammates first and I explained above what my problem was with that.

 

[Netserk]

Ahh not this *** again.

Opinions about Contador attacking Andy Schleck when his chain dropped?

I think that was an active discussion for several years afterwards. The 2023 Vuelta is not even two years ago.

 

[kn0s]

So you honestly believe that Rog did not have the legs to go to the front of the peloton and try to chase down Jonas? Even as the peloton was mucking about and nobody was pulling?
The truth is Rog was probably boiling on the inside but he did not want to go to the front of the peloton and chase down his teammate. Maybe he thought next day he would be allowed to do the same or idk.. His mistake for not acting proactively.
However, this does not change the fact that Jonas is the one who attacked his teammates first and I explained above what my problem was with that.

Go back and read what Kuss has to say about that day. Spoiler - Jonas asked him several times if it was ok for him to attack and he gave permission.

 

[Divergence]

Go back and read what Kuss has to say about that day. Spoiler - Jonas asked him several times if it was ok for him to attack and he gave permission.

It is hardly up to Kuss to give such permission.
But you did not answer my question.

 

[Sciatic]

Apologies since I might have been the one to start this side-track discussion about the 2003 Vuelta in this race thread. My point wasn't about whether it was a good decision or not, nor about which riders agreed or didn't, nor about who was sneaky and who was honest. I was just lamenting what we as cycling fans lost potentially a final week of great racing from that decision, so I hoped we would not get as similar thing from Visma in this race should Vingegaard and Jorgenson be well ahead of everyone else entering the final stages.

 

[kn0s]

It is hardly to Kuss to give such permission.
But you did not answer my question.

Well you do seem to base some of you hate of Jonas on the terrible things he did to kuss and it's just a little funny that he doesn't feel the same.

I really don't care what Roglic could or couldn't do that day. The whole mess was just lame. Jonas should have gone even further.

 

[Divergence]

Well you do seem to base some of you hate of Jonas on the terrible things he did to kuss and it's just a little funny that he doesn't feel the same.

I really don't care what Roglic could or couldn't do that day. The whole mess was just lame. Jonas should have gone even further.

No, not to Kuss. Frankly he was not the best rider at that Vuelta and Rog and Jonas should have fought it out. But Jonas acted very deviously and his interviews were pathetic hence my dislike for him.
You say you do not care and that is OK, but it also means you do not want to analyze the race but just write stuff and cheerlead your guy.

 

[dazaau]

Took the jersey from his teammate and defending champion and lost the stage. It's pretty funny even if Visma don't think so

 

[Froome]

Took the jersey from his teammate and defending champion and lost the stage. It's pretty funny even if Visma don't think so

Actually he lost the stage today because he was neutralizing all of the attacks they were doing to Jorgenson, plus the fact the pace wasn't good for him.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Not sure why he wants to be good in May when there are no races, odd scenes deciding to do a Geraint Thomas style buildup.

Perhaps he wants to be fresh as possible for his home WT race 'Copenhagen Sprint' after the Dauphine.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

It started with Vingegaard going against team orders on Bejes and backstabbing Roglic even before they ever set eyes on Angliru.

You may want to misremember or spin it any way you want but the truth is as follows:
Kuss got the jersey on stage 6.
Rog was best of the GC guys in the TT and got some time back but never attacked.
On stage 13 Jonas attacked his team and leapfrogged Rog who stayed back and did not defend. After this he was pissed obviously and stated that he wants to race for the win (I believe he wanted to race for the win even before this stage but did not want to attack so soon and believed he would slowly regain the time deficit to Kuss and win sort of by default). However, Jonas's attack changed everything in the dynamic of the team and what I found worst was Jonas's interview after the stage where he did not have the balls to say outright he attacked everybody including Kuss and Rog and wants to fight for red but sorta hid behind I did it for my daughter (as if others are childless).
In the end the team intervened and what happened happened.
But Jonas's behavior was despicable and I dislike him even more since then.

Like I wrote before:
After the Tourmalet stage when Remco was eliminated, Vingegaard proposed to take it like this to Madrid. In a situation where he was actually BEHIND Roglic and obviously Kuss.
This was reaffirmed by him at the rest day but Roglic and his camp wanted to "race it out" on the road.
This is all well documented, see here:

And before you all scream "Visma propaganda", all these positions were well reported during the Vuelta, this wasn't some hindsight twisting. You can also see the teammeeting after the Tourmalet stage where Vingegaard proposes to keep it like that and no one is forcing Roglic to say "Yeah I wanted to win" into the camera.

So the team agreed to let them race and immidiately after the rest day, Bejes and the fallout happen. So Vingegaard actually followed team orders by "racing" although the whole proposition was obviously dumb in the first place. Even after Angliru he reiterates in the interview he wants Kuss to win the Vuelta and the team finally pull the plug on the "fighting it out on the roads" project.
Now I agree that Vingegaards reasonings for stage winning ("For my daughter, for my wife, for Nathan, for my cousins dog") are mostly nonsense but it's pretty stupid to call him a traitor or backstabber when his opinion gets overruled and when he actually follows through with the "new plan" the fandom of Slovenian Valverde gets outraged.

 

[topcat]

Apologies since I might have been the one to start this side-track discussion about the 2003 Vuelta in this race thread. My point wasn't about whether it was a good decision or not, nor about which riders agreed or didn't, nor about who was sneaky and who was honest. I was just lamenting what we as cycling fans lost potentially a final week of great racing from that decision, so I hoped we would not get as similar thing from Visma in this race should Vingegaard and Jorgenson be well ahead of everyone else entering the final stages.

Won by Heras. The top 6 were all Spanish.

 

[Sciatic]

Won by Heras. The top 6 were all Spanish.

The date thing isn't working very well for me today. 2023

 

[saunaking]

Just watched this stage, what happened, did his wife not pick up when he called her during the neutralization?

So I guess Rabobank IS back - not sure how jumbo manged to fumble this stage away.
Jonas looks terrible, couldn't win with such a gap at 1km even though they spent some time looking around. Then he even gets gapped by Almedia lol

Panic mode is on. Wout washed, Jonas washed, Rabofail back at the helm

 

[Rackham]

Like I wrote before:
After the Tourmalet stage when Remco was eliminated, Vingegaard proposed to take it like this to Madrid. In a situation where he was actually BEHIND Roglic and obviously Kuss.
This was reaffirmed by him at the rest day but Roglic and his camp wanted to "race it out" on the road.
This is all well documented, see here:

And before you all scream "Visma propaganda", all these positions were well reported during the Vuelta, this wasn't some hindsight twisting. You can also see the teammeeting after the Tourmalet stage where Vingegaard proposes to keep it like that and no one is forcing Roglic to say "Yeah I wanted to win" into the camera.

So the team agreed to let them race and immidiately after the rest day, Bejes and the fallout happen. So Vingegaard actually followed team orders by "racing" although the whole proposition was obviously dumb in the first place. Even after Angliru he reiterates in the interview he wants Kuss to win the Vuelta and the team finally pull the plug on the "fighting it out on the roads" project.
Now I agree that Vingegaards reasonings for stage winning ("For my daughter, for my wife, for Nathan, for my cousins dog") are mostly nonsense but it's pretty stupid to call him a traitor or backstabber when his opinion gets overruled and when he actually follows through with the "new plan" the fandom of Slovenian Valverde gets outraged.

There's a huge caveat to what you're writing here: Immediately after Bejes, Sepp Kuss in a post-stage interview said they were targeting the stage with Rog. Vinge launched a surprise attack, basically, and his teammates were stuck in the group behind, i.e. not sure whether to attack (& pretty much chase down a teammate) or sit back and lose the Vuelta (Vinge came within half a minute of red and leapfrogged Rog). The gap on Bejes was not à la pédale'. Vinge fans and neutral observers that evening even attempted to claim Rog couldn't do any better than 'struggle' to follow Mas and Ayuso. But the Angliru 24 hours later showed that was hardly the case.

So... you do the math. Vinge won Tourmalet, whereas Bejes looked like a stomp stage on paper. Why did Kuss say they were aiming to win the stage with Rog? Why was the official version after the Vuelta different? I think we all know.